EICR and unnecessary work?

[plugsandsparks]

But that was the point I was trying to make, you won't get anything to earth on a class II item, the RCD will have no effect whatsoever in the scenario's outlined.

A lot of sparks misunderstand what an RCD can and can't do.

An RCD will only trip on an earth fault/imbalance, they do not provide OCP, that is what I was getting at, they are not a 'magic bullet' that some sparks think they are.

Agreed - Tell you what - I believe they do give benefit, albeit, indirectly - so.
This weekend i will rig up an experiment. I will get a 4G extension and plug in 4 DI chargers or PSUs - whatever i can get my hands on. Then i will plug the lot into my garage which has a 30mA RCD and 20A MCB. I will then attack it with a blow lamp until something gives. If the RCD does not trip first i will donate £50 to the Fire Fighters Charity.
Think its a fair test ?

 

[Strima]

Agreed - Tell you what - I believe they do give benefit, albeit, indirectly - so.
This weekend i will rig up an experiment. I will get a 4G extension and plug in 4 DI chargers or PSUs - whatever i can get my hands on. Then i will plug the lot into my garage which has a 30mA RCD and 20A MCB. I will then attack it with a blow lamp until something gives. If the RCD does not trip first i will donate £50 to the Fire Fighters Charity.
Think its a fair test ?

Best video it then.

 

[Guest55]

Respect to anyone who puts his money where his mouth is.
Dont tell fibs on the outcome of your experiment though lol.

 

[somersetsparks]

Realise that but actually, the EICR does put a high degree of faith in the inspector.
Best practice states that it is up to the inspector to determine the approrpiate category. I know BS have tried to make it more steerable with the latest categories but honestly who else is out there trying to make electricity safe.
Happy to be pulled over the coals over it.

You are right, a large degree of faith is put on the inspector, I would always code a circuit supplying downstairs sockets with no rcd as a c2 now, recommend fitment of rcd or rcd socket nearest door. However the electrical installations were pretty safe without them, therefore I usually make recoomendations and observations but I will not insist on fuseboard replacement etc.

IMO bathrooms are pretty safe with good supplementary bonding in place and RCD's are regarded by some as a 'magic bullett' more so, reading on here, by the domestic sector.

You have to remember, houses (especially flats) were commonly wired with no RCD's right up to 2008, and were considered safe, they have not turned in deathtraps overnight!

 

[Grey Master]

I don't see how an RCD will help safety at all with the above mentioned devices, as an RCD will only trip on an imbalance usually L or N to Earth, not between L to N, and most of the above items are class II (no earth), and are likely if/when they go faulty, to be a fault between L to N which an RCD will not detect.

So if that's the case why do they trip when a bulb 'blows'- no earth involvement there.

 

[plugsandsparks]

Best video it then.

Good idea, will leave the lights and radio on so when something trips i can pan around to the CU. Cannot wait, anybody got an extinguisher.LOL.
Oh and will put it on a nice piece of carpet for that added realism.

 

[spark 68]

@ P&S,

I too am not disagreeing with the merits of RCD's, I believe they are potential life savers, in fact if you read my earlier posts on this and other threads, I have never said they should not be fitted where neccessary.
However they are not the be all and end all, nor are they the 'cure all' for all 'electrical ills', although they have their uses.

Since the 17th ed though, they have been pushed on to the domestic sector, a lot of sparks now use them as a 'magic bullet', for instance when the Zs is too high, and instead of either recalculating cable sizes or rectifying either a fault or design issues, just bung an RCD on it and it will fix it mentality, I feel over-reliance and misplaced trust has been placed on these devices. As others have said from the 16th ed and before we did not rely nearly so much on these devices.

Good luck with your experiment.

 

[Guest55]

You are right, a large degree of faith is put on the inspector, I would always code a circuit supplying downstairs sockets with no rcd as a c2 now, recommend fitment of rcd or rcd socket nearest door. However the electrical installations were pretty safe without them, therefore I usually make recoomendations and observations but I will not insist on fuseboard replacement etc.

IMO bathrooms are pretty safe with good supplementary bonding in place and RCD's are regarded by some as a 'magic bullett' more so, reading on here, by the domestic sector.

You have to remember, houses (especially flats) were commonly wired with no RCD's right up to 2008, and were considered safe, they have not turned in deathtraps overnight!

I understand your stance in how you code installations without rcd's and its your choice as the inspector but.......
you need to consider the implications from automatically giving code 2's to rcd free installations.
many , many properties that are otherwise safe will recieve unsatifactory EICR's and will place a large financial burden on those on the recieving end.
just a thought.

 

[somersetsparks]

@ P&S,

I too am not disagreeing with the merits of RCD's, I believe they are potential life savers, in fact if you read my earlier posts on this and other threads, I have never said they should not be fitted where neccessary.
However they are not the be all and end all, nor are they the 'cure all' for all 'electrical ills', although they have their uses.

Since the 17th ed though, they have been pushed on to the domestic sector, a lot of sparks now use them as a 'magic bullet', for instance when the Zs is too high, and instead of either recalculating cable sizes or rectifying either a fault or design issues, just bung an RCD on it and it will fix it mentality, I feel over-reliance and misplaced trust has been placed on these devices. As others have said from the 16th ed and before we did not rely nearly so much on these devices.

Good luck with your experiment.

Wonder how many sparks would L-N loop impedance when wedging a 30ma rcd on an overly long/poor condition circuit, chances are with 1.0/1.0 T+E It may not even trip within the disconnection times on a short circuit!

BIFF- I'm advocating not automatically giving C2's to RCD free installs! I only apply what is in the regs, and even then I only usually reccommend an rcd socket to be fitted by the back door!

 

[plugsandsparks]

Respect to anyone who puts his money where his mouth is.
Dont tell fibs on the outcome of your experiment though lol.

No sweat, I have been banging on about RCDs. Happy to give to fireservice anyway, after all they have to deal with dodgy electrics first

 

[spark 68]

P&S,
If you do decide to carry out your experiment, FFS please wear suitable PPE, a full visor and gloves as a minimum, we don't want you to lose an eye, or get scadded off of exploding molten plastic.

 

[Guest55]

Wonder how many sparks would L-N loop impedance when wedging a 30ma rcd on an overly long/poor condition circuit, chances are with 1.0/1.0 T+E It may not even trip within the disconnection times on a short circuit!

BIFF- I'm advocating not automatically giving C2's to RCD free installs! I only apply what is in the regs, and even then I only usually reccommend an rcd socket to be fitted by the back door!

You implied that you were with the comment
"I would always code a circuit supplying downstairs sockets with no rcd as C2 now"
????
Sorry but that goes against current guidance.
An actual exterior socket without rcd is a code 2 but any other indoor socket without rcd is a code 3.

 

[plugsandsparks]

P&S,
If you do decide to carry out your experiment, FFS please wear suitable PPE, a full visor and gloves as a minimum, we don't want you to lose an eye, or get scadded off of exploding molten plastic.

Good idea ! Wont need to actually hold the blow lamp, but will be holding the camera.
If i dont get called out, will try it Saturday morning.

 

[plugsandsparks]

 

[Guest55]

I hope photo 3 doesnt show emergency services and the charred remains of a spark lol.

 

[somersetsparks]

You implied that you were with the comment
"I would always code a circuit supplying downstairs sockets with no rcd as C2 now"
????
Sorry but that goes against current guidance.
An actual exterior socket without rcd is a code 2 but any other indoor socket without rcd is a code 3.

Well, the guidance book I got says C2 for sockets likely to supply mobile equipment outdoors, c3 for others. If it was a flat without garden or upstairs flat I would c3 for all sockets, if it was a flat with garden would give C2 and reccomend fitting rcd/rcd socket. My company gives the guidance on the coding and this what they put, It was a Code 2 before the EICR but still pass. Now its a fail.

 

[Guest55]

Why complicate the issue with all the talk of upstairs / downstairs flats , garden / no garden ?
Any socket near an opening window can be potentially used for outside with an extension lead.
And if theres a choice of 2 / 3 / 4 sockets near to an exterior door youre in effect condeming the whole ring main to a code 2 defect anyway.

 

[somersetsparks]

Why complicate the issue with all the talk of upstairs / downstairs flats , garden / no garden ?
Any socket near an opening window can be potentially used for outside with an extension lead.
And if theres a choice of 2 / 3 / 4 sockets near to an exterior door youre in effect condeming the whole ring main to a code 2 defect anyway.

Because an upstairs flat with no garden is unlikely to use equipment outside?
Its up to you what you code and I certainly don't disagree with your reasoning!

 

[Guest55]

Fair enough mate , but it does worry me that your company gives you direction on how to code defects instead of letting you , the inspector , make that judgement call on a case by case basis.
If your company benefits from ensuing remedial works then a case for conflict of interests could be made against them , if you see
my point ?

 

[somersetsparks]

Fair enough mate , but it does worry me that your company gives you direction on how to code defects instead of letting you , the inspector , make that judgement call on a case by case basis.
If your company benefits from ensuing remedial works then a case for conflict of interests could be made against them , if you see
my point ?

Umm.. certainly get your point, The advice they give is guidance though and I can, and regularly do, change it. They and especially I do not care about remedial works, I don't want to be doing them! I just test and record what I find, I never put down 'reccomend new board' even for wooden backed rewireables, as I believe most houses are fixable with a few minor repairs, and its not up to me to push for remedial work, only to record what I find