Advice on safety of new Consumer Unit Install

[minorcamount]

Could I ask also what your meaning of disgraceful is?

Do you mean the way it’s printed and completed or the values of the test results?

 

[westward10]

It looks like his work a mess. He is a con man and shouldn't be undertaking electrical works.

 

[Dartlec]

So I should be contacting him and asking for those 2 certificates?

Every new bit of info is a real twist in this saga!

What you have there in theory is a satisfactory EICR, which is what you legally need to rent - and which would normally be charged extra.

It's severely lacking in places, and is printed on the most basic of certificates, but I've seen worse on more professional looking certificates too!

There are noticeable errors or ommisions: Bonding to gas and water doesn't seem to be mentioned at all on it, and some of the values on the test sheet are questionable (1000V IR tests?!).

He also seems to be suggesting there is a socket circuit, on a 16A MCB, with 1mm twin and earth, which would be concerning if true, but appears to be a certificate error (order of circuits is wrong too)

More importantly, what he should have given you for the consumer unit change is an Electrical installation Certificate - which would look quite similar, but is specifically for new work, and most importantly a Part P notification certificate, to prove that the work has been notified to the Local Building Control, as is required by law.

You can check yourself for NICEIC or ELECSA members - at NICEIC Online Certification - http://www.checkmynotification.com/, but it doesn't appear to cover NAPIT work.

Not only is the notification a legal requirement, it is also important because it is required when selling a house these days, and not having it can cause complications with the legal process or additional costs.

In general, only the person who did the work can make that notification, so I would certainly chase up the electrician to get the EIC and Part P certificates - If he doesn't come forward with them, then definitely contact NAPIT and follow the procedure.

Whether you want to let him loose to try and correct his issues is up to you, but I'd be tempted to get someone else to sort the mess out properly - which would probably include a more thorough and trustworthy EICR.

 

[minorcamount]

Every new bit of info is a real twist in this saga!

What you have there in theory is a satisfactory EICR, which is what you legally need to rent - and which would normally be charged extra.

It's severely lacking in places, and is printed on the most basic of certificates, but I've seen worse on more professional looking certificates too!

There are noticeable errors or ommisions: Bonding to gas and water doesn't seem to be mentioned at all on it, and some of the values on the test sheet are questionable (1000V IR tests?!).

He also seems to be suggesting there is a socket circuit, on a 16A MCB, with 1mm twin and earth, which would be concerning if true, but appears to be a certificate error (order of circuits is wrong too)

More importantly, what he should have given you for the consumer unit change is an Electrical installation Certificate - which would look quite similar, but is specifically for new work, and most importantly a Part P notification certificate, to prove that the work has been notified to the Local Building Control, as is required by law.

You can check yourself for NICEIC or ELECSA members - at NICEIC Online Certification - http://www.checkmynotification.com/, but it doesn't appear to cover NAPIT work.

Not only is the notification a legal requirement, it is also important because it is required when selling a house these days, and not having it can cause complications with the legal process or additional costs.

In general, only the person who did the work can make that notification, so I would certainly chase up the electrician to get the EIC and Part P certificates - If he doesn't come forward with them, then definitely contact NAPIT and follow the procedure.

Whether you want to let him loose to try and correct his issues is up to you, but I'd be tempted to get someone else to sort the mess out properly - which would probably include a more thorough and trustworthy EICR.

Thank you everyone who has chipped in, and thank you dartlec,

I have send an email and text to the electrician re the Part P and EIC and why I have a EICR instead and why he has it down as 1mm T&E on the socket circuit, and the failure to mention the bonding etc etc etc, I will report back on his response if any.

As for getting it all sorted, I don't trust him coming in now and will need to get another spark in. Only issue is, I inherited the house and its stuck in the 80's so am doing as much work on it myself whilst been partially disabled, kitchen rip out, decorating, even going to try my hand at patch plastering (oh dear please cross your fingers for me on that one)

So not a lot of money to go around and will have to wait till I save a little bit more up.

I obviously thought I would leave the dangerous stuff to the correctly qualified people ie Electrical, and central heating install (I managed to get a grant for the central heating install and the NEW connection to the gas network)

I even thought I was doing it right this time instead of putting an on FB or elsewhere for a sparky I thought I would do it properly and go through Check-a-trade thinking surely nothing can go wrong they're on check-a-trade and thats how I contacted them through that.


Whilst typing this, Sorry for long winded replys, the sparky has replied and I quote verbatim ""Yes ur right, send me a snapshot of the certificate I sent you its obvo wrong and do you need a EICR doing?"""" is this the point I insert (..sic)

 

[swaRRR]

He's put the install as TN-S. TN-S would mean the earth is done through the sheathing of the supply cable. What he's attempted to do with the earth would make it a TNC-S.

That work is absolute cack and you're going to have to pay someone else to put it right. I wouldn't have the same guy back to try and remedy it.

 

[minorcamount]

He's put the install as TN-S. TN-S would mean the earth is done through the sheathing of the supply cable. What he's attempted to do with the earth would make it a TNC-S.

That work is absolute cack and you're going to have to pay someone else to put it right. I wouldn't have the same guy back to try and remedy it.

Thant's what I am dreading.

I thought I was doing it right going through check-a-trade so I didnt have these issues. Now it might cost more to put it right when I thought I was making it safe originally by getting the old system changed by what I thought was a reputable/accredited electrician.

I might contact check-a-trade with all the evidence from the photos and from what the great folks on this forum have told me as I think they have a scheme to put things right if it goes wrong, but I think they require me to allow the original to attempt to put it right first.
I will feel awkward and embarrased (even though I shouldn't) if he comes back after I have complained, thats why I don't like to complain much. (apart from behind a keyboard ha ha ha)

Before that, I'll try get the floorboards back up this evening or tomorrow and take some pictures of the 'floating' junction boxes, I'll isolate the supply and open the JBs to see what the connection are like and photograph.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

I asked this a while ago on here, and I was told somewhere between 1940 and 1950.

I can confirm that using a water pipe as an earth electrode was definitely still allowed in 1946, and definitely not allowed in 1966.

 

[JBW175]

Hand written so there’s no electronic trail on that abomination of a certificate.

 

[DPG]

It's a shame you've been let down like this, it makes the trade look bad. DIY work is often much better than the mess you have there.

Be interesting to see those junction boxes he has done.

 

[minorcamount]

It's a shame you've been let down like this, it makes the trade look bad. DIY work is often much better than the mess you have there.

Be interesting to see those junction boxes he has done.

To be honest I couldn’t wait any longer myself so I’ve just nipped round to the house and pulled the floorboards (by hand) as he didn’t re fit them properly and to be honest I didn’t think it could get any worse

He had to extend the cables as they would not reach so everything your about to see is what he has done. They may be the original JBs but he has re used them and, Well. Here you go. Have a look

One of the JBs I couldn’t open because it’s so tort to the ceiling/floor plasterboard that there is no play to twist it enough to open the screw let alone move it. And this is how I found it so nothing secured all floating with bare circuits (al be it a dead old shower 6mm (doesn't look like 10mm, maybe 6mm so probably better i didnt have him re-connect it as it was running an 8.5kw shower). I asked him not to reconnect as we’re removing it for mixer shower off boiler)

I’m pretty upset to be honest. I know it was only £250 but I thought it would be done to at least a basic standard. I could have done that better if I was allowed, I’m not and he is and he has certificates telling people he is allowed to install that and why oh why oh why. Any way. Any Thoughts on the JBs?? (I say sarcastically), He couldn't even put any sleeving on the bare cpc's.

I did safely isolate before opening the JBs

 

[DPG]

Even worse than I expected.

 

[minorcamount]

Even worse than I expected.

I know, its gone past shocking and got to upsetting now.

So should I just go through check-a-trade complaint system, or should I give him the opportunity to put it right? Or just save up for someone else to put it right?

 

[JBW175]

I know, its gone past shocking and got to upsetting now.

So should I just go through check-a-trade complaint system, or should I give him the opportunity to put it right? Or just save up for someone else to put it right?

I’m all for giving someone the chance to put something right, but he’s knowingly done that shoddy work and then issued the wrong type of certificate, that’s been hand written so it’s harder to trace back to him.

Now, that in my eyes is very deceitful. He could have quite easily used NAPIT Online to issue the correct cert and notify LABC, but he chose not to because he didn’t want to take the chance of his scheme providers seeing what he’d done.

EDIT, I think at the very least you need to have a chat with him though and ask some questions.

 

[Dartlec]

To be honest I couldn’t wait any longer myself so I’ve just nipped round to the house and pulled the floorboards (by hand) as he didn’t re fit them properly and to be honest I didn’t think it could get any worse

He had to extend the cables as they would not reach so everything your about to see is what he has done. They may be the original JBs but he has re used them and, Well. Here you go. Have a look

One of the JBs I couldn’t open because it’s so tort to the ceiling/floor plasterboard that there is no play to twist it enough to open the screw let alone move it. And this is how I found it so nothing secured all floating with bare circuits (al be it a dead old shower 6mm (doesn't look like 10mm, maybe 6mm so probably better i didnt have him re-connect it as it was running an 8.5kw shower). I asked him not to reconnect as we’re removing it for mixer shower off boiler)

I’m pretty upset to be honest. I know it was only £250 but I thought it would be done to at least a basic standard. I could have done that better if I was allowed, I’m not and he is and he has certificates telling people he is allowed to install that and why oh why oh why. Any way. Any Thoughts on the JBs?? (I say sarcastically), He couldn't even put any sleeving on the bare cpc's.

I did safely isolate before opening the JBs

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it's not clear exactly which bits he extended in that mess - any new cabling he added would be in the new colours surely? (perhaps I'm assuming too much!).

Any junction boxes that he worked on that were going under the floor should have been in Maintenance Free junction boxes - and to be honest it's so much easier to do things in Wago boxes with Wago connectors in any case that I have no idea why anyone would do anything else these days.

I assume the broken JB with the 6mm in is currently isolated completely at the consumer unit, not just turned off at an MCB? Surely that new cable (brown/blue) was not put in and left by him like that?

If it's not needed then it should be cut off or removed from that junction box so that it can't be reconnected by error in future...

JBs under the floor like this should always be mentioned on an EICR (even if only as a C3) - usually of course they are not detected because floors aren't pulled up, but in this case if he had to work on them then there's no excuse for not correcting the ones on any circuits he worked on at least - and ideally replacing the whole lot as part of the work...

I'd say it was reasonable for you to lose all faith in him at this point and point that out to check a trade etc, though I'm not sure I have great faith in their procedures, since their interest is in continuing to get payment from the people on their list.

What I find astonishing is that someone who is paying Checkatrade, NAPIT, and clearly has a tester and enough qualifications to get onto NAPITs list to start with, can possibly afford to only charge £250 for his work

He clearly doesn't value his own time or work much. As it turns out, he appears to be correct and possibly overestimating it!

Even if he thought he was being kind by undercharging and cutting corners to save costs, in fact he's just made it more expensive and time consuming to get up to a suitable standard.

In an ideal world, I'd want someone to come out and write an independent report on the state of the work that has been done (as well as the existing electrical installation). In practise, I'm not sure how that will happen though, unless NAPIT show some interest.

I would wait until you have heard back about the Part P notification in particularly, and then approach NAPIT directly, as well as CheckaTrade, and maybe even the local building control.

Document everything, with photographs, and be clear on what was done by him and what was already there (but that he was aware of) as it will make things easier if anything comes of it.

Someone needs to take responsibility for the fact that a registered competent person has left you with this, but the evidence suggests that no-one really wants to.

It may be something to bring to the attention of your MP/Council, etc - so that they can perhaps pass it on to the people who do want to improve standards for everyone.

The only good news is that since he seems to have done such a slipshod job, he probably hasn't done any damage that can't be put right by a COMPETENT person with a few hours of work.

 

[minorcamount]

I have a paper trail and a lot of evidence now compiled.

a) The before and after photos
b) The incorrect certificate with his name, address and signature on
c) The original contact request through check-a-trade website
d) All the text messages between us regarding appointment times, etc etc and the conversation regarding the wrong certificate.

so he will be hard pressed to say it was not him that installed it.

I have text him for his email address, so I can put it all in writing with images with regards to the problems found and see what he wants to do. Problem is it was only £250, I can imagine its going to cost 3 times that to put it right and safe, those JB's are not safe.

 

[Dartlec]

Even worse than I expected.

Was he a limbo dancer? He seems to keep managing to slide under the bar, no matter how much I've lowered it after reading each post!

 

[Dartlec]

I have a paper trail and a lot of evidence now compiled.

a) The before and after photos
b) The incorrect certificate with his name, address and signature on
c) The original contact request through check-a-trade website
d) All the text messages between us regarding appointment times, etc etc and the conversation regarding the wrong certificate.

so he will be hard pressed to say it was not him that installed it.

I have text him for his email address, so I can put it all in writing with images with regards to the problems found and see what he wants to do. Problem is it was only £250, I can imagine its going to cost 3 times that to put it right and safe, those JB's are not safe.

Well done for having all that information together - it will certainly help. Do you have any invoice or proof of payment?
I would contact NAPIT and ask them for advice at this point, and see if you can send them the documents/photos etc that you have in writing.

In theory NAPIT have the power to make him come back and correct everything to suitable standards, but unless they were also willing to check and certify his work, I'm not sure I'd be comfortable with that even third hand, so I'm not surprised if you don't want him in the house again.

It's understandable that you feel pessimistic after the experiences you've had, but from what I've seen I don't think that it will be necessarily expensive to get to an acceptable standard, if you can find someone able to do it.

The consumer unit you have, even if not ideal, is capable of being installed in a compliant way - if it was mounted correctly, the cables connected correctly, and the junction boxes sorted, then a full EICR done, that should still be possible in under a day. (Assuming there aren't other things he's missed).

It may be worth getting quotes from 2 or 3 electricians and making sure they visit before they give you the figure.

 

[timhoward]

I know, its gone past shocking and got to upsetting now.

I can believe that, and it's upsetting to see work like this.

A passing thought - Is there any way you could have an incorrect name and address? I'm just wondering if he isn't actually the person you looked up. Don't get me wrong, there are some real cowboys in CPS schemes but the price charged is so low and I struggle to see how anyone can work to this standard, make ends meet, and have any interest in remaining in a competent person scheme. By the time insurance, scheme membership, publications, calibration is factored in I can't see how he's making any money if he's in a scheme.

As above, you can complain to Napit. In theory they stand behind the quality of work and warranty it for a long time afterwards. They may uphold the complaint, but to my knowledge they can only insist the same member rectifies things - I've never known or heard of any other outcome.

Have you paid the bill yet? I'm guessing so.

I think there are two routes forwards. Either go to Napit as @Dartlec said above. Or....

You may consider writing a letter of complaint saying that there is a consensus from some other electricians that the work is not up to standard in several ways, and you would like a partial refund (total bill less Screwfix price for that CU). If he would like 3rd party arbitration then you are happy to approach Napit and Check-a-trade to obtain impartial advice and confirmation that the work is up to standard.
You are concerned about the following aspects:
-Failure to confirm that supply was in a safe condition before work started
-Unauthorised conversion of earthing system to TN
-Cables inadequately contained
-Access to live parts
-Cables inadequately supported
-Consumer unit missing parts and inadequately supported.
-Incorrect certification
-Notifiable works being carried out without notification occurring.
(I could go on)

This doesn't prevent you going to Napit if you get no response.

 

[minorcamount]

I can believe that, and it's upsetting to see work like this.

A passing thought - Is there any way you could have an incorrect name and address? I'm just wondering if he isn't actually the person you looked up. Don't get me wrong, there are some real cowboys in CPS schemes but the price charged is so low and I struggle to see how anyone can work to this standard, make ends meet, and have any interest in remaining in a competent person scheme. By the time insurance, scheme membership, publications, calibration is factored in I can't see how he's making any money if he's in a scheme.

As above, you can complain to Napit. In theory they stand behind the quality of work and warranty it for a long time afterwards. They may uphold the complaint, but to my knowledge they can only insist the same member rectifies things - I've never known or heard of any other outcome.

Have you paid the bill yet? I'm guessing so.

I think there are two routes forwards. Either go to Napit as @Dartlec said above. Or....

You may consider writing a letter of complaint saying that there is a consensus from some other electricians that the work is not up to standard in several ways, and you would like a partial refund (total bill less Screwfix price for that CU). If he would like 3rd party arbitration then you are happy to approach Napit and Check-a-trade to obtain impartial advice and confirmation that the work is up to standard.
You are concerned about the following aspects:
-Failure to confirm that supply was in a safe condition before work started
-Unauthorised conversion of earthing system to TN
-Cables inadequately contained
-Access to live parts
-Cables inadequately supported
-Consumer unit missing parts and inadequately supported.
-Incorrect certification
-Notifiable works being carried out without notification occurring.
(I could go on)

This doesn't prevent you going to Napit if you get no response.

Great post, thank you, and thank you to every other member who has chipped in with advice...

Unfortunately I paid cash, only thing I have is a paper trail of him quoting £250 and on the same day me withdrawing £250 from cash machine (Nottraceable I know) but hey ho.

It seemed like he did it as a side job, he came at 16:30 pm and finished about 19:15 so it seemed looking back now that he did his days graft and this was a side job on the way home to earn extra spending money/beer money/....... if you get what I mean.

He had a young lad with him (Apprentice maybe?) poor lad if he is an apprentice learning from him.

The address and name on the certificate he gave does match up with whats on check-a-trade contact details and he is trading as a LTD company. <<His Name>> Ltd. so for example Joe Bloggs Ltd.

That, his phone number, LTD company reg details and check-a-trade and Napit all match, I didn't go as far as asking for his ID / driving licence to check it was him when he arrived but I'm sure it was the person named on the certs and sites. But i can imagine in the past people have created whole untraceable personas/ids to do such things..

As upset as I am with the ordeal, I suppose I will have to chalk it down to experience and try be even more thorough in future when selecting tradesmen/women.

 

[Dartlec]

Great post, thank you, and thank you to every other member who has chipped in with advice...

Unfortunately I paid cash, only thing I have is a paper trail of him quoting £250 and on the same day me withdrawing £250 from cash machine (Nottraceable I know) but hey ho.

It seemed like he did it as a side job, he came at 16:30 pm and finished about 19:15 so it seemed looking back now that he did his days graft and this was a side job on the way home to earn extra spending money/beer money/....... if you get what I mean.

He had a young lad with him (Apprentice maybe?) poor lad if he is an apprentice learning from him.

The address and name on the certificate he gave does match up with whats on check-a-trade contact details and he is trading as a LTD company. <<His Name>> Ltd. so for example Joe Bloggs Ltd.

That, his phone number, LTD company reg details and check-a-trade and Napit all match, I didn't go as far as asking for his ID / driving licence to check it was him when he arrived but I'm sure it was the person named on the certs and sites. But i can imagine in the past people have created whole untraceable personas/ids to do such things..

As upset as I am with the ordeal, I suppose I will have to chalk it down to experience and try be even more thorough in future when selecting tradesmen/women.

It may be better all round to move on, but I'd still encourage you to report it to Napit and CheckaTrade - with Napit, it might at the very least be raised at his next annual assessment and some questions asked.

If you employ someone else to sort the work, ensure they will be happy proving a Part P certificate once they have done the work. It may be possible for them to "uninstall" the CU you have, then "reinstall" it and certify it.

There are of course benefits to other options, such as Surge Protection, RCBOs etc, which a good electrician will talk through with you.