Still worthwhile?

[Somecamel]

Lots of people in society are poor and don't waste money on smokes, booze and gambling.

Where do they run to, when they have to make choices between heating their homes and feeding their families?

I don't waste money on smokes and Booze. I need smokes and booze!! I can always wear a Jumper if I'm cold

 

[dchester]

Why invest when there is such regulatory and political risk? Or the risk of consumers demanding unrealistically low prices?
Like I said: prices can't go more than several percent lower - a fiver a month on an average bill.

If you want to spend your life arguing over a maximum saving of a fiver a month through "not-for-profit" gas/electric, then fine. But I'd spend my time wondering about other, easier ways to make ends meet.
One less packet of smokes a month, or two less beers, or one less shot at the lottery each week.

It's not just a few percent though is it. The latest rise alone for me from the wonderful NPower was 22% on my gas! And that is just this year! You ignore all the previous years' inflation busting price hikes. Take electricity, where I was just a few years ago paying 4p per kWh and my renewal price this year was around 10.5p - That's an increase of 162% on what I was paying about 6 years ago! And I cannot be alone in this.

 

[FB.]

Lots of people in society are poor and don't waste money on smokes, booze and gambling.

Where do they run to, when they have to make choices between heating their homes and feeding their families?

I grew up in a council house, on the worst estate in my town. I went to the worst schools until my teachers and a high school saw potential in me and took me on.
Many of my primary school friends are either dead, in prison, or junkies - mostly associated with crime.

When I was very young my mother was involved in an accident which left her disabled and unable to work. She underwent several operations and considerable time in hospital to try to improve her quality of life.
Only my father was able to work - and he had to care for us on his own at times (when my mother was too ill). He had left school during the Depression, as barely a teenager. His education was minimal. He mostly worked as a lorry driver (sand/gravel) or heavy machinery operator in the associated quarries and landfills.

Not much stoped his fighting spirit, determination and resourcefulness from giving us a decent quality of life - even when there were soaring prices and three-day-weeks in the 1970's.

So believe me: I'm not one of those who has always had it easy. I am well aware of how the real world works and how both sides live.

Too many people today expect something for nothing. It's a side effect of the benefits culture. A lot of the girls I went to school with had one aim in life: to get pregnant as soon as possible (age 15-16) in order to be given a council house and lots of benefits; never needing to do a day's work in their life. Then they carried on breeding like rats at the expense of tax-payers or tax-paying businesses - while those who do an honest hard day's work have to think about the consequences of having additional children.

 

[dchester]

Yes, because there has been too much emphasis on consumers and not enough on encouraging businesses to invest and create jobs.

There is very little emphasis on consumers. It's all about shareholders. I already said that. These companies don't want to invest in new cheaper energy sources. They want to milk their cash cow for all they can.

The economy will not get out of its slump unless businesses can be encouraged to invest, and they will not invest unless the profit margins are satisfactory.

The profit margin does not need to be high when sales volumes are so enormous. Many computer distributors work on margins of 1% or so for some items.

How many construction workers would be given jobs, if the utility companies suddenly were able to find profitable investment options for new power stations? How much extra would that inject into the ailing UK construction industry - and filter down as wages to ordinary people? Or should we continue to lack investment and buy all our power from the Continent, with money flowing overseas instead of the UK?

It does that anyway because foreign companies have been allowed to buy our utility companies.

I presume, then, that you'd like everything to be owned by the state - including your business. After all: almost everything is "essential" and therefore why should one industry or sector be any different to other industries or sectors (especially if margins are already very low)?

I don't know why you presume that. You seem to think I'm some kind of socialist, whereas I'm actually at the other end of the scale! Without competition prices would be artificially high but there is no real competition between these companies currently. And there we go again about low margins. 7% is not a low margin, especially with such a huge turnover. It's a very healthy margin.

As things stand, you can see where investors and businesses will put their money - smokes, booze and anything with a government subsidy. Not many will be interested in low-margin utilities and investment in utility infrastructure may be starved as a result.

If it were a normal business they would invest in new ways to produce cheap energy which they could then sell for a lower price, undercutting the competition and thus increasing their customer base, turnover and profit. This does not happen because they don't have to do it. Instead they can carry on fixing the prices at higher and higher levels knowing that we HAVE to pay it.

There is far too LITTLE regulation of this industry and in fact what regulation there is seems always to be in their favour and not the hard pressed consumers. These people are always crying about government subsidies. Why should they have any at all? They BOUGHT the water company or whatever utility it is and in doing so they should take on board what needs to be done. Fix the leaks. Improve distribution and create a better, cheaper source for their product. Then the customers will come. Then the profits will flow in. Then the shareholders AND the consumers will be happy.

Of course this will never happen without someone weilding a Big Stick because of one thing: Greed.

 

[sedgy34]

@ dchester I'm just catching up on this thread just read your last post 32and then read your first post you have the answer.
also FB is a consumer not a installer and contributes a lot to the forum if every consumer were like FB the country would all have Pv and the leeches you mention would have no other alternativve than to drop there energy prices

 

[dchester]

I grew up in a council house, on the worst estate in my town. I went to the worst schools until my teachers and a high school saw potential in me and took me on.
Many of my primary school friends are either dead, in prison, or junkies - mostly associated with crime.

When I was very young my mother was involved in an accident which left her disabled and unable to work. She underwent several operations and considerable time in hospital to try to improve her quality of life.
Only my father was able to work - and he had to care for us on his own at times (when my mother was too ill). He had left school during the Depression, as barely a teenager. His education was minimal. He mostly worked as a lorry driver (sand/gravel) or heavy machinery operator in the associated quarries and landfills.

Not much stoped his fighting spirit, determination and resourcefulness from giving us a decent quality of life - even when there were soaring prices and three-day-weeks in the 1970's.

So believe me: I'm not one of those who has always had it easy. I am well aware of how the real world works and how both sides live.

Too many people today expect something for nothing. It's a side effect of the benefits culture. A lot of the girls I went to school with had one aim in life: to get pregnant as soon as possible (age 15-16) in order to be given a council house and lots of benefits; never needing to do a day's work in their life. Then they carried on breeding like rats at the expense of tax-payers or tax-paying businesses - while those who do an honest hard day's work have to think about the consequences of having additional children.

OK so we seem to share the same basic ideals, however you appear to have completely lost touch with your roots because now you just don't seem to "get it". You talk only of your investment portfolio and forget about the real people out there who are struggling. I don't mean the spongers and theives. I mean normal middle class people who can't get a loan from the bank to expand or diversify their business. Can't make enough sales to pay the bills because their clients just don't have or are not prepared to risk spending their hard-earned cash on whatever it is that the chap is trying to sell them.

 

[dchester]

@ dchester I'm just catching up on this thread just read your last post 32and then read your first post you have the answer.
also FB is a consumer not a installer and contributes a lot to the forum if every consumer were like FB the country would all have Pv and the leeches you mention would have no other alternativve than to drop there energy prices

Death to the leeches!

D.

 

[sedgy34]

Death to the leeches!

D.

Im sure someone on here can price you a 4 kw Pv system get on board like us installers who have Pv on our own roofs
post your area

 

[Gavin A]

is it still worthwhile?

Where just rejigging our figures for November, and coming out with up to 16% annual return on investment even using the IRR method, which takes off the cost of the system before working out the return - for our cheapets 3.9kW system for a high daytime energy user (50% consumption on site).

Most reasonably priced 3-4kW systems will be more like 9-15% returns depending on price, orientation, system size, daytime energy consumption etc.

If you've got money in the bank earning sod all interest, and you're paying tax on what little interest you do get then you'll be hard pushed to find better long term returns than that IMO (it's tax income tax free, which makes a huge difference for higher rate tax payers).

 

[sedgy34]

We had a customer cash there ISA in and it paid for the Pv install they are well happy

 

[Eco Deal]

Our last customer did the same her own words ''why leave my money in the bank doing sod all''

 

[sedgy34]

Just think If the people in the country followed suit

 

[Vegelen]

Solar inverter replacement / repair should also be factored into any potential customers calculations.

SMA repair inverters in the UK for something like £300-£400.

Many other cheaper inverters may have to be replaced.

Customers should look to buy reliable, quality inverters with compatible solar pv hardware in a

system, designed and installed by professionals.

The recession has brought a lot of "doom and gloom", but its created opportunities for

those willing to look.

Right now lots of professional solar engineers stand idle.

Wholesalers are dumping quality inverters on the market at sub wholesale prices.

Solar pv panels are getting very cheap.

Smart people, can now install quality solar pv systems at very competitive prices with

minimal capital outlay compared to 2011.

 

[finchy]

Well said guys !! I'm getting squeezed on a really well spec'ed system margins are tight as it is. I guess customers see the price drops and think its within our control.

 

[sedgy34]

Well said guys !! I'm getting squeezed on a really well spec'ed system margins are tight as it is. I guess customers see the price drops and think its within our control.

not surprised there they always think they can pull the strings and play you off each other

 

[FB.]

We had a customer cash there ISA in and it paid for the Pv install they are well happy

I would do the same without hesitation.

 

[sedgy34]

I would do the same without hesitation.

maybe you could do a thread fb on the investers forum stating this i know your a fan

 

[FB.]

maybe you could do a thread fb on the investers forum stating this i know your a fan

I have suggested it a few times on investment forums.

I'm not an active member on investment forums at the moment.
I find myself very unpopular and on the receiving end of a lot of unpleasant comments at major market turn points (I believe one such turn is upon us; the next leg down for stockmarkets and the economy).
Everyone's patting themselves on the back for achieving good returns "so-and-so is up 30% in the last few months" and they're counting-up how filthy rich they're going to get over the next several months as "it's going to go up another 30%!" - and then a party-pooper like me says "er.....calm down lads: now you've all piled-in, who is left to buy? Nothing goes up forever".
I find myself unpopular because I'm "being fearful when others are greedy and being greedy when others are fearful" to borrow a phrase from one of the World's greatest investors (Warren Buffett).

 

[balbecdaze]

With great respect to FB, and Vegelen, and Sedgy 34, and others, who, having read your comments I know i'd get on with in real life but - for me, "is it worthwhile?" isn't about money, its about the terrible things we're doing to the planet and the ways we can help to make sure there's still a planet humans can live on.

I know, I've completely missed the point of this thread.

It's not just still "worthwhile", it's a moral imperative!

 

[Green]

With great respect to FB, and Vegelen, and Sedgy 34, and others, who, having read your comments I know i'd get on with in real life but - for me, "is it worthwhile?" isn't about money, its about the terrible things we're doing to the planet and the ways we can help to make sure there's still a planet humans can live on.

I know, I've completely missed the point of this thread.

It's not just still "worthwhile", it's a moral imperative!

This ^

 

[FB.]

its about the terrible things we're doing to the planet and the ways we can help to make sure there's still a planet humans can live on.....
it's a moral imperative!

I agree.
But try telling that to the "superpowers" of the world. Even if everyone in the UK was as "green" as possible, it would not have much effect.

In fairness, I (we) try hard not to waste anything (not that I'm a hoarder). But, truly, on the rare occasion when we throw food away because it's "gone off" I spare a thought for people in other nations who would have walked miles for such food.

I grow a lot of my own - and have spent a lot of time perfecting the art of getting good yields of fruit and veg without chemicals. All of my "fertiliser" is actually compost and manure from a local household waste/recycling centre. Plus composting kitchen waste, lawn mowings and tree prunings - and even using urine as a quick fertiliser booster (shock, horror, disgust!).
Non-soapy rinsings from bowls, remains from the bottom of tea/coffee cups and all kinds of liqud waste go into a waste bucket (rather than down the sink) and used on the garden - give moisture and additional nutrients to the garden and veg plot. I also have 1000 litres of rainwater capacity in five water-butts attached to my garage.

I think you'll find that I'm well up there with the best "green" habits. Greener than many self-proclaimed "Greens", I'd bet.
But not that I'm a "tree hugger" by an means. No chance.

My approach is more one of: "Can I make an eco-conscious change to my way of life, with a minimal inconvenience once I've got used to it?"
It's surprising what can be done - if you really want to.

 

[Vegelen]

"is it worthwhile?" isn't about money, its about the terrible things we're doing to the planet and the ways we can help to make sure there's still a planet humans can live on.

Is it?

I'm sat here wondering how Solar Pv, will prevent the Amazonian rainforests from being

chopped down, the seas from being over fished, poachers shooting beautiful animals for

furs, tusks and Chinese medicines, vast palm plantations planted unecessarily to create

palm oil, wars fought worldwide for natural resources etc.

Lots of bad things are happening on this planet, which are caused by greed and have

little to do with anything else.

Lack of education, employment opportunities, political corruption, overpopulation, lack of

food, water, disease, ignorance, greed - these are many of the "real issues".

Solar PV is one of many technologies to help reduce the amount of energy we use.

Using better heating, cooling and lighting technologies, insulation, and more energy

efficient appliances are effective ways to reduce future consumption.

Consequentially leading to lower household bills and a better quality of life.

If your house is warmer in winter and costs less to run, people are less likely to get ill and

more likely to be productive.

The Green political movement attempts to subvert a lifestyle choice into a political

movement / argument to control the behaviour of others, just like any other political or

relgious entity.

Forcing people to change the way they live via subverted political movements,

isnt the way to encourage people to strive to live better lives.

 

[Gavin A]

would you like salt and vinegar with that chip you've got on your shoulder Vegelen?

 

[Vegelen]

would you like salt and vinegar with that chip you've got on your shoulder Vegelen?

I prefer Cheese and Onion, Salt and Vinegar is too acidic and salty.

 

[balbecdaze]

Impressed with your cultivation FB, I wee in the compost bin too!

 

[FB.]

Impressed with your cultivation FB, I wee in the compost bin too!

Manure, compost and urine are much better than synthetic fertilisers anyway because they add a variety of extra's to the soil, such as: slower-release and less easily washed from the soil, essential trace elements not present in NPK, moisture and nutrient-holding capacity from the humus, improvement soil structure and encourage a whole eco-system of useful bugs, grubs, fungi and bacteria - just the way mother nature had always intended it to be.

I once worked for a disease lab and a long time ago and (going from distant memory) there was an outbreak of Hepatitis A in the community. The source was traced to a market stall, selling raspberries which had been fertilised with human urine, which has splashed onto the fruits. The owner of the stall tested positive for hepatitis A. Had it not been splashed onto the fruits there would have been no risk as it would not have been carried up in the sap from the roots of the plants; Hep-A doesn't infect plants.

 

[sambotc]

Manure, compost and urine are much better than synthetic fertilisers anyway because they add a variety of extra's to the soil, such as: slower-release and less easily washed from the soil, essential trace elements not present in NPK, moisture and nutrient-holding capacity from the humus, improvement soil structure and encourage a whole eco-system of useful bugs, grubs, fungi and bacteria - just the way mother nature had always intended it to be.

I once worked for a disease lab and a long time ago and (going from distant memory) there was an outbreak of Hepatitis A in the community. The source was traced to a market stall, selling raspberries which had been fertilised with human urine, which has splashed onto the fruits. The owner of the stall tested positive for hepatitis A. Had it not been splashed onto the fruits there would have been no risk as it would not have been carried up in the sap from the roots of the plants; Hep-A doesn't infect plants.

With stories like that, it's no wonder people prefer to shop at tescos...

 

[balbecdaze]

I'd like to respond to Vegelen's comments, because its the sort of thing I think too - what's the point of making my little corner of the globe less damaging when the big picture is far far bigger than the 15 trees (woo!) and counting that PVOutput tells me I've been equivalent to in the last 6 weeks. The thing I think is we're all headed to hell in a handcart and I can't stop that. However if I were to imagine a future in which we weren't all doomed it would include not burning fossil fuels to make light and stuff - how mad is that? I know, I'll just dig up my planet so I can boil this kettle! So although me greening up isn't going to change anything, the only thing that will change things is if we all green up and in order for that to happen I need to green up too.

I am a naive fool mind. And I suspect Vegelen's being a bit Devils Advocate. And I don't like being told what to do either.

Sorry for hijacking the thread! (PV is still financially worthwhile!)

 

[Gavin A]

The way I tend to view it is that individually we can choose to be part of the problem or part of the solution.

Choose to be part of the solution, and others will see what you're doing and follow suit without any need to preach, both on an individual and a national level.

On a national level Germany is blazing the trail and proving the naysayers wrong - it used to be thought that anything above 20% renewables penetration on the grid was impossible, but Germany is now proving this wrong, and other countries are then able to follow suit because they can now prove it can be done. I'm sure there were a lot of people in Germany saying 'why should we do this while China's building huge numbers of coal plants' but by taking the lead the Germans have now helped get China to the situation where they're now implementing a massive internal renewables programme, and globally we're hopefully now starting to turn the corner.

There are 7 billion people on the planet, so on an individual level any one person can only hope to possibly influence a minute proportion of those people, so in general individually I'd say stop worrying about what others are doing until you've sorted your own act out.

Once you've sorted your own act out you won't need to preach anyway because enough people will be approaching you for advice, to ask your experience etc.

I used to be a bit guilty of preaching without practicing it, and that was never going to work for persuading people individually. At the same time though it was necessary to help get us to the point where we actually have permission to connect renewables to the grid, where planning permission isn't required, and where the financial incentives can be in place to kick start the entire thing properly.

I also think it's worth not worrying about perfection until you've actually achieved pretty good - just do what you can when you can in managable chunks, and you'll get to pretty good, then it won't be too hard to just keep getting a bit better one thing at a time. Also I'd recommend starting by checking where your daily consumption is going - we cut about 40% off our daily electricity consumption just by replacing an old chest freezer, 15 halogen bulbs with LED, and switching the electric shower to be fed from our solar water heating / gas boiler, and a couple of other minor things, for a total cost of around £600.

thus endeth tonights sermon.

 

[balbecdaze]

Gavin A - exactly, I love my LEDs!, lets just do what we can. The important thing is to do it!