Advice on safety of new Consumer Unit Install

[minorcamount]

Hi all, new to posting but been reading for years.

I inherited a house from my grandmother who passed in 2021, I intend to renovate and rent out, step by step, job by job as money allows.

Getting the property ready to rent has uncovered a fair few jobs needed to bring it out of the 1970's

I knew the electrics needed sorting so found an electrician via Check-a-trade website. He inspected wiring and said I just need an upgrade to the consumer unit. old system was 2 old bakalite cu's on day night mode I think it was called (2 different tariffs for day and night)

So he quoted and installed a single consumer unit dual rcds. 5 original circuits but I told him to disregard the shower as I would be installing a mixer tap shower .

Circuits now are, Cooker, Lights up & Lights Down on same breaker, Sockets Up and Sockets Down on separate breakers (He said their all radial circuits)

Now here comes the question as I don't think its safe.

He has installed the new consumer unit half on and half off the wooden board that the meter and main fuse are on.

Used 1 screw to fix it, the half of the consumer unit hanging off the wooden backing board there is a 30 to 35mm gap behind to the wall.

There is one screw in the bottom left into the board (I know, I took the cover off (I did safely isolate)) The CU is so unstable and wobbly.

He has had to move the CU approx 10 inch down and 14 inch to the right, so he has joined the wires above the ceiling to extend them by using junction boxes (Old bakalite types, so they must have already been there) They are free hanging between the joists under the bedroom floorboards which is just above the CU on the kitchen wall.

CU is installed at top of kitchen wall (2200mm from floor level, approx) so not accessible for kids to pull off wall or anything but it is still very loose.

There is no strip around the rear entry knockout and no fire barrier, just a large knockout with the several wires coming in.

Is this right? Safe? I need a EICR before I rent, will this even pass with those issues?

I can take photos and post them if you can't quite get what I mean.

Thanks in advance, I just want to be prepared in what I say when (if i should) call him back in to put it right.

Now, maybe the thing that should have rang alarm bells is he charged £250, is that too cheap?, I have had a glance on line and seen its usually £400 upwards.

I did as mentioned get him through check-a-trade so thought he would be reputable and everything, ultimately I want to know where I stand before contacting them and him.

thanks for the patience in reading this long winded post.

David

 

[Electro-tech]

Can you please post pictures & have you mentioned your concerns to the electrician ? What accreditation scheme is he with NICIEC or NAPIT etc? Any Certification documents?

 

[minorcamount]

Can you please post pictures & have you mentioned your concerns to the electrician ? What accreditation scheme is he with NICIEC or NAPIT etc? Any Certification documents?

Not contacted him yet, I wanted to get as much info as possible to back myself up when speaking to him.

I will check which accreditation's he has and report back, I will also post pics later this afternoon when I visit the property and take some.

Thanks

 

[minorcamount]

I can see he is accredited to NAPIT not seeing anything else yet.

 

[DPG]

What certificates did you get for this CU replacement?

Free hanging JBs with no strain relief do not meet regulations.

 

[minorcamount]

What certificates did you get for this CU replacement?

He did give me a certificate, Its at the house at moment so will grab it when I go take photos,

 

[Electro-tech]

That is a start await photos later.

 

[minorcamount]

As a new member here on these forums what can and can't I post? Photos? Links to video? obviously I'll blank out any personal info but is it ok to post the certificate here?

 

[DPG]

As a new member here on these forums what can and can't I post? Photos? Links to video? obviously I'll blank out any personal info but is it ok to post the certificate here?

Yes it will be fine, as long as any names and addresses are redacted.

 

[minorcamount]

Attached some photos, forgot to take image of Certificate, I will do that tomorrow.

 

[James]

That looks like an orgy in a snake pit.

It should be securely fitted to the wall so if it is going to stay where it is then a couple of wooden battens behind it and add some extra screws.

there should be some cover that goes over the shiny copper at the bottom of the board so you cant touch it when the cover is off.
BEWARE the shiny copper bits are LIVE.

all in all at £250 I think you were overcharged.
It is not the worst job i have seen but it is pretty dam poor workmanship in my opinion.

 

[JBW175]

Lazy, lazy and rough as dog rubbish install.

I could do better after 8 pints of Old Rosie.

He could have mounted it to the right of that wooden board and secured it properly, renewed the tails, and brought the cables in through the top knockouts using correct glanding.

BG screwfix special

 

[SJD]

Quite apart from the rough install,
(a) I'd always install a board with at least a couple of spare ways for future use
(b) nowadays I'd install an all-RCBO board, so one circuit tripping the RCD doesn't disconnect other circuits
But I guess at such a 'cheap' price, this is what you'd expect.

Edit: just remembered the shower circuit is not used, so I guess there is one spare way.

 

[James]

https://www.electriciansforums.net/attachments/img_8234-jpg.38132/

not one of mine, but that is a really good looking install just to give you some comparisons.

 

[DPG]

Oh my word. That is abysmal. Looking forward to seeing the test results.

 

[UNG]

Where is the Main Earth Terminal or has the neutral terminal become multi purpose

 

[DPG]

Where is the Main Earth Terminal or has the neutral terminal become multi purpose

I think the earth bar in the CU is being used as the MET isn't it?

 

[UNG]

I think the earth bar in the CU is being used as the MET isn't it?

So who took the decision on it being a TNC-S supply

 

[DPG]

So who took the decision on it being a TNC-S supply

Yeah fair point

 

[Dartlec]

It's definitely not a neat install or one done with good workmanship, but I'd say it would be unusual to get that for £250.

The board is a Screwfix special, but he did splash out and fit Type A RCDs, so 69.99, instead of the £49.99 option. He also used a gland for the meter tails, so he is already some way ahead of the average DIY board changer.

It should definitely be secured more firmly - with battens between it and the wall where it overhangs, and the wires to the top of the MCBs should really be better installed, with no copper on show - but then the BG supplied cables fail on that basis too!

There should also be a plastic cover sitting in front of the bus bars, so that even removing the front cover does not expose lots of live copper...

Other than that I'm not actually seeing anything that would count as unsafe. You mentioned the extended cables, but there's no picture of that so tough to make comment.

Check online with NAPIT if you haven't already that he is actually registered, as it's been known for people to claim membership of a scheme when they aren't.

If he is a NAPIT member, then that will give you some comeback should there be a problem. Check that he will be providing a Part P certificate, as well as an Electrical installation Certificate.

If you get those, then there is probably not much to be concerned about. I would not use him for the EICR though, as that will give you an independent and more thorough inspection that what he has done is at least safe.

 

[minorcamount]

Thanks to all that have replied, I have checked Napit site, he is on there as Domestic Installer EAS/CPS. I will take more photos under the floorboards just above the CU in the bedroom floorspace where the JBs are, and upload the certificate he gave me.

Apart from that, and pending all of the good folks advice on here regarding the JBs, should I be at least be asking him to come back and secure the CU better by putting some battens under the overhang side?


Regards

Dave

 

[123]

Dual RCD board for 4 circuits? Why oh why?

Pictures of the junction boxes could be interesting...is this a bungalow or where the void above is usually accessible?

 

[minorcamount]

Another quick Q,

He quoted £100 for the EICR, Looking at instructing someone else, how much should I be looking to pay? around double that??

 

[minorcamount]

Dual RCD board for 4 circuits? Why oh why?

Pictures of the junction boxes could be interesting...is this a bungalow or where the void above is usually accessible?

No its a 2 bedroom end terrace, upstairs and down,

 

[minorcamount]

So who took the decision on it being a TNC-S supply

Just to add to your question, it may help it may not. I am one of the end terrace of a terrace of 7. We are all on a looped supply, 1 loop comes up my side wall splits to mine then feeds 2 other properties so 3 of the 7 from the incoming loop on my wall, then the remaining 4 in the terrace are looped together on a separate incoming loop on the end of the wall of the other end terrace the other side.

Its a rubber incoming cable with 2 cores. The earthing arrangement has always been like this.


I have also attached a photo of the setup before he came in and installed the new CU

On another note regards the loop, have a look at these pictures and see how dangerous this looks to you

 

[minorcamount]

My grandmother had storage heaters and no gas supply, so I think she had different peak tariffs for the storage heaters to heat-up at night. I know have gas line installed and central heating system installed

 

[James]

Whatever you do, DO NOT put your ladders anywhere near those supply cables.
a call to the dno to inform them of damage to your supply cable would be prudent.

 

[littlespark]

Whatever you do, DO NOT put your ladders anywhere near those supply cables.
a call to the dno to inform them of damage to your supply cable would be prudent.

Yeh… I had a bit of a panic when I saw that close up of the incomers.

 

[westward10]

@UNG is correct they have created their own 'earthing system' which was not there before. The whole installation is appalling and carried out by someone with little or no electrical skills.

 

[Vortigern]

Is that overhead supply? Looks like it was TT and the installer converted it to TN-C-S perhaps without DNO approval. Another point to raise with the DNO, not so much to catch out the guy but to ensure regularisation of conversion as some areas cannot/will not convert. I see the seals have been removed so looks like a bit of a chancer on the job. Exposed copper at the terminals and can't wait to see the JBs' if the terminations in the JB echo the CU well I think it would profit from an inspection and perhaps remedy. I wonder what the test results were??? In any event looking at the supply wire, if indeed they are in use, the "electrician" should not even have started work without getting the DNO in first so that is a bit worrying.

 

[UNG]

Just to add to your question, it may help it may not. I am one of the end terrace of a terrace of 7. We are all on a looped supply, 1 loop comes up my side wall splits to mine then feeds 2 other properties so 3 of the 7 from the incoming loop on my wall, then the remaining 4 in the terrace are looped together on a separate incoming loop on the end of the wall of the other end terrace the other side.

Its a rubber incoming cable with 2 cores. The earthing arrangement has always been like this.


I have also attached a photo of the setup before he came in and installed the new CU
View attachment 98921

The earthing arrangement in this picture is clearly different to the picture posted after the works to replace the CU as there is no earth cable connected in the neutral of the service head, that now begs the question how was the installation earthed previously and that was probably via an earth rod
Looking at some of the other pictures (no insulation on external supply conductors) it clearly indicates that no contact has been made with the DNO by the contractor so it looks like the contractor has taken the creative decision to make the supply TNC-S when this may not be available on the existing supply
I think the contractor needs to answer some questions on this one and it also needs the DNO to be involved before someone is seriously injured
I would also be contacting NAPIT and Check a Trade as it is time these schemes stepped upto the plate and took action against the rogues they approve

 

[pc1966]

The earthing arrangement in this picture is clearly different to the picture posted after the works to replace the CU as there is no earth cable connected in the neutral of the service head, that now begs the question how was the installation earthed previously and that was probably via an earth rod

No sign of a VOELCB though which I would expect to see on a TT design of that era, but equally no sign of a supply earth.

Is it possible it relied on the water pipe for a low impedance earth before? Maybe someone remembered when that became a no-no in the reg? I have seen something similar on a property with a likely original installation in the 1940s.

 

[timhoward]

This has been a most interesting thread to read.

Maybe someone remembered when that [water pipe as legitimate earth] became a no-no in the reg?

I asked this a while ago on here, and I was told somewhere between 1940 and 1950.

The original concerns in this thread are relatively minor compared the to state of the incoming supply and the very naughty TN conversion (presumably without permission). Main thing is to call the DNO and it should be a high priority job.

 

[minorcamount]

Update.

Sorry I did not say in my post, but I noticed the incoming supply at the same time as the electrics were done, the electrician who changed the CU was aware of the incoming cables and the state they were in.

I did ring the DNO, Northern Powergrid, I explained on the phone about the cables being bare, they asked me to email pictures (the exact ones I posted on here) within 45 minutes someone came out to look at them, within 2 hours of that, they (DNO) were digging up the garden and replacing it, So it has been replaced.

The old box on the outside wall has gone and there is a new cable coming up the existing pipe and connected into the existing cable which is clipped in the photo horizontally. Have photos if interested!

The property was built 1946, my grandmother had some electric work done in early 1980s (don't know what though) but nothing since then.

When I had the central heating system installed back in March, the electrician who wired the boiler fused spur did mention something along the lines of there is no earth! and mentioned something about a ''PME'' (I could have that wrong), but he said i need the dno to provide an earth.

What he did do is he said he will run a bond which he said is not ideal but better than nothing. After he finished I looked and he ran a 10mm earth bond from the water pipe inlet up the wall capped, through the ceiling, under floor upstairs and down in to old consumer unit, The water never had an earth bond, the property never had gas until March this year.


If you look in the photos of what the electrics were like before the CU install, you can see the temporary earth coming through the ceiling originating from the water pipe.

So from all that I take it the property has never had a connection to earth and possible still doesn't if he has done it incorrectly, do I need to check with the DNO to see if its capable of being run the way he has it?

The guy who installed the CU did bond the gas by piggy backing the bond clamp on the water pipe near by.

 

[Dartlec]

Update.

Sorry I did not say in my post, but I noticed the incoming supply at the same time as the electrics were done, the electrician who changed the CU was aware of the incoming cables and the state they were in.

I did ring the DNO, Northern Powergrid, I explained on the phone about the cables being bare, they asked me to email pictures (the exact ones I posted on here) within 45 minutes someone came out to look at them, within 2 hours of that, they (DNO) were digging up the garden and replacing it, So it has been replaced.

The old box on the outside wall has gone and there is a new cable coming up the existing pipe and connected into the existing cable which is clipped in the photo horizontally. Have photos if interested!

The property was built 1946, my grandmother had some electric work done in early 1980s (don't know what though) but nothing since then.

When I had the central heating system installed back in March, the electrician who wired the boiler fused spur did mention something along the lines of there is no earth! and mentioned something about a ''PME'' (I could have that wrong), but he said i need the dno to provide an earth.

What he did do is he said he will run a bond which he said is not ideal but better than nothing. After he finished I looked and he ran a 10mm earth bond from the water pipe inlet up the wall capped, through the ceiling, under floor upstairs and down in to old consumer unit, The water never had an earth bond, the property never had gas until March this year.


If you look in the photos of what the electrics were like before the CU install, you can see the temporary earth coming through the ceiling originating from the water pipe.

So from all that I take it the property has never had a connection to earth and possible still doesn't if he has done it incorrectly, do I need to check with the DNO to see if its capable of being run the way he has it?

The guy who installed the CU did bond the gas by piggy backing the bond clamp on the water pipe near by.

Definitely interested in some photos of the new install!

As others have said, it appears that the consumer unit is not the main issue here.

It's likely if they have put a new install in that it is PME capable (which means that an earth could be run as it has been). However, the key is that ONLY the DNO can decide and do that.

It is probably a good idea to contact them again and explain and ask for an earth safety check. They may be able to confirm that the earth is acceptable as it is, and will do it correctly with their labels and an earth terminal.

There are ways to test whether PME is possible/effective, and the electrician may have done that, but it's still not within his remit to decide to change it.

That doesn't make what is in place now unsafe necessarily - though the readings on the certificate will be helpful in deciding that.

It appears that you've been let down by two electricians here.

The first one who did the boiler should have either contacted the DNO themselves or got you to do it, and had them in to see if they could upgrade the earth - at that point I expect they would have noticed the outside cabling and arranged for it to be changed.

The water bonding was necessary as well, so not a waste that he did it, just that it was not an acceptable alternative to a proper main earth. Do you know the if gas has been bonded now too?

The second electrician should not have done anything with the outside cable in that state - they should have called the DNO themselves as an emergency job and waited for it to be fixed before proceeding. They should absolutely not (if they did) have connected the earth up as they did, even if tests suggested that the install was PME.

Now that the new supply is installed, the good news is that it is probably not a huge amount of work to get things into an entirely satisfactory state. It seems like what you need is a competent electrician to oversee ensuring everything is as it should be - and maybe the one who does the EICR could be that.

I would find a few from the NAPIT or NICEIC site that are rated to do EICRs, and contact them for a discussion/quote, but explain the situation. You sound like you have a good enough grasp of the issues now to be able to spot those who do not give good clear answers as to how they would proceed.

Sadly as you've found, ensuring they have membership is not the guarantee it should be.

Not sure if any of the forum members are close to Bradford and willing to assist, or can recommend someone who is reliable and competent.

It may also be worth contacting NAPIT, I am told they have a rather better approach to maintaining their standards than some, so they may be able to assist. Usually, they ask that you go through a complaints procedure with the electrician first, but in this case, if you show them the pictures (or direct them to this post), they may be willing to take a more proactive approach. If I was a NAPIT member, I might even raise it myself with them as a poor example of the "brand" that I was paying for the privilege of representing.

In terms of price for an EICR, it's not always a good guide - You should be able to get a perfectly good EICR for less than £200. I would avoid national firms who specialise in EICRs as they have a habit of fitting in as many in a day as they could and barely scraping the surface.

 

[Colin Jenkins 01]

No sign of a VOELCB though which I would expect to see on a TT design of that era, but equally no sign of a supply earth.

Is it possible it relied on the water pipe for a low impedance earth before? Maybe someone remembered when that became a no-no in the reg? I have seen something similar on a property with a likely original installation in the 1940s.

Hello pc1966.

A metal water pipe was commonly used as the earth with no VOELCB in domestic urban and rural installations until the 14th Edition, 1966. I would guess this was originally one such installation. I would think it should be TT now, but would check with the DNO first.

Regards,

Colin Jenkins.

 

[Electro-tech]

Did the electrician offer you Surge or Arc fault protection, and as you are going to be letting the property you are going to need fire detectors.

 

[minorcamount]

No Surge or Arc offered

Update to some photos here and the paper work he gave me which says it’s an EICR report strangely. So has he done an EICR as well as the CU install

Also a picture of how he left the gas bonding which was behind the kitchen unit, after I pulled the old kitchen out this is what was left

I did find an old bond on the water so the pipe was previously bonded unlike what I thought when I said it was not

Also the photo of the incoming supply after dno changed it in 2 hrs from call which was fast repair, but then again it was really bad and dangerous

 

[westward10]

You should have an Electrical Installation Certificate for the consumer unit change and a Part P Certificate. That Report is nothing short of disgraceful.
Did he have a care worker with him.

 

[minorcamount]

You should have an Electrical Installation Certificate for the consumer unit change and a Part P Certificate. That Report is nothing short of disgraceful.
Did he have a care worker with him.

Unfortunately westward, that is the only paperwork he gave me!

So I should be contacting him and asking for those 2 certificates?