UK This can't be right???

[Tazzy666uk]

I run a hall , and one of the long term hirers has been using it a lot lately. I popped in there today and was extremely concerned about some wiring they have done (which they never asked to do either)…. I noticed that this hall user had wired a cable into one of our fuse boards. It was replaced 2 years ago to meet fire reg but now has a hole in the top (not the one they are using!… however, I traced this wire and it goes to a festoon stage socket….. that means there is a live cable on a 32A breaker going straight to a socket with no isolation other than the board which is up high…. This is wrong and dangerous and against regs? I am concerned for other hall users and think I need to get a qualified sparky in urgently. Would appreciate some thoughts. Thank You

 

[mainline]

I run a hall , and one of the long term hirers has been using it a lot lately. I popped in there today and was extremely concerned about some wiring they have done (which they never asked to do either)…. I noticed that this hall user had wired a cable into one of our fuse boards. It was replaced 2 years ago to meet fire reg but now has a hole in the top (not the one they are using!… however, I traced this wire and it goes to a festoon stage socket….. that means there is a live cable on a 32A breaker going straight to a socket with no isolation other than the board which is up high…. This is wrong and dangerous and against regs? I am concerned for other hall users and think I need to get a qualified sparky in urgently. Would appreciate some thoughts. Thank You

Is the commando socket rated at 32 amp , The cable looks like it's at least 4mm

What's the blue cable at the top for ?

Can you do a pic of the top of the Consumer unit.

Choc blocks on the tails are not the sign of someone competent.

 

[Tazzy666uk]

Is the commando socket rated at 32 amp , The cable looks like it's at least 4mm

What's the blue cable at the top for ?

Can you do a pic of the top of the Consumer unit.

Choc blocks on the tails are not the sign of someone competent.

Thanks for replying. The Commando has 16A stamped on it.

The blue cable is theirs as well, and is an ethernet cable just passing by. My concern is that there is no isolation point and have a 32A breaker on the 16A socket

 

[Tazzy666uk]

Thanks for replying. The Commando has 16A stamped on it.

The blue cable is theirs as well, and is an ethernet cable just passing by. My concern is that there is no isolation point and have a 32A breaker on the 16A socket

just to add, there is shed loads of stage lighting and equipment fed of this from multiple extension leads!

 

[oscar21]

Again its my oppinion and I'm not stating an absolute fact but I don't think an isolation switch is needed for it to be compliant with the regs, I've always understood that there isn't a requirement for a cooker switch inbetween the MCB and the cooker so I doubt its needed for the socket. It certainly wouldn't be if it was fixed wiring, loads of commando sockets are fed directly from the mains.

 

[Tazzy666uk]

Again its my oppinion and I'm not stating an absolute fact but I don't think an isolation switch is needed for it to be compliant with the regs, I've always understood that there isn't a requirement for a cooker switch inbetween the MCB and the cooker so I doubt its needed for the socket. It certainly wouldn't be if it was fixed wiring, loads of commando sockets are fed directly from the mains.

Thanks Oscar. I am not an electrician, hence asking here, however and arguably, this cable is just floating around, and the only securing point is the gland at the box.... it is not fixed wiring. This hall is also open to members of the public, it is not a private/domestic building

 

[mainline]

Apart from the 32 being on a 16 commando, I can't see anything wrong

 

[James]

As noted above 32A breaker is not suitable for a 16A socket.
Is the board supposed to be mounted at 45 degrees?

I would prefer to see a socket mounted to the wall, if someone trips over that trailing lead then they could pull the board off the wall.

Edit: If the hall is being rented out commercially then you should have up to date test records for the electrical installation.

If you don't, then maybe now is a good time to get it organised?

 

[Tazzy666uk]

As noted above 32A breaker is not suitable for a 16A socket.
Is the board supposed to be mounted at 45 degrees?

I would prefer to see a socket mounted to the wall, if someone trips over that trailing lead then they could pull the board off the wall.

Edit: If the hall is being rented out commercially then you should have up to date test records for the electrical installation.

If you don't, then maybe now is a good time to get it organised?

Hi James, i agree re the socket.

the board is level, but a dodgy photo taken against a 45 degree sloped suspended ceiling.

It is tested every 5 years, and was replaced 2 years ago because the old board was plastic. This wiring was done recently by a hirer and without our knowledge - obviously we will take this up with them.

 

[littlespark]

Never mind how good or bad the work has been.

Someone has basically tampered with the installation without permission.

An EICR is required now to check it’s safe, at this idiots expense. If they want stage lighting, then they have a socket installed properly by a qualified electrician…. With the certificate to prove it’s done right.
You need this for you PL insurance, I’m sure.


I wouldn’t be too enamoured with the board anyway. As mentioned, connector block on the incoming tails is badger rough.

Oh, and put the cover back on.

 

[Tazzy666uk]

Never mind how good or bad the work has been.

Someone has basically tampered with the installation without permission.

An EICR is required now to check it’s safe, at this idiots expense. If they want stage lighting, then they have a socket installed properly by a qualified electrician…. With the certificate to prove it’s done right.
You need this for you PL insurance, I’m sure.


I wouldn’t be too enamoured with the board anyway. As mentioned, connector block on the incoming tails is badger rough.

Oh, and put the cover back on.

Thanks Littlespark, appreciate the comments and agree 100%. In all my years, I have never seen anything like this done at our halls. We will be getting someone in to check it all. I now have to go and do some finger wagging. Cover was only off for 1 minute to get photo and main isolator to building switched off....

 

[timhoward]

What's the blue cable at the top for ?

I wondered that too. I was initially concerned there was 3 phase involved somewhere and only a 3 core cable had been fitted, etc. etc.
I agree, it's been messed with, it needs professionally checking and that muppet can pay for it.
Oh, and don't engage anyone to check it that quotes for less than at least a mornings work (at a minimum)

 

[mainline]

I wouldn't be using the same installer of the board to do the eicr either.

I am maybe wrong, but it looks like the supply tails run through the fabric of the building.
Also, I would be looking at the 32 which I assume is a ring final and an added 2.5 radial to ensure it's not capable of being overloaded.

 

[loz2754]

The blue cable at the top is a data cable.

 

[Markyd]

When you see him, give him a dustbin and tell him to put his tools into it

 

[ipf]

As noted above 32A breaker is not suitable for a 16A socket.
Is the board supposed to be mounted at 45 degrees?

Reckon those ceiling tiles are going up at an angle, maybe to an apex.

I wouldn't trust these amateur dramatic folk. I've come across loads of dodgy stuff thrown in by their 'expert lighting engineer' members who've been doing it for free for years.
Quite deadly. What frightens me most is the number of youngsters treading the boards in total innocence.

 

[Rockingit]

OK..... the issue of permission apart, I'm not seeing anything here which concerns me.

It's a 6mm cable feeding what looks to me to be a 32a trailing socket, not a 16a. 30 years of using them and you get a feel for these things by sight from 50m away.... It would be very unlikely that a portable lighting dimmer they'd want to use connected to it would only be on a 16A input either, 32A is far more normal. You could argue that a fixed socket outlet rather than a trailing socket would have been more appropriate but that would mean needing to fix something onto the wall which could introduce more problems.

The fact it's also been ferruled properly makes me know that whoever did it has an appreciation of doing things properly. It would only justify a minor works certificate at best, so screaming to get people to pay for an EICR is probably not helpful.

HOWEVER... what you HAVE done is highlight a bunch of other issues totally unconnected with this lighting feed, which absolutely do warrant an inspection and report!!

 

[Tazzy666uk]

OK..... the issue of permission apart, I'm not seeing anything here which concerns me.

It's a 6mm cable feeding what looks to me to be a 32a trailing socket, not a 16a. 30 years of using them and you get a feel for these things by sight from 50m away.... It would be very unlikely that a portable lighting dimmer they'd want to use connected to it would only be on a 16A input either, 32A is far more normal. You could argue that a fixed socket outlet rather than a trailing socket would have been more appropriate but that would mean needing to fix something onto the wall which could introduce more problems.

The fact it's also been ferruled properly makes me know that whoever did it has an appreciation of doing things properly. It would only justify a minor works certificate at best, so screaming to get people to pay for an EICR is probably not helpful.

HOWEVER... what you HAVE done is highlight a bunch of other issues totally unconnected with this lighting feed, which absolutely do warrant an inspection and report!!

Firstly, thank you to everyone for the comments, I appreciate it.

In respect to my original question and comments, The commando socket is definitely rated at 16A, and it is stamped as that. I didn't check the cable to be fair.

I had two concerns initially (from my own perspective):

1. safety
2. unauthorised tampering with our electrical system.

Hopefully, the first is put to bed as the hirer is only there for one more day and the circuit is isolated when they are not there, albeit if someone got up on a step ladder, they could flip the breaker back on.

The second, is something for me to take up with the hirer.

.....

So, going forward, there appears to be a need for such a thing to be used in our hall and I would like to think we can accommodate that and will speak to our sparky about installing a fixed one. This would eliminate future issues of a similar nature.

As mentioned, the board was changed about 2 years ago to bring it up to regs from fire perspective as the old one was plastic.

I would appreciate any comments as to the other concerns you have? I have no issues highlighting any other issues. I would rather it be safe and done properly than have something potentially dangerous.

This is one of 4 boards in the hall, and there is a 3 phase supply in.

If you have the time, I would appreciate the general board comments....

From my layman observations (which may be wrong!), I can spot:

1. exposed copper terminations.
2. hole in board
3. choc block on tails
4. should be a blanking breaker over the bus bar instead of a cover on front of board
5. cables trailed around the board.

To note, our 'works' sparky also does the EICR (comments noted from others).


thank you

 

[littlespark]

What the most important thing is someone has ***ked about with the electrics, whether they know what they’re doing or not.

It gets my goat when somebody thinks they’re above the normal procedures of doing things and don’t even think to ask for permission.

When we had the caravan park, my FIL bought some chainsaw carved bears to dot around the site… a little one right at the gate, holding a sign with an arrow….
There was a customer who decided upon himself to cover it in white paint! … not the sign… the bear!

 

[Rockingit]

So, going forward, there appears to be a need for such a thing to be used in our hall and I would like to think we can accommodate that and will speak to our sparky about installing a fixed one. This would eliminate future issues of a similar nature.

There's a whole variety of options at that point, and I'd suggest that a 'regular' sparky may not be fully conversant with the conventions of power for stage lighting, PA and so on. There are members here (inc myself) who specialise in this and who can advise and design if you wish, if you're in London then I'm thinking specifically of @davesparks