Are Electricians Being De-Valued?

[GLENNSPARK]

Thanks for the therapy guys. It's been a an education reading your comments and you've given me a chuckle. It appears to me that the electrical industry has de-valued itself and we are left with the consequences.

Like many of you I'm often astounded by the lack of knowledge shown by some "qualified" electricians that I've come across. I've always taken a pride in my ability to tackle most types of electrical work using common sense and learnt skills which were passed down through several generations of electricians. That could be the missing link in the training (and de-valuing) of many modern electricians. Even the best training centres can't give you the same depth of knowledge as learning from a veteran sparkie. That said, many would now wonder why you should need a depth of knowledge anyway!

Upgrading my qualifications has made me a better electrician but it won't guarantee me a job or a good wage. As many of your views have confirmed- "It's a sign of the times, and of the future".
You've helped me realise that I'm not alone in my dissatisfaction with my de-valued disposition. Perhaps I've simply been doing the job for too long!
Thanks again for your comments and your therapy.

is it our fault?? ....Hmm? no one likes to admit guilt do they ....lol...but theres a thing called stealth n all......

 

[Welchyboy]

Dave 85 I agree with you totally, I earn more than most of the trades I work with, (except probably heating engineers)and they are allways winding me up about my new van and my prices, but hey.... They are still using me regularly and have done for years, because I leave them with a finished job that's worth the money

I think the JIB card is also a good idea, just shame about the rates, no 5 week wonder is goin to get one of those in a hurry, it just really irks me that all these suppose 'proper sparks moan soooo much about only getting a trainee card and having to do an NVQ 3, FFS JUST DO IT AND STOP MOANING ITS EASY!!
If you regularly do agency work and big site installs I don't know how you get on without one as alot of agency's require them, and they mostly dont stick to the rates they pay more, they use it as a sign of competance.

then again maybe that's why so many are in and out of work and feel so threatened by an ex-office worker whose done a few weeks electrical training!

Sad fact of the modern world is that it is constantly changing and advancing and to stay with the game you will have to keep re- training throughout your whole career even though companies will use it to make money from us, it's a case of go with it and be a commodity or get left behind!

 

[Des 56]

A JIb card being held up as proof of competence ? as old Ebeneezer would say "Humbug"

Well,I have never in my life, held or needed a Jib card ( or even an "How to wear an hard hat Cis card" or whatever pathetic piece of paper they now require) and I have worked on sites large and small and in all sectors
In my self employed years,the Jib card has been completely irrelevant

The Jib card may have at one time, when it was introduced, became a yardstick for proof of competence
That is no longer the case,which is evident by the recent revolt by the large employers
At one time,membership of the ETU was by far the most recognised and accepted demonstration of some sort of aquisition which deemed a person an electrician

The world we live in is driven almost uniquely by low cost service, whatever industry you are in
If the item or the person can produce that outcome,any other factors/ like in our case competence. its just an added burden which only comes to light if there is dispute between the customer and the service provider (that is the reason there are so many issues with fast track sparks)

The market wants low cost,the finance is not there for adequate all round training, aka apprenticeships, because of those low costs, so its left to the individual to find his way.

The consequence is sparks trained with a narrow learning curve,mainly domestic installation
Changes in commercial and industrial installation are being pressured to follow this narrow skill base,hence the future disintegration of the Jib flag

JIb is not the answer,its like me,its best years have passed by
Electricians are not "being" devalued,they "have" been devalued and I mean status not monetary

 

[skirby]

Yes you definately need to keep up or be left behind in our game. I've never had a JIB card, always lucky to find my own work and do some subbying for small firms over the years, but I definately think it's a good idea to have one when looking for jobs etc. My lad is in his last year of training and I've told him to go for AM2, JIB, 17th, Testing... the lot. (Even though I've got experience, maybe I'd still need to get JIB card for agencies etc. ?)
About the moaning- I find having a good grumble every now and then does help release tension and I there's a lot of it about. Especially in this thread. High Tension from electricians. Sorry!

 

[Guitarist]

As with a lot of "education" these days, I think that many so-called electricians out there have been instructed enough to pass an exam, not given an all-round apprenticeship, hence many have never come across the practicalities of how to gland off swa or understand how a contactor works. We now even have Government Ministers referring to training courses which last a few weeks as "apprenticeships".
Maybe if we had a few people in Government who had actually experienced an apprenticeship, we might be able reverse this "dumbing-down" trend.
It really scares me that someone can go from stacking shelves to being an "electrician" in a few months and then go into peoples' homes. This has to be stopped.

 

[Engineer54]

As with a lot of "education" these days, I think that many so-called electricians out there have been instructed enough to pass an exam, not given an all-round apprenticeship, hence many have never come across the practicalities of how to gland off swa or understand how a contactor works. We now even have Government Ministers referring to training courses which last a few weeks as "apprenticeships".
Maybe if we had a few people in Government who had actually experienced an apprenticeship, we might be able reverse this "dumbing-down" trend.
It really scares me that someone can go from stacking shelves to being an "electrician" in a few months and then go into peoples' homes. This has to be stopped.

It's a few WEEKS mate, not a few months!!! I hope that scares you a little more!! lol!!
The question needs to be asked of these so-called politicians, would they be happy having one of these guy's that was stacking shelves a few weeks ago, coming into there home, and working on on THEIR homes electrical installation?? I suspect, most definitely NOT!!!

 

[madmac]

Very interesting thread and some good replies although I think you're all missing the point.
My thread covers all the issues spoke about on here (SMA's and the deskilling of our industry).
The reason why we are under valued in both monetary and respect criteria, is because of greed!!!
The training course providers, the scam regulatory bodies, the agencies leeching of us and of course the major electrical companies that have had a deskilling agenda for decades!
I understand most guys on this forum are working in domestic/commercial and are on the most part self employed businesses, however, we all used to come from the same place once upon a time i.e. an industry wide recognised apprenticeship that gave us the basic/core skills to work in all sectors of industry.
It has been mentioned a few times on here about an "electricians licensing scheme", well, we already have that, it's called the JIB/SJIB.
And before we slaughter the JIB's, remember, the the JIB's boards are made up of 50/50 representation from the employers representatives and the electricians representatives.
I.E. ECA/SELECT for the employers and Unite the Union for the electricians and the JIB board are the referees.
The JIB/SJIB are supposed to be non-profit making organisations ( there is a question mark over this and we are in the middle of trying to modernise the set up), The companies sign up to the "National Agreement for the Electrical Contracting Industry" and agree to abide by the rules which guarantee our wage rates and terms and conditions of employment and the men pay for a CSCS/ECS JIB/SJIB card and have to prove competence with apprentice papers or equivalent and also agree to abide by the rules which is to the employers advantage as they can tender for jobs knowing they have a quality, happy and stable workforce!
Of course, this is really only suited to the commercial/light industrial/heavy industrial/HV and other such like industries and is harder to involve the domestic sector.
But at the end of the day, we can all keep on moaning and lamenting days gone by or we can get active and voice our concerns and make a difference by joining the union and making this industry work for us again!!!
It's that simple really, if every spark in Britain was IN the union, we would be able to organise the training/apprenticeships and all the other issues that are relevant to becoming and staying a qualified electrician and being paid the fair wage we know we are worth. The card,scheme,qualifications and apprentice training are already there and always have been, we have just taken our eyes off the ball, that's all!!!

 

[Welchyboy]

A JIb card being held up as proof of competence ? as old Ebeneezer would say "Humbug"

Well,I have never in my life, held or needed a Jib card ( or even an "How to wear an hard hat Cis card" or whatever pathetic piece of paper they now require) and I have worked on sites large and small and in all sectors
In my self employed years,the Jib card has been completely irrelevant

The Jib card may have at one time, when it was introduced, became a yardstick for proof of competence
That is no longer the case,which is evident by the recent revolt by the large employers
At one time,membership of the ETU was by far the most recognised and accepted demonstration of some sort of aquisition which deemed a person an electrician

The world we live in is driven almost uniquely by low cost service, whatever industry you are in
If the item or the person can produce that outcome,any other factors/ like in our case competence. its just an added burden which only comes to light if there is dispute between the customer and the service provider (that is the reason there are so many issues with fast track sparks)

The market wants low cost,the finance is not there for adequate all round training, aka apprenticeships, because of those low costs, so its left to the individual to find his way.

The consequence is sparks trained with a narrow learning curve,mainly domestic installation
Changes in commercial and industrial installation are being pressured to follow this narrow skill base,hence the future disintegration of the Jib flag

JIb is not the answer,its like me,its best years have passed by
Electricians are not "being" devalued,they "have" been devalued and I mean status not monetary

Not all the economy is driven by low cost, cheap, cheap, cheap!

it depends on your customer base and your target market, if that was true there would be no marks and spencer only asda, there would be no porsche or ferrari only ford and fiat, there wouldnt be any nice resturants or fine wines it would be fish and chips and supermarket cider

People are looking for value for money!, as teasco have just found out they dropped the quality of their products to warrant their price reductions and look
how look at their recent sales drop

i know this is a bit general but is true in all forms of basic business, some people will allways shop bargain basement, just dont get them as your customers!

and sorry but right now the JIB card is the closest thing we have to any kind of definition of competance in this industry, it just needs enforcing across the board as a licence(not including the rates, just a measure of qualification) and Part P scrapped, job done!

i havent used mine since becoming selfemployed years ago but have allways kept it renewed as if the worst happened and i ended up on agencies i know i wouldnt get told no anywhere, or get paid as a trainee!

 

[oldboy]

Devalued? Undermined? Exploited?

Welcome to the wonderful world of deregulation, minimum wages, profiteering companies & agencies, the payroll scam, short termism, no rights at work, sod you Jack, I'm alright society where no one gives a s**t about anyone else.

This is happening everywhere in all walks of industry & society!!

I used to be apathetic, now I just don't care.

 

[Des 56]

Not all the economy is driven by low cost, cheap, cheap, cheap!

it depends on your customer base and your target market, if that was true there would be no marks and spencer only asda, there would be no porsche or ferrari only ford and fiat, there wouldnt be any nice resturants or fine wines it would be fish and chips and supermarket cider

People are looking for value for money!, as teasco have just found out they dropped the quality of their products to warrant their price reductions and look
how look at their recent sales drop

i know this is a bit general but is true in all forms of basic business, some people will allways shop bargain basement, just dont get them as your customers!

and sorry but right now the JIB card is the closest thing we have to any kind of definition of competance in this industry, it just needs enforcing across the board as a licence(not including the rates, just a measure of qualification) and Part P scrapped, job done!

i havent used mine since becoming selfemployed years ago but have allways kept it renewed as if the worst happened and i ended up on agencies i know i wouldnt get told no anywhere, or get paid as a trainee!

I dont agree with your assessment,however you have presented it well and you may be right
The ETU was by far a much better measure of the electricians status .it was a matter of pride to be a member,entry could be difficult to obtain ,it was tarnished so badly in the Chappel days that recovery to its former status could never happen

The industry JIb agreement is the only measure available at the moment,I agree,it is not however the arbitor of who or what is an electrican

There are so many electricians who neither work in that sector or carry out that type of work,that an organisation with what appears to be a very fragile future, ie the JIb, its not the yardstick for assessment of a spark in the future

It may be the best tool at the moment as an assessment of an electrician doing installation only,but some sort of government registration system is needed to cover all who work with electrics,branding and levels need to be compiled for any future structure for it to be an all encompassing answer to this industry

It will however never happen,this industry will continue on its downward slope with confusion and greed and mainly low cost as its driving force

 

[barleski]

"Part P" Is "Pathetic Practice" end of story !! There are Electricians and ELECTRICIANS !!
Ive met some good ones, and had people tell me how good they are ? Ive witnessed some of the work too, but some still get away with it on the fiddle !!
Regulatory Monitoring is a must, improvement is a must, and those of us genuine sparks know it.
There are good comments on here, but using us to the point of slave labour is an injustice to our integrity. Stop the devaluation stop the deskilling and stop people other than trained competent sparks doing our work, is the first step forward ! Then plan the RE- EVALUATION and make sure every one understands our STATUS and never again tries to undermine it !!

 

[madmac]

Des, when you are asked to renew your existing JIB/SJIB card, you are sent out a renewal form that has on the back page a list of some 13 different disciplines which cover a broad range of skills in the electrical industry and range from domestic through to distribution networks etc.
So it is simply not the case that the current JIB/SJIB set up isn't or can't deal with the complexities of the current systems but in fact have been over looked and forgotten about, in favour of non-representative, private, money making rackets in the guise of all these different inspection /regulatory bodies i.e. NICEIC,NAPIT and the rest of the cartel!
Where I do agree with you though, is the need to modernise the set up and maybe even come up with a totally new agreement, which is exactly what is being proposed at the moment via the National Combine Committee who were elected from the Rank and File union membership to spearhead talks with the employers associations and bolster the democratic mandate of the Union officials sitting around the big negotiation table.
This WILL benefit ALL electricians in all sectors, union members or not, JIB/SJIB card holders or not, young and old!
It's in all our interests to get involved and become part of the solution and halt the decline in standards!
As for "all encompassing", it could become the gold standard again for apprenticeships and basic qualifications before an electrician moves on to bigger and better things i.e. oil and gas, petrochem, renewables, HV, power stations etc etc.
It would also simplify the regulation of OUR industry and help to eradicate the greed that pervades every aspect of it!

 

[Des 56]

I will try and explain my posts a little differently,because the impression may be given that I dont see a need for regulation
That is not the case
Throughout my time in this industry,which has been all my working life,I supported and was proud to be a member of the ETU and its no nonsense acceptance of who may or may not become a member
That same union poured scorn itself by its actions in the newspaper disputes many years ago
I along with many others resigned from that union until at such time it returned to what it should have stuck to

The impression given to me by this thread is that the JIB is the way forward

I am sorry,but the way I see it, domestic installation was thrown to one side by the JIB with its lack of involvement when regulation of the useless part p fiasco was introduced
The JIb never got itself involved with the wider industry.at least the maintenance jobs I had in factories never had JIB involvement
The present JIB agreement is in turmoil,the installation industry has tried, and will continue to try and make it irrelevant by circumventing the role of a sparks in favour of bit trained installers for parts of the job(same as what has become of the electrican operating in domestic sector )

The recognition of what most would accept as what constitutes an electrician has never been set out in any government regulation,its only industry standards that have set the bar
I see no all encompassing role that the JIB could or will play in the future,thats if it has a future

There most definitely should be some sort of yardstick that measures competence,the industry has suffered enough with the domestic disaster
The niceic and the like with their QS systems, should be left to monitor standards of its own members, but in a framework where the qualification and competence of that electrician is decided elsewhere,possibly on a national register where all sectors can be assessed against given criteria
The JIB had the opportunity and has blown it,its time for independent regulation

 

[barleski]

I think its fundamentally evident to anyone with doubts of our overall well being as a trade, that we need to be recognised as we were when we were all members and brothers of the ETU.
We were the Kings Of Kings, whilst others were mere Princes !!

 

[Arnold Layne]

Des56, you make some really important points in your post as far as I can see. The most critical being that the JIB had its opportunity and has blown it. You are absolutely correct to say that the JIB abandoned the ground of domestic installation. It had nothing to offer on the issue. Further a charade has been perpetrated on the rest of the industry. People have been hoodwinked into believing that the JIB was some sort of independent body that set a standard. Not so, Summit Skills are responsible for the qualifications, but the JIB translate those qualifications into pay grades ( but let us not ignore the fact that this is done under an Industrial Relations agreement, which is not the same as an independent body focused on qualifications and standards) So horse trading ensues around money. Further one should look at who sits on the Summit Skills Board for the ECA... are Fire Alarm people really the best representatives of the industry? Do they really understand the full scope of qualifications required?

Further I think that there needs to be a separation between qualifications/experience required and pay rates. The two need to be judged separately of one another, hence another reason why the JIB should not be involved ,as it is an Industrial relations enterprise , not a standard setting body. And it is an enterprise, it generates revenue. The Gas Safe Register ( erstwhile CORGI) was/is a standard setting body, it does not concern itself with pay rates. Surely that is a model to follow if we are really interested in setting standards?

 

[PGTips]

Ifully agree with what has been said here. Unfortunately it is us the qualified whohave to pass more and more qualification to tell us that we can do our jobs,whilst companies employ Labourers, sorry “Electricians Mates” to actually dothe work of a qualified electrician.Thesepeople are masquerading in our industry passing themselves off as qualifiedElectricians.Thereis nobody to help protect the industry from this happening. One of thegoverning bodies promoted a lot of these types of people to the status ofElectrician, with no electrical qualifications at all. I’m old enough toremember them doing this, and the arguments that ensued on construction sitesbetween the Electricians and the recently made up labourers.Nobodycares anymore whether they give a qualified Electrician the work to do on aconstruction site, especially the employer because all it’s about is cost. Whypay an Electrician £14 to terminate an isolator, when the employer can pay anElectricians Mate £10 to do the same job?It’swrong but it’s happening everywhere in construction. I could give you a list ofcompanies all JIB all NICEIC who are doing this on a regular basis. I’m nottalking about dad and lad outfits either, these are medium to large sizedcompanies in the UK.Therespect for electricity and the dangers involved with what we do on a dailybasis has disappeared. What we as Electricians have to know and understand in thisindustry, has gone way beyond most people’s comprehension of the job descriptionof an Electrician.Weare generally the most academic and most qualified trade on a building site,although our pay packet in my experience of things doesn’t always reflect this.We are now in my opinion, the rubbing rags of the construction industry.Allrespect for electricity, electrical systems and there dangers if not installedcorrectly and tested and inspected thoroughly has evaporated in to thin air.Have go heroes and DIY Charlie’s now rolling their sleeves up, terminating andwiring circuits. When eventually there is a fatality or serious incident, (Ashas been published in IET documentation and also covered by other sources), dueto someone not knowing what they are doing or not being qualified to carry outthe work, then it is once again us the qualified who have to go and take more qualificationsat our own cost to prove our own worth.Oncethese qualifications are obtained the pay stays the same. In actual factemployers are now using this lame excuse of the on-going recession to lower payscales considerably.I’mafraid if I had a son or daughter; I could not say hand on heart that being anElectrician is a job with good prospects at this present time in the industrieslife. I certainly couldn’t and wouldn’t recommend them to enter this industryeven though it is a challenging and at times extremely interesting one.

 

[Sausage]

Ifully agree with what has been said here. Unfortunately it is us the qualified whohave to pass more and more qualification to tell us that we can do our jobs,whilst companies employ Labourers, sorry “Electricians Mates” to actually dothe work of a qualified electrician.Thesepeople are masquerading in our industry passing themselves off as qualifiedElectricians.Thereis nobody to help protect the industry from this happening. One of thegoverning bodies promoted a lot of these types of people to the status ofElectrician, with no electrical qualifications at all. I’m old enough toremember them doing this, and the arguments that ensued on construction sitesbetween the Electricians and the recently made up labourers.Nobodycares anymore whether they give a qualified Electrician the work to do on aconstruction site, especially the employer because all it’s about is cost. Whypay an Electrician £14 to terminate an isolator, when the employer can pay anElectricians Mate £10 to do the same job?It’swrong but it’s happening everywhere in construction. I could give you a list ofcompanies all JIB all NICEIC who are doing this on a regular basis. I’m nottalking about dad and lad outfits either, these are medium to large sizedcompanies in the UK.Therespect for electricity and the dangers involved with what we do on a dailybasis has disappeared. What we as Electricians have to know and understand in thisindustry, has gone way beyond most people’s comprehension of the job descriptionof an Electrician.Weare generally the most academic and most qualified trade on a building site,although our pay packet in my experience of things doesn’t always reflect this.We are now in my opinion, the rubbing rags of the construction industry.Allrespect for electricity, electrical systems and there dangers if not installedcorrectly and tested and inspected thoroughly has evaporated in to thin air.Have go heroes and DIY Charlie’s now rolling their sleeves up, terminating andwiring circuits. When eventually there is a fatality or serious incident, (Ashas been published in IET documentation and also covered by other sources), dueto someone not knowing what they are doing or not being qualified to carry outthe work, then it is once again us the qualified who have to go and take more qualificationsat our own cost to prove our own worth.Oncethese qualifications are obtained the pay stays the same. In actual factemployers are now using this lame excuse of the on-going recession to lower payscales considerably.I’mafraid if I had a son or daughter; I could not say hand on heart that being anElectrician is a job with good prospects at this present time in the industrieslife. I certainly couldn’t and wouldn’t recommend them to enter this industryeven though it is a challenging and at times extremely interesting one.

i have much to say in response to this, and i will shortly. However, in the meantime, can I suggest you separate your pertinent points into paragraphs for easier reading, as I nearly gave up after two sentences of this dense diatribe.

 

[Silly Sausage]

Had to have a cup of tea after reading that.

 

[Sausage]

OK, there are not , in my experience, people 'masquerading' as sparks on the jobs I have worked on. Sure, there are experienced 'mates' doing a job of a 'sparks' i.e. wiring and second fixing commercial installations, to be tested and signed off by someone else in the company. Often/ always installing on price. Do they describe themselves as 'sparks'? No. But the industry has put them in this position.

They are offered the work, and complete it to the required standard, signed off as being so by the company's QS. So these companies choose to 'employ' people to complete tasks which they are then happy to 'sign off'.

Is that the fault of the person doing the work? Or the fault of a system that allows this practice to happen?

 

[imago]

JIB and the/a Union running the show? They had their chance and instead of helping the compounded errors, made the situation worse, and flatly refused to listen to anyone who wasn't on a comitee or steering group. The JIB and the Unions are the two (or more depending on which Unions you want to refer to) organisations most responsible for the situation the industry is in today.

Thankfully the time of the Unions has passed, time for a new organisation of self-serving megalomaniacs to have a go.

 

[PGTips]

Sausage, if these people are not qualified to carry out thework then they shouldn't be doing it, simple as that. These people are takingthe food out of Electricians mouths all over the UK.
I don't know about your back ground in the electricalindustry but I did a five year JIB apprenticeship. I gained my paper andpractical qualifications up to Technician including my AM1 and AM2 and I’mregistered with the JIB. This took me a number of years of study and exams, anda lot of my personal time to pass these necessary exams and practicalqualifications to boot.
So how is it right that a labourer who brushes up against anElectrician in the pub can get on to a building site 1st and 2nd fix electricalsystems with no paper qualifications, on the proviso that a qualifiedInspection and tester certifies it all? With respect that is just madness.
I could teach a sibling how to terminate a socket, light, 3phase distribution board, a mechanised process etc etc etc. The point is thatthe person I was showing wouldn't understand why they were doing it andwouldn't officially be allowed to carry this work out unsupervised, but thistype of person is being left to their own devices on construction sites andcarrying out a qualified man’s work.
This attitude towards the electrical industry is what iskilling the trade, and skilled men’s jobs. Imagine if you could leave schoolthick as two short planks and then walk straight in to this industry with noregulation as an Electricians Mate, then start installing electrical systems onprice.
Very scary, but that is what's happening all over the UK.The dumbing down of a very dangerous and skilled industry and the allowing ofmorons to carry out works within this industry at the cost of qualified skilledmen.
Perhaps these Electricians Mates should be thrown in at thedeep end and left to their own devices on let’s say 11KV, and then there wouldbe a lot less of them.
Apologies for thefirst posting regarding this issue you raised about the grammar etc. I wrote itin word with paragraphs etc. Copied it and pasted it to the reply box and itdid what it did to the text, don't ask me why but there you go. Hope this one isn'tas hard for you to read.

 

[PGTips]

Its gone and done it again. What is it with this site and copying and pasting from Word? Sorry everyone.

 

[Guitarist]

Unfortunately, while other trades just choose to see that we "throw in a few wires", they will assume that it's all easy work that anyone can do.
It's actually part P which is keeping a lot of us going, as many trades think they can do the job, but realise that it will have to be signed off and notified.

 

[Sausage]

the situation you describe above where people thick as planks with no qualifications installing on price is something i have experienced first hand. I'm not saying i endorse it! I chose to go to college, get my 2330 levels 2 and 3, AM2, NVQ 3 and 17th edition. I wanted to do it properly and my ticket means I can go wherever I want and get paid the rate.

Although I have worked with these chancers, the only thing I'll say, is that they are trapped in the company that gives them this price work, and we all know who's pockets are getting lined!

 

[shagbite]

Unfortunately, while other trades just choose to see that we "throw in a few wires", they will assume that it's all easy work that anyone can do.
It's actually part P which is keeping a lot of us going, as many trades think they can do the job, but realise that it will have to be signed off and notified.

customers don't want to pay us what we're worth because at the end of a job, all they see is a 40 bob socket and a pendant drop. but they'll pay a mechanic 50 quid an hour, no problem. my mechanic wanted to charge me £200 to replace the osr caliper (mot failure). i sourced the part myself, for £43 + vat, and had it swapped over in 35 minutes. it's crazy.

while we're at it, i know a bloke who paid £800 to a roofer, to take down a chimney stack. it took the roofer, and his labourer, 6 and a half hours to complete this job. now, if we assume that the scaffolding cost a couple of hundred quid and the labourer £100 (it was a saturday), this fellas raked in 500 notes for just over half a day's graft - and it was cash in hand! i'm in the wrong job.

 

[Guitarist]

customers don't want to pay us what we're worth because at the end of a job, all they see is a 40 bob socket and a pendant drop. but they'll pay a mechanic 50 quid an hour, no problem. my mechanic wanted to charge me £200 to replace the osr caliper (mot failure). i sourced the part myself, for £43 + vat, and had it swapped over in 35 minutes. it's crazy.

while we're at it, i know a bloke who paid £800 to a roofer, to take down a chimney stack. it took the roofer, and his labourer, 6 and a half hours to complete this job. now, if we assume that the scaffolding cost a couple of hundred quid and the labourer £100 (it was a saturday), this fellas raked in 500 notes for just over half a day's graft - and it was cash in hand! i'm in the wrong job.

You can also say this about many plumbers who get called out. I constantly get told stories by my customers who have paid hundreds out for an hours work (plus materials) to replace a ballcock or fix a leak.
The best one I heard was someone who had a header tank replaced on a Sunday. Took the plumber about half the day (including a trip to a certain DIY store) and the bill was £1.5k !!!

 

[whitestu]

You can also say this about many plumbers who get called out. I constantly get told stories by my customers who have paid hundreds out for an hours work (plus materials) to replace a ballcock or fix a leak.
The best one I heard was someone who had a header tank replaced on a Sunday. Took the plumber about half the day (including a trip to a certain DIY store) and the bill was £1.5k !!!

Read more:

So why aren't there loads of people competing for this type of work thus driving the price down. It doesn't make any sense.

 

[Guitarist]

So why aren't there loads of people competing for this type of work thus driving the price down. It doesn't make any sense.

Basically, people panick and get the first plumber out who can sort their problem. It's only once they get the bill that their eyes pop out. Also, every plumber I've spoken to in my area is booked up for at least 8 weeks.
I definitely chose the wrong profession...

 

[imago]

customers don't want to pay us what we're worth because at the end of a job, all they see is a 40 bob socket and a pendant drop. but they'll pay a mechanic 50 quid an hour, no problem. my mechanic wanted to charge me £200 to replace the osr caliper (mot failure). i sourced the part myself, for £43 + vat, and had it swapped over in 35 minutes. it's crazy.

while we're at it, i know a bloke who paid £800 to a roofer, to take down a chimney stack. it took the roofer, and his labourer, 6 and a half hours to complete this job. now, if we assume that the scaffolding cost a couple of hundred quid and the labourer £100 (it was a saturday), this fellas raked in 500 notes for just over half a day's graft - and it was cash in hand! i'm in the wrong job.

The thing is, by making assumptions like that you're doing the same thing as the people complaining about electrician's rates. So lets look at the roofer's costs for that half day. Scaffolding the front of a house, @£300:00, a skip £120:00 because all waste has to be carried by a licensed carrier, the labourer more like £80:00 to be honest. So that's £400:00. Out of the remaining £400:00 he has to pay public liability which is almost double the usual because he's working above the roof line, tools like ladders have to be commercial grade, running a van, materials to cap the hole where the stack was. Then account for him loosing half his weekend.

Bitching between the trades is OK as a bit of banter, but when the green eye comes into play no one wins.

 

[Guitarist]

The thing is, by making assumptions like that you're doing the same thing as the people complaining about electrician's rates. So lets look at the roofer's costs for that half day. Scaffolding the front of a house, @£300:00, a skip £120:00 because all waste has to be carried by a licensed carrier, the labourer more like £80:00 to be honest. So that's £400:00. Out of the remaining £400:00 he has to pay public liability which is almost double the usual because he's working above the roof line, tools like ladders have to be commercial grade, running a van, materials to cap the hole where the stack was. Then account for him loosing half his weekend.

Bitching between the trades is OK as a bit of banter, but when the green eye comes into play no one wins.

Unless he's one of those guys who works off a ladder. We can't assume anything, good or bad

 

[imago]

Unless he's one of those guys who works off a ladder. We can't assume anything, good or bad

If he can take down a chimney stack from a ladder then he deserves a lot more than £800:00!

 

[shagbite]

The thing is, by making assumptions like that you're doing the same thing as the people complaining about electrician's rates. So lets look at the roofer's costs for that half day. Scaffolding the front of a house, @£300:00, a skip £120:00 because all waste has to be carried by a licensed carrier, the labourer more like £80:00 to be honest. So that's £400:00. Out of the remaining £400:00 he has to pay public liability which is almost double the usual because he's working above the roof line, tools like ladders have to be commercial grade, running a van, materials to cap the hole where the stack was. Then account for him loosing half his weekend.

Bitching between the trades is OK as a bit of banter, but when the green eye comes into play no one wins.

why criticise me for making assumptions on the scaffold and the labourer's wage, and then go and make your own assumptions? you also assume that there was a skip, when there wasn't. this is because the chimney was lovely old york stone, which the customer (a relative of mine) wanted to keep. i don't know about his public liability costs, but if they're double what i pay, then he'll be forking out about £130 a year. this equates to about 30 odd pence a day. even if it were five times my assumption, that's still less than £1.80 a day. you'll have to forgive me, but i'm going to make a couple more assumptions, based on the info' you've put in your reply - i'm guessing £20 for diesel and £30 for materials. factor in these expenses and the fella's walking away with over £56 an hour - in his hand. i'm all for someone making good money, but this bloke's on over £100 an hour. and before you say anything, i realise not all his jobs will pay this well. problem is, my relatives employed the first bloke that rocked up on their doorstep. i know loads of builders and roofers and i know, if they'd asked me, i could have got it done for half what they paid. you're right about the banter, i'm all for it. trouble is, you're also right about the envy - the most i've ever been paid for working a saturday is £38 an hour - before tax.

 

[imago]

I didn't citicise you for making assumptions, I was pointing out that there's no difference between you doing it and anyone else. Equally saying that you could have got the job done for much less so can anyone who knows a cheaper electrician.

In my opinion, and it's just that, and opinion, there's no problem with someone charging a higher rate for a job than it could be done for elsewhere. People can get quotes and compare them, or just go with whoever gives them the first price. It's their choice and if they don't want to, can't be bothered to, don't know how to, check out prices then they can pay the agreed price.

There is a problem with poor quality materials and bad workmanship. I have customers who don't get quotes from anyone, me included, they just ask for whatever to be done. I don't doubt for a minute that there are cheaper sparks available, but they don't look for them. Why? Because either they, or someone they know has had a bad experience in the past.

Again, I'm not having a go at you, just using the example you've given when I say that you aren't happy with what he charged but don't say he did a bad job. If he did a good job, and they were happy to pay for it, where's the problem?

 

[shagbite]

i guess the problem lies with the perceived injustice that arises when hourly rates are compared between trades. i'm lucky if i get £13 an hour these days, and i've got qualifications coming out of my eyeballs. call it jealousy, call it envy, but ultimately, it comes down to fairness. as electricians we have, arguably, the most responsibility on site, yet we're gradually becoming the least paid. with regards to the roofer; i guess his workmanship was acceptable but he left a hell of a mess when he'd left.

can i just say aswell, that i understand where you're coming from when you imply that it's hypocritical to whinge about other trade's rates and then, castigate our own customers for trying to get us as cheap as possible. but do you honestly believe that we get what we deserve - in comparison to other trades? somehow, our trade has gone from being a respectable, well paid job into an average paid job that everyone thinks they can do when they get in from work. after all, it's only 3 wires.

 

[imago]

I've no arguement with what you and others are saying about electrcian's rates, I agree completely. Rather than the other trades being paid too much, I think we should be concentrating on getting paid more. I never sell my services or promote my business based on price. I also never negotiate when I get the "Can you do it a bit cheaper?" question.

If we (electricians) look at the businesses and products which cost most they are all sold either on quality or exclusivity. Cars, computers, white goods, houses, groceries etc etc there are plenty of examples of items within a competative market which do the same things as their counterparts, but they are either marketed better, or are of a higher quality. The most recognised brand name in the world is Coke, yet there are plenty of equally refressing colas available. Why do they sell so much? Jaguar/Land Rover was on it's arse a few years back, then it made a recovery, not by making them cheaper, they actually increased the prices along with sorting out quality issues which didn't come anywhere near justifying the price increase. On and on the list goes.

The answer IMHO is to get the representative bodies to start banging the electrian's drum. ECA, ELECSA, NAPIT, NIC, JIB etc etc. Once the public's perception is changed to reflect the standards and training required to do the job properly people will accept the higher charges. I don't like marketing BS, but electrical work isn't 'sexy' enough. A guy I did a job for recently happily spent far more for his granite worktop than he did on the rewire, and he didn't bat an eyelid.

The electrical industry sat on it's collective behind and let other trades raise their profiles without challenge. Until it collectively realises that the time has come to play catch up it will be up to individual businesses and electricians to market themselves as best they can.

If brickies were on a grand a day electricians and plumbers would be perfectly happy. As long as they were on two.

 

[Welchyboy]

I cant beleive how long this has been goin on for

The bottom line is if your working on a wage for someone else you'll NEVER earn more than an average wage and will allways be at the mercy of supply and demand factors, and right now your up poo creek as demand is low and supply is high, that's the trade off that allows you to go home at 5 o'clock every night and completely forget about work till the next day
if you own your own business or work for your self then it's down to YOU how much money you can make depending on how you operate your business, how good you are, how shrewd you are and how much hard work you put in,

it just drains me when so many 'sparks' think that just because they done a few years at college it gives them a life long right to earn loads a cash, sorry the world dont work like that!


I don't think electricians are any more de-valued than anyone else,

And in a way things have not looked better for anybody skilled with electrics

But it seems It's allways someone else's fault, the poles, the economy, 5week
*wonders etc etc etc yawn!!!!

 

[shagbite]

you can't believe how long this has been going on for, yet here you are, adding to it.

 

[Guitarist]

Have to agree, you'll never make a great living by working for someone else.

 

[vjsmarwick]

The moment they start 6 week crash courses and handing out sparky tickets to labourers that have never done an once of training then our once great trade is doomed I don't know everything far from it.
I have been reading some of the questions asked on the site and I wonder if some even know the basics and can they read a wiring diagram.
I am first to admit when it comes to electronics I am lost but I recon I could wire almost anything armed with the drawing.
Common sense is a great thing and I know it's better to ask if your not sure but come on guys are we giving advice to fellow sparks or to the DIY guys we all curse for ? It's a pity there is no way we could confirm members at least have some qualifications.

 

[Guitarist]

It's normally easy to tell the DIY questions from the electricians. Personally, I have no problem giving certain advice to DIY'ers, but I draw the line when it is obvious that they are putting themselves and others at risk.