Discuss Advice on safety of new Consumer Unit Install in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

Thanks to all that have replied, I have checked Napit site, he is on there as Domestic Installer EAS/CPS. I will take more photos under the floorboards just above the CU in the bedroom floorspace where the JBs are, and upload the certificate he gave me.

Apart from that, and pending all of the good folks advice on here regarding the JBs, should I be at least be asking him to come back and secure the CU better by putting some battens under the overhang side?


Regards

Dave
 
Dual RCD board for 4 circuits? Why oh why?

Pictures of the junction boxes could be interesting...is this a bungalow or where the void above is usually accessible?
 
So who took the decision on it being a TNC-S supply

Just to add to your question, it may help it may not. I am one of the end terrace of a terrace of 7. We are all on a looped supply, 1 loop comes up my side wall splits to mine then feeds 2 other properties so 3 of the 7 from the incoming loop on my wall, then the remaining 4 in the terrace are looped together on a separate incoming loop on the end of the wall of the other end terrace the other side.

Its a rubber incoming cable with 2 cores. The earthing arrangement has always been like this.


I have also attached a photo of the setup before he came in and installed the new CU
IMG-1361.jpg

On another note regards the loop, have a look at these pictures and see how dangerous this looks to you

IMG-1370.jpgIMG-1367.jpgIMG-1368.jpgIMG-1369.jpg
 
My grandmother had storage heaters and no gas supply, so I think she had different peak tariffs for the storage heaters to heat-up at night. I know have gas line installed and central heating system installed
 
Is that overhead supply? Looks like it was TT and the installer converted it to TN-C-S perhaps without DNO approval. Another point to raise with the DNO, not so much to catch out the guy but to ensure regularisation of conversion as some areas cannot/will not convert. I see the seals have been removed so looks like a bit of a chancer on the job. Exposed copper at the terminals and can't wait to see the JBs' if the terminations in the JB echo the CU well I think it would profit from an inspection and perhaps remedy. I wonder what the test results were??? In any event looking at the supply wire, if indeed they are in use, the "electrician" should not even have started work without getting the DNO in first so that is a bit worrying.
 
Just to add to your question, it may help it may not. I am one of the end terrace of a terrace of 7. We are all on a looped supply, 1 loop comes up my side wall splits to mine then feeds 2 other properties so 3 of the 7 from the incoming loop on my wall, then the remaining 4 in the terrace are looped together on a separate incoming loop on the end of the wall of the other end terrace the other side.

Its a rubber incoming cable with 2 cores. The earthing arrangement has always been like this.


I have also attached a photo of the setup before he came in and installed the new CU
View attachment 98921
The earthing arrangement in this picture is clearly different to the picture posted after the works to replace the CU as there is no earth cable connected in the neutral of the service head, that now begs the question how was the installation earthed previously and that was probably via an earth rod
Looking at some of the other pictures (no insulation on external supply conductors) it clearly indicates that no contact has been made with the DNO by the contractor so it looks like the contractor has taken the creative decision to make the supply TNC-S when this may not be available on the existing supply
I think the contractor needs to answer some questions on this one and it also needs the DNO to be involved before someone is seriously injured
I would also be contacting NAPIT and Check a Trade as it is time these schemes stepped upto the plate and took action against the rogues they approve
 
The earthing arrangement in this picture is clearly different to the picture posted after the works to replace the CU as there is no earth cable connected in the neutral of the service head, that now begs the question how was the installation earthed previously and that was probably via an earth rod
No sign of a VOELCB though which I would expect to see on a TT design of that era, but equally no sign of a supply earth.

Is it possible it relied on the water pipe for a low impedance earth before? Maybe someone remembered when that became a no-no in the reg? I have seen something similar on a property with a likely original installation in the 1940s.
 
This has been a most interesting thread to read.
Maybe someone remembered when that [water pipe as legitimate earth] became a no-no in the reg?
I asked this a while ago on here, and I was told somewhere between 1940 and 1950.

The original concerns in this thread are relatively minor compared the to state of the incoming supply and the very naughty TN conversion (presumably without permission). Main thing is to call the DNO and it should be a high priority job.
 
Update.

Sorry I did not say in my post, but I noticed the incoming supply at the same time as the electrics were done, the electrician who changed the CU was aware of the incoming cables and the state they were in.

I did ring the DNO, Northern Powergrid, I explained on the phone about the cables being bare, they asked me to email pictures (the exact ones I posted on here) within 45 minutes someone came out to look at them, within 2 hours of that, they (DNO) were digging up the garden and replacing it, So it has been replaced.

The old box on the outside wall has gone and there is a new cable coming up the existing pipe and connected into the existing cable which is clipped in the photo horizontally. Have photos if interested!

The property was built 1946, my grandmother had some electric work done in early 1980s (don't know what though) but nothing since then.

When I had the central heating system installed back in March, the electrician who wired the boiler fused spur did mention something along the lines of there is no earth! and mentioned something about a ''PME'' (I could have that wrong), but he said i need the dno to provide an earth.

What he did do is he said he will run a bond which he said is not ideal but better than nothing. After he finished I looked and he ran a 10mm earth bond from the water pipe inlet up the wall capped, through the ceiling, under floor upstairs and down in to old consumer unit, The water never had an earth bond, the property never had gas until March this year.


If you look in the photos of what the electrics were like before the CU install, you can see the temporary earth coming through the ceiling originating from the water pipe.

So from all that I take it the property has never had a connection to earth and possible still doesn't if he has done it incorrectly, do I need to check with the DNO to see if its capable of being run the way he has it?

The guy who installed the CU did bond the gas by piggy backing the bond clamp on the water pipe near by.
 
Update.

Sorry I did not say in my post, but I noticed the incoming supply at the same time as the electrics were done, the electrician who changed the CU was aware of the incoming cables and the state they were in.

I did ring the DNO, Northern Powergrid, I explained on the phone about the cables being bare, they asked me to email pictures (the exact ones I posted on here) within 45 minutes someone came out to look at them, within 2 hours of that, they (DNO) were digging up the garden and replacing it, So it has been replaced.

The old box on the outside wall has gone and there is a new cable coming up the existing pipe and connected into the existing cable which is clipped in the photo horizontally. Have photos if interested!

The property was built 1946, my grandmother had some electric work done in early 1980s (don't know what though) but nothing since then.

When I had the central heating system installed back in March, the electrician who wired the boiler fused spur did mention something along the lines of there is no earth! and mentioned something about a ''PME'' (I could have that wrong), but he said i need the dno to provide an earth.

What he did do is he said he will run a bond which he said is not ideal but better than nothing. After he finished I looked and he ran a 10mm earth bond from the water pipe inlet up the wall capped, through the ceiling, under floor upstairs and down in to old consumer unit, The water never had an earth bond, the property never had gas until March this year.


If you look in the photos of what the electrics were like before the CU install, you can see the temporary earth coming through the ceiling originating from the water pipe.

So from all that I take it the property has never had a connection to earth and possible still doesn't if he has done it incorrectly, do I need to check with the DNO to see if its capable of being run the way he has it?

The guy who installed the CU did bond the gas by piggy backing the bond clamp on the water pipe near by.

Definitely interested in some photos of the new install!

As others have said, it appears that the consumer unit is not the main issue here.

It's likely if they have put a new install in that it is PME capable (which means that an earth could be run as it has been). However, the key is that ONLY the DNO can decide and do that.

It is probably a good idea to contact them again and explain and ask for an earth safety check. They may be able to confirm that the earth is acceptable as it is, and will do it correctly with their labels and an earth terminal.

There are ways to test whether PME is possible/effective, and the electrician may have done that, but it's still not within his remit to decide to change it.

That doesn't make what is in place now unsafe necessarily - though the readings on the certificate will be helpful in deciding that.

It appears that you've been let down by two electricians here.

The first one who did the boiler should have either contacted the DNO themselves or got you to do it, and had them in to see if they could upgrade the earth - at that point I expect they would have noticed the outside cabling and arranged for it to be changed.

The water bonding was necessary as well, so not a waste that he did it, just that it was not an acceptable alternative to a proper main earth. Do you know the if gas has been bonded now too?

The second electrician should not have done anything with the outside cable in that state - they should have called the DNO themselves as an emergency job and waited for it to be fixed before proceeding. They should absolutely not (if they did) have connected the earth up as they did, even if tests suggested that the install was PME.

Now that the new supply is installed, the good news is that it is probably not a huge amount of work to get things into an entirely satisfactory state. It seems like what you need is a competent electrician to oversee ensuring everything is as it should be - and maybe the one who does the EICR could be that.

I would find a few from the NAPIT or NICEIC site that are rated to do EICRs, and contact them for a discussion/quote, but explain the situation. You sound like you have a good enough grasp of the issues now to be able to spot those who do not give good clear answers as to how they would proceed.

Sadly as you've found, ensuring they have membership is not the guarantee it should be.

Not sure if any of the forum members are close to Bradford and willing to assist, or can recommend someone who is reliable and competent.

It may also be worth contacting NAPIT, I am told they have a rather better approach to maintaining their standards than some, so they may be able to assist. Usually, they ask that you go through a complaints procedure with the electrician first, but in this case, if you show them the pictures (or direct them to this post), they may be willing to take a more proactive approach. If I was a NAPIT member, I might even raise it myself with them as a poor example of the "brand" that I was paying for the privilege of representing.

In terms of price for an EICR, it's not always a good guide - You should be able to get a perfectly good EICR for less than £200. I would avoid national firms who specialise in EICRs as they have a habit of fitting in as many in a day as they could and barely scraping the surface.
 
No sign of a VOELCB though which I would expect to see on a TT design of that era, but equally no sign of a supply earth.

Is it possible it relied on the water pipe for a low impedance earth before? Maybe someone remembered when that became a no-no in the reg? I have seen something similar on a property with a likely original installation in the 1940s.
Hello pc1966.

A metal water pipe was commonly used as the earth with no VOELCB in domestic urban and rural installations until the 14th Edition, 1966. I would guess this was originally one such installation. I would think it should be TT now, but would check with the DNO first.

Regards,

Colin Jenkins.
 
No Surge or Arc offered

Update to some photos here and the paper work he gave me which says it’s an EICR report strangely. So has he done an EICR as well as the CU install

Also a picture of how he left the gas bonding which was behind the kitchen unit, after I pulled the old kitchen out this is what was left

I did find an old bond on the water so the pipe was previously bonded unlike what I thought when I said it was not

Also the photo of the incoming supply after dno changed it in 2 hrs from call which was fast repair, but then again it was really bad and dangerous
B4978D1D-8E79-4883-A910-25D31D81AE0F.jpegD62C7248-798F-4AE7-A837-42559DE0E6FA.jpeg378A7D37-5566-4491-BF2F-829ADBF19A0D.jpeg55BAD1DD-5F34-427A-B650-F5381FABCDB7.jpegCD73B142-A864-4936-BD65-344CE10A37ED.jpegDF2B158B-B3AC-47A6-B872-A5F49F7A273C.jpeg9FBED43F-93B8-44FB-9FA5-41FF195397C2.jpeg245621BD-DAB7-4A39-9373-9EBC96EF5AAC.jpegEDE7E88D-4982-48C3-9FAF-8276D9C7EA8E.jpeg5A11F6E3-4F82-4710-BB43-54A6746AC02D.jpeg6652FC13-C938-4DA5-A4B5-9ED569F71134.jpeg
 

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