Discuss Are Electricians Being De-Valued? in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

also its a money maker in that i have spoken to some people who came to electrics at a late stage and were once er bus drivers for example who say if bus driving money went up to above a sparks wage that they would go back to it. where i believe us old uns would stay in the trade as we enjoy it ( well not enjoy it exactly but you know what i mean)

also the course for meter fitting in london the london electricity has 2 grades of fitter 1 does old meters and 1 does new meters
unbelievable
 
So now everybody wants to be a spark and these training centres are cropping up and no one realises that training alone doesn't magically make you a competent spark so the countries now flooded with highly qualified but inexperienced sparks....

Highly Qualified?? ....By who's standard for god's sake?? Training Centre trained electricians are anything but highly trained, not even a core qualification to be seen. These training centre's set there course levels low, to match the Part Pee providers entry levels, then add a couple of non-plus courses like Pat Testing, to make them look attractive to the unsuspecting punters that there looking to catch, then fictitiously promising that these punters will be Qualified after 5 to 7 weeks!!!

That's part of the problem in the industry these day's, ''Under Qualified and Inexperienced'' electricians posing as being Qualified Competent electricians!!!
 
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My collegue left my old firm and did a slow down job to retirement as tech adviser on RS Components trade counter kinda finding the right product for the customers needs, now considering its mainly the commercial/industrial electrical and mechanical trades using rs of those coming in who consider themselves electricians he told me that he would honestly class about 1 in 20 who new their job and he was numb with shock as to the questions he was asked by said tradesman and in house sparkies for big companies:- Example A

-Can i have a contactor exactly the same as this one?
No its obsolete but we can supply an alternative.
-OK il have one.

-Contactor was brought back same day saying the terminals are not in the same position as the old one
is that a big problem?
-well i drew a picture of the old connections and now my picture wont be right
well cant you extend the wires to the new terminal position then?
-Oh hadn't thought of that!!!!..........
Example B:-

-Electrician brought a resistor in all burnt out and a charred mess (no colour code left) and said can you replace this?
Of course, im sure we will have something to fit, now what size resistor do you need?
-Dont know, cant you tell me?
Ermmm! no! not really its burnt away the coded bands.
-Well cant you guess?
No we stock a range of resistors numbering in the 100's of thousands and have access to millions on request so i cant guess really.
-Well what am i going to do then.
I can only suggest you try get a circuit board layout plan and identify the resistor if electronics are not your thing or ring tech of the manufacturers.
- Oh well erm im a Electrician and got the job because i said i can do machine maintenance but was thinking id be replacing broken buttons and burnt out connectors so didn't realise it would be this difficult.
Sorry can't help (speechless comes to mind).

Example 3

-I need a limit switch for an escalator (he then shows a corroded limit switch with info missing)
What rating was it?
-Well this was 24v but i dont do 24v stuff so gonna do new one in 230v as the transformers burnt out too.
Why did it burn out then?
-Water had pooled at the bottom of the ecalator and shorted something and also corroded this so decided to put a more powerful voltage in this time.
Well im happy to replace this part with what you ask and it is rated for both voltages but may i give a little advice and suggest you keep the system as you found it as i suspect doing what you intend would be dangerous.
- no its ok im a sparky and know what im doing!!

These weren't isolated incident this was a daily thing and i heard so many stories im starting to realise the gov' pushes quick qual' sparkies into the system who are not prepared just to get the unemployment figures down, i did 3.5yrs with apprenticeship to get what electricians are doing in 1.5yrs and they say it hasn't been dumbed down, not directly the fault of the new generation but it explains alot of the questions asked on this site as they are just fast tracked and lack the indepth knowledge that was taught many yrs ago.

And lastly in response to OP's question, the industry is been attacked from a few directions with dodgy trademans shows on tv making customer believe everyones dodgy, to as mentioned above the de-skilling of new generation and also the economic climate which means alot of possible custom is looking for cheaper cash in hand jobs which leaves less work for those who should be doing it thus reduction in price we can charge to attract jobs.
 
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I still don't get how having another hoop to jump through and another subscription to pay (you don't think this will be free do you?) will be of any help to anyone.
We have the JIB skills card which proves you have a certain level of relevant training, and we have part P who do some kind of regular practical assessment.
You want a "national register" or "electricians' licence"? Well there are already about 6 of the things - take your pick.

Take Smudge's example of 2 electricians above - the one least likely to be able to get his 'licence' would be the old guy who trained 40 years ago and thinks he knows it all; his response would most likely be "well I don't need some new-fangled licence to tell me I'm an electrician - I've been doing this job for 40 years!" Then not all electricians will join it, thereby it will only be the ones trying to do things 'by the book' who join the scheme and pay the subscription, and we end up with yet another pointless money-making scam which isn't worth buttons.
As I've said we already have a skills card and we already have practical assessments and a 'competent persons' scheme' in the form of part P - wouldn't it be better to make those work rather than taking pot luck with something new?
Sod's law dictates that this new thing which everyone seems to want will just take all the worst elements of the existing schemes and package them together in one expensive bundle, then after the honest tradesmen who this is supposed to help have shelled out thousands it will be back to square one with some electricians calling for a 'gas safe for electricians'.
 
So many good points on this thread dont know where to start....

Its similar to people that come out of uni with degrees in construction this that and the other but give them a drill and wouldnt know what end to hold it properly.

The nvq was supposed to allievate the problem of these quick fix "become a fully qualified electrician in 8 weeks" as it is on the job trainig as every probably knows !

IMO can not beat a full apprenticeship. It gives you solid, time served worthwhile training and more to the point what comes with 3-4 year apprenticeship is the up most respect for the trade, the credentials needed in order to carry out the job effiecently and safely and respect for those that you learned from and those who are more knowledgeable than yourself. I havent met people on this site in the person but you have instant respect for a fellow sparks on here who you can just tell have that greater experience and knowledge !!

I wouldnt be any ither trade ! I think we are being de-valued

I have been in it for 10 years now 4 year apprenticeship (with nvq) 2360 pt 1 & 2 and 2391 and i occasionally have a n apprentice and he shows me his assignments and course work and it bearly touches what we done in the first 6 months and he is a 3rd year apparently !!
 
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To the OP....
I know what you are getting at, its all a bit of a p*** take the constant regs updates and what not but I dont let it get to me. I'm the type of person that if I dont agree with something, Im not gonna go out of my way to pay too much attention to it. That said I take a lot of pride in my work and always ensure everything I install is as safe as it can possibly be.
Im young and have only ever known the post part P days but personally I dont have a problem with the way things are. I've been self employed since I was 22 and always done Ok out of it. Most of the electricians I know still make significantly more money than other trades.

I understand this does not represent the industry as a whole and that there are self employed experienced qual'd sparkies out there working for next to nothing but thats life....
Heres the way I see it....
The western world is f**ked...
Its not a reccession thats magically gonna dissapear one day and we'll all be rich again....
Its just f**ked.
Noone can get a job in the UK anymore, every tom dick and harry has a degree which isn't worth the paper its printed on. Then they hear these rumours that electricians make good money...Funnily enough its always the response I get when I tell somoeone my job "oooh good money..." in a rather patronizing way, I can't see them saying that to stockbrokers but hey ho....
So now everybody wants to be a spark and these training centres are cropping up and noone realises that training alone doesn't magically make you a competent spark so the countries now flooded with highly qualified but inexperienced sparks....
So yeah the moneys no good anymore for site/agency work...
But all trades are suffering its not just ours...

Personally I am glad I became a spark and would never do anything else. I like the work, the responsibility, the money..... hell I even like part P.
yes well it was just on the friday just gone that i was splitting tails via a henley into a DP iso and then into a small C/U via an armoured when i smelt gas coming from the meter box directly below the one i was working in....theres a couple of gas lads that the kitchen fitters on site know so they came out to take a look.....was talkin to one of em about how things were in the gas trade and he said he would rather have gone down the electricians route if he could have done it again...now, he`s been trading as a gas man for 10 odd years and he said that theres all this undercutting going on like 5 week wonders and pat testers n all that lot so we aint on our own fellas....seems to me its everywere....
 
.....was talkin to one of em about how things were in the gas trade and he said he would rather have gone down the electricians route if he could have done it again...now, he`s been trading as a gas man for 10 odd years and he said that theres all this undercutting going on like 5 week wonders and pat testers n all that lot so we aint on our own fellas....seems to me its everywere....
That reinforces what I was saying about this idea of some kind of 'licence' - if gas safe isn't working for gas men how can we expect a copy of it to help us?

As you say it seems to have happened in every job imaginable - the police have PCSOs, ambulancemen have EMTs and fast response bikes, teachers have 'teaching assistants' - all seemingly serving as a separate support job rather than being a training stage like a kitchen porter (washer up) training to be a chef, or a 'mate' training to be a spark. The difference seems to be that domestic installers and 'PAT testers' tend to work independently of electricians with the sole purpose of saving a bit of cash.

If you look at how services like banking have gone, where you have to speak to a different department for every aspect rather than walking into the bank and speaking to the bank manager - it's clear that the idea behind this is so someone can walk in off the street, be given a 5 week course in that and just do that specific thing all day instead of training every aspect of the job.
I can see it getting worse for us - on big jobs I reckon installations might be designed by a designer on a computer, a containment installer will go in and put in the containment, then a wireman will go in and put the wires in, then someone else will do the final connections, then someone else will inspect and test it, instead of having fully qualified sparks doing the lot.
You can imagine the buck-passing that will happen when something goes wrong - 'too many chefs spoil the broth' as they say, but it might save a bit of cash, and money makes the world go round.
 
That reinforces what I was saying about this idea of some kind of 'licence' - if gas safe isn't working for gas men how can we expect a copy of it to help us?

As you say it seems to have happened in every job imaginable - the police have PCSOs, ambulancemen have EMTs and fast response bikes, teachers have 'teaching assistants' - all seemingly serving as a separate support job rather than being a training stage like a kitchen porter (washer up) training to be a chef, or a 'mate' training to be a spark. The difference seems to be that domestic installers and 'PAT testers' tend to work independently of electricians with the sole purpose of saving a bit of cash.

If you look at how services like banking have gone, where you have to speak to a different department for every aspect rather than walking into the bank and speaking to the bank manager - it's clear that the idea behind this is so someone can walk in off the street, be given a 5 week course in that and just do that specific thing all day instead of training every aspect of the job.
I can see it getting worse for us - on big jobs I reckon installations might be designed by a designer on a computer, a containment installer will go in and put in the containment, then a wireman will go in and put the wires in, then someone else will do the final connections, then someone else will inspect and test it, instead of having fully qualified sparks doing the lot.
You can imagine the buck-passing that will happen when something goes wrong - 'too many chefs spoil the broth' as they say, but it might save a bit of cash, and money makes the world go round.
well you have always had installers...then inspectors and testers...QS`s n all that but i get your drift Adam....the scenario we have now is theres lots of delegation...its like pass the buck....everyone wants to be recognised...to feel necessary and important.....but no one wants the responsibility that comes with it.....to have to make decisions..but to also have to stand by those decisions and be answerable to them....having different jobs and departments....delegating is a very crafty way of providing a barrier for those at the top whilst giving off the image that those below are in some sort of responsible position together with their own desk and telesales headphones....may even get a high sounding title to go with it..lol...not that it means owt much of the time...like style over substance...hell,.just take a look at the yearly candidates on the apprentice....trust me sir Allen...your wasting your 250K on them clowns....i wouldn`t pay em with brass washers..lol...
 
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Good post this.its nothing new unfortunately. Afew years back I was doing a commercial refit,quite a full on job and I was right up against it.i was speaking to the foreman painter and he was on about 20 quid a week less than me for splattering a wall with emulsion! While I had bus bar chambers micc cabling sub mains fire alarms lift motor rooms heating plant etc etc etc to deal with.i was taught old school and was shown how to fix a Hoover junior to heavy industrial stuff, and I liked it all as this is what was expected from you as a spark. now it is so pigeon holed into sub sections of "specialists" that it's bound to drive respect /wages down. As in I can't do that fire alarm u need a specialist absolute Pish n we all know it.add to the mix the fact that a lot of younger electricians do not seem to have any in depth understanding of what they are actually doing and don't seem to care either and it's no wonder that respect is not due any more.i do think that a few years back the colleges tried to sex up the course a bit cos they couldn't attract young ones to the trade.
an example being I affirm I worked for gave me a 4 th year lad for a couple of days. He was telling me about his project designing a shopping centre install! When was he ever gonna use any of that photo metric data etc ever? Asked him if he had done much conduit and he said I've threaded a bit!!! 4 th year?i spent 2 days showing him the ropes on conduit work n he is probably all the better for it.
 
i know 'sparks' who have never glanded an armoured, made off a pyro, installed a fire alarm/intruder alarm, wouldnt know what a contactor was, have never tested, those who have 'tested' then i check the results and well ...

i aint no superspark and dont claim to be but i have worked with some clowns lol
 
i had a lad in yr2 of college he'd done a yrs without onsite experience so i gave hime benefit of doubt, i left him doing basics of fixing a conduit run in plastic when i return he hadn't done anything and his excuse was "i cant work out which way to turn the screw"......gobsmacked !!!! next lad was asked to calculate how many 3's in 24, in answer to a a question about voltage ratings but that aside he answered 6 and when i said 'are you stupid' he said '7'!....... ive now realised the dumbing down of schools and colleges is no longer debatable and we are getting flooded with a generation of ill educated idiots..... i mean 18yrs old and he couldn't do 3 x table but yet he had passed maths in school.......even had one lad who couldn't get the cut plastic trunking in a straight line even with a set-square line so he threw his tools down and put his hand through the hotel window......
ps all above had immediate sacking!
 
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I still don't get how having another hoop to jump through and another subscription to pay (you don't think this will be free do you?) will be of any help to anyone.
We have the JIB skills card which proves you have a certain level of relevant training, and we have part P who do some kind of regular practical assessment.
You want a "national register" or "electricians' licence"? Well there are already about 6 of the things - take your pick.

Take Smudges example of 2 electricians above - the one least likely to be able to get his 'licence' would be the old guy who trained 40 years ago and thinks he knows it all; his response would most likely be "well I don't need some new-fangled licence to tell me I'm an electrician - I've been doing this job for 40 years!" Then not all electricians will join it, thereby it will only be the ones trying to do things 'by the book' who join the scheme and pay the subscription, and we end up with yet another pointless money-making scam which isn't worth buttons.
As I've said we already have a skills card and we already have practical assessments and a 'competent persons' scheme' in the form of part P - wouldn't it be better to make those work rather than taking pot luck with something new?
Sod's law dictates that this new thing which everyone seems to want will just take all the worst elements of the existing schemes and package them together in one expensive bundle, then after the honest tradesmen who this is supposed to help have shelled out thousands it will be back to square one with some electricians calling for a 'gas safe for electricians'.

Your Wrong!! Having a National Register of Qualified Electricians, you wouldn't need the Scam providers, the JIB or any other body to pay dues too!! If you have the Qualifications and the experience to match, why would you need anything other than your registration ID card??

The difference having a NRQE, is that All electricians will need to be registered in order to ply for any paid work. It also needs to have the teeth to police the system against those that will flout the system, i don't think any of the present voluntary organisations have any teeth at all!!

The one thing you don't want to see happen, is any private profit based companies being contracted in to run the system. It needs to be Government or pseudo government run organisation that pays for it's self and doesn't treat you as captured cash cows, similar to the way a lot of these charity organisations are run...
 
Your Wrong!! Having a National Register of Qualified Electricians, you wouldn't need the Scam providers, the JIB or any other body to pay dues too!! If you have the Qualifications and the experience to match, why would you need anything other than your registration ID card??

The difference having a NRQE, is that All electricians will need to be registered in order to ply for any paid work. It also needs to have the teeth to police the system against those that will flout the system, i don't think any of the present voluntary organisations have any teeth at all!!

The one thing you don't want to see happen, is any private profit based companies being contracted in to run the system. It needs to be Government or pseudo government run organisation that pays for it's self and doesn't treat you as captured cash cows, similar to the way a lot of these charity organisations are run...
well you know that i have recently joined a scheme eng....and i wouldn`t blame you for lookin down on it....but its a means to an end....customers arn`t interested in all the LABC jargon...as has been said already on another thread recently..all they want is the work doing to industry standard and a cert issued to em.....sadly in many cases they get neither.....
 
The problem with policing the system is it has to be based on the quality of the electrician but since all the registered boards out there get financial gain out of members they will turn many a blind eye to bodgit companies, the flaw is the companies choose what the NICEIC etc visit to evaluate the member but i know so many dodgy practices that just do 4 relevent jobs a year for inspection and cut corners everywhere else, it should be a lottery inspection thus meaning all jobs have to meet standards and try grass a company up for a potentially dangerous practice and all the niceic do is nothing ...... makes sense when kicking them out will lose money... ive had this direct argument with an niceic rep' and put forward a company under their wing who had nearly killed a customer due to poor workmanship as i followed the job on and they replied all our inspections dont suggest what you claim ... they have a good track record to which i said yes to the jobs they dare show you..... sorry sir cant do anything...... NICEIC are good at testing your knowledge and checking your chosen jobs but they are sh...e at using there membership as an advantage to keeping companies in check just because they will lose money kicking ppl out. Think about the board room meetings ....if someone isnt up to our standards we will slap their hand and say naughty but we still need your money for the profit margin so dont do it again!!!!
 
The problem with policing the system is it has to be based on the quality of the electrician but since all the registered boards out there get financial gain out of members they will turn many a blind eye to bodgit companies, the flaw is the companies choose what the NICEIC etc visit to evaluate the member but i know so many dodgy practices that just do 4 relevant jobs a year for inspection and cut corners everywhere else, it should be a lottery inspection thus meaning all jobs have to meet standards and try grass a company up for a potentially dangerous practice and all the niceic do is nothing ...... makes sense when kicking them out will lose money... Ive had this direct argument with an niceic rep' and put forward a company under their wing who had nearly killed a customer due to poor workmanship as i followed the job on and they replied all our inspections don't suggest what you claim ... they have a good track record to which i said yes to the jobs they dare show you..... sorry sir cant do anything...... NICEIC are good at testing your knowledge and checking your chosen jobs but they are sh...e at using there membership as an advantage to keeping companies in check just because they will lose money kicking ppl out. Think about the board room meetings ....if someone isnt up to our standards we will slap their hand and say naughty but we still need your money for the profit margin so don't do it again!!!!


Companies can do what they want, if they want to join NICEIC that's up to them!! The NRQE is for registering qualified electricians not companies. There will be no incentive to cast a blind eye to incompetent electricians applying for registration, so if found incompetent, or not up to the required standard, then they fail!!! The NIC is like all the other providers, you would need to be an absolute pillock not to pass one of there so called assessments!!
 
Companies can do what they want, if they want to join NICEIC that's up to them!! The NRQE is for registering qualified electricians not companies. There will be no incentive to cast a blind eye to incompetent electricians applying for registration, so if found incompetent, or not up to the required standard, then they fail!!! The NIC is like all the other providers, you would need to be an absolute pillock not to pass one of there so called assessments!!
In theory your point is good in the eye of our clients/customers the NICEIC is the bees knees so you can argue the credibility of any other scheme or membership till blue in the face but honestly how many of the general public will if they are cautious see the NRQE as a guide.... unfortunately with all the advertising etc Part P is the only thing the domestic gen' know.... glad im industrial.# But see and agree with your point but it just dont work like that.
 
In theory your point is good in the eye of our clients/customers the NICEIC is the bees knees so you can argue the credibility of any other scheme or membership till blue in the face but honestly how many of the general public will if they are cautious see the NRQE as a guide.... unfortunately with all the advertising etc Part P is the only thing the domestic gen' know.... glad i'm industrial.# But see and agree with your point but it just dont work like that.

Customers won't need to know anything about Pat Pee, NICEIC or any of the other providers or bodies, all they need to see is the electricians registration ID card!! As far as i know, none of the providers even issue ID cards to there registered members, so the ID card alone, has to be a beneficial customer safe guard, than the system you have now.
 
Customers won't need to know anything about Pat Pee, NICEIC or any of the other providers or bodies, all they need to see is the electricians registration ID card!! As far as i know, none of the providers even issue ID cards to there registered members, so the ID card alone, has to be a beneficial customer safe guard, than the system you have now.
As i said before agree and all good in a perfect world but look at kids with id cards in pubs printed out and posted within 24hrs look like legit driving licence or proof of age cards, its like the 1 in 30 pound coins you handle is fake but you cant tell unless pre-educated so o matter what you bring in it will be flooded with the fake and scammers, the only way ive ever found to be useful is word of mouth and high personel standards, i get random phone calls now from all over yorkshire from word of mouth and ive never advertised in the 3 yrs ive been self-employed.... ppl are realising on the good word again as trust in what they see is losing credibilty more n more.
 
Dont get me wrong E54 its just how its happening and although it would be ideal what you say and yes will go with it 100% but reality is not the same, im talking at a domestic customer level here as bigger companies do look for the recognised memberships btut domestic wise only thing some recognise is Part P and will even choose it against a NICEIC registration, its the way the cowboy shows have advertised it and promoted Part P.... Just remember the general public watch TV and dont read the pro' electricians mag.
 
Thanks for the therapy guys. It's been a an education reading your comments and you've given me a chuckle. It appears to me that the electrical industry has de-valued itself and we are left with the consequences.

Like many of you I'm often astounded by the lack of knowledge shown by some "qualified" electricians that I've come across. I've always taken a pride in my ability to tackle most types of electrical work using common sense and learnt skills which were passed down through several generations of electricians. That could be the missing link in the training (and de-valuing) of many modern electricians. Even the best training centres can't give you the same depth of knowledge as learning from a veteran sparkie. That said, many would now wonder why you should need a depth of knowledge anyway!

Upgrading my qualifications has made me a better electrician but it won't guarantee me a job or a good wage. As many of your views have confirmed- "It's a sign of the times, and of the future".
You've helped me realise that I'm not alone in my dissatisfaction with my de-valued disposition. Perhaps I've simply been doing the job for too long!
Thanks again for your comments and your therapy.
 

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