Electrical Diagrams

[Knobhead]

Drive references,
All the panels I worked on once we got rid on the open slate panels would be draw out starters. We would keep spares of these to hand. If you couldn’t repair a draw in situ you would get a spare and fit that. The internal wiring was numbered the same be it a 0.5HP drive or 150HP. Bigger drives were hard wired in the cubical.
View attachment 11273
It was the cubical that had the drive reference. I worked on kilns so the first reference would be the kiln number. Second reference the tier in the panel working from the left (a letter). Third reference was the cubical number from the top.
So for a cubical on kiln 2, 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] tier, 4[SUP]th[/SUP] cubical down the reference would be K2/C/4/ followed by the wire number.
View attachment 11274

 

[vaughant]

Some great replies as usual.
I certainly wasn't trying to slate apprentices in anyway,I'm just wondering if this is/was common practice to not put such an emphasis on drawings as on my apprenticeship we basically spent 2 years learning control circuits from diagrams,we would get or produce our own diagram,wire it on an old panel in the workshop,swap round and do a maintenance check on the panel that everything was in place,cable numbers,terminals tight etc then rectify any faults and leave the room.
Then the instructors would put various faults on and you were on your own then to find them,90 minutes for 3 faults,some were obvious like a wire out of say L1 to a motor so it turned slow and tripped but some could be really sneaky buggers and snip a return wire within trunking or remove the coil from a relay,sneaky stuff!!!
But it was good and very beneficial,I probably didn't feel that at the time but looking back I can see how great the training was and I'm glad I made it through.
I suppose that's the point of this thread,not to show how clever we are(or not in my case!!!) but to perhaps help others who may not have done a lot of this and spent most of their time looking at the "sparkies arse" while he fixes it and just tells them what it is afterwards,not much learning involved there.

To those who say there aren't good schematics where they work I feel your pain,theres a bad culture where I am of "he knows,ask him" not "there's the diagram,have a look" and also "that was changed 10 years ago,don't you remember?" not when I've been here a year no!!!

However the only way we can improve it is to be a bit more proactive,perhaps sketch it out one day when your free,even a basic drawing,or check who made alterations and see where it's documented,it usually is somewhere (usually obscure!!!).

I'll try getting some PLC diagrams up for the less familiar and a few explanations of how it all works.

 

[fancypantsyeah]

All the apprentices we've had over the past few years have had the same problem. Expecting everything on a plate. In fact in 5 years only one out of 20-30 has gone out of his way to learn more, and because of that fact he's now being given opertunitys above anything we've ever given. Rant over lol.

i can honestly say when i was an apprentice i went the extra mile as far as im concerned .... i love being a aspark and take real pride in my work.....
iknow the type of folk ya on about and they don't usually make good sparks just do enough to get by.....
but i stand by what i said some of the fellas that ive herad about in past cannot be arsed with it or have been to busy to train properly........
so it a double sided edge.......

 

[Engineer54]

i can honestly say when i was an apprentice i went the extra mile as far as im concerned .... i love being a aspark and take real pride in my work.....
iknow the type of folk ya on about and they don't usually make good sparks just do enough to get by.....
but i stand by what i said some of the fellas that ive herad about in past cannot be arsed with it or have been to busy to train properly........
so it a double sided edge.......

It's not only those that can't be arsed as you say..lol!! Some just don't have the aptitude for this kind of work, they just can't get there head around it. I've known some dammed good electricians and Engineers come to that, who just can't fault find process control circuitry. So it's not always just the lack of trying, but i agree with you, some are happy to just do enough to get by.

 

[fancypantsyeah]

It's not only those that can't be arsed as you say..lol!! Some just don't have the aptitude for this kind of work, they just can't get there head around it. I've known some dammed good electricians and Engineers come to that, who just can't fault find process control circuitry. So it's not always just the lack of trying, but i agree with you, some are happy to just do enough to get by.

lol,,lol,,, i was on about the guys who sometimes et left to teach the new apprenices ,,, not the lads ho wanna be sparks.......the psarkies who choose or a choosen to teach the new lads should have to do a course of somekind to see if they have the right attitude and aptitude and pacience for the job in hand .... ya could be the best sparkie in the world but ya may not be able to teach others .......lol.......

 

[fancypantsyeah]

Some great replies as usual.
I certainly wasn't trying to slate apprentices in anyway,I'm just wondering if this is/was common practice to not put such an emphasis on drawings as on my apprenticeship we basically spent 2 years learning control circuits from diagrams,we would get or produce our own diagram,wire it on an old panel in the workshop,swap round and do a maintenance check on the panel that everything was in place,cable numbers,terminals tight etc then rectify any faults and leave the room.
Then the instructors would put various faults on and you were on your own then to find them,90 minutes for 3 faults,some were obvious like a wire out of say L1 to a motor so it turned slow and tripped but some could be really sneaky buggers and snip a return wire within trunking or remove the coil from a relay,sneaky stuff!!!
But it was good and very beneficial,I probably didn't feel that at the time but looking back I can see how great the training was and I'm glad I made it through.
I suppose that's the point of this thread,not to show how clever we are(or not in my case!!!) but to perhaps help others who may not have done a lot of this and spent most of their time looking at the "sparkies arse" while he fixes it and just tells them what it is afterwards,not much learning involved there.

To those who say there aren't good schematics where they work I feel your pain,theres a bad culture where I am of "he knows,ask him" not "there's the diagram,have a look" and also "that was changed 10 years ago,don't you remember?" not when I've been here a year no!!!

However the only way we can improve it is to be a bit more proactive,perhaps sketch it out one day when your free,even a basic drawing,or check who made alterations and see where it's documented,it usually is somewhere (usually obscure!!!).

I'll try getting some PLC diagrams up for the less familiar and a few explanations of how it all works.

iknow i have not had 2 years training looking at drawings , the old apprentice schemes were maybe more thorough than today.... i don't know.... everything seems to be fast track now........ or ya have to do another course to do be trained to read drawings ect , which meens more cash to be piad to get the said qualification......it never ends went ya a spark.....

 

[Engineer54]

lol,,lol,,, i was on about the guys who sometimes et left to teach the new apprenices ,,, not the lads ho wanna be sparks.......the psarkies who choose or a choosen to teach the new lads should have to do a course of somekind to see if they have the right attitude and aptitude and pacience for the job in hand .... ya could be the best sparkie in the world but ya may not be able to teach others .......lol.......

Sorry, ...Miss read your post it seems...lol!!

 

[fancypantsyeah]

Sorry, ...Miss read your post it seems...lol!!

no problemo e54........ ive done that a few times myself....lol.....

 

[sjj84]

lol,,lol,,, i was on about the guys who sometimes et left to teach the new apprenices ,,, not the lads ho wanna be sparks.......the psarkies who choose or a choosen to teach the new lads should have to do a course of somekind to see if they have the right attitude and aptitude and pacience for the job in hand .... ya could be the best sparkie in the world but ya may not be able to teach others .......lol.......

Yep, I whole heartily agree. The other problem is that management are constantly on the backs of the sparks that are trying to teach to get machines working again. If the spark has been there a long time, they may well have seen the fault before, so rather than fault finding or using drawings, they go straight to the fault rather than allowing the apprentices to get stuck in and have a go. It's a difficult one really, apprentices need guidance, not having it handed on a plate, but sometimes that opportunity just isn't given.

 

[UNG]

Yep, I whole heartily agree. The other problem is that management are constantly on the backs of the sparks that are trying to teach to get machines working again. If the spark has been there a long time, they may well have seen the fault before, so rather than fault finding or using drawings, they go straight to the fault rather than allowing the apprentices to get stuck in and have a go. It's a difficult one really, apprentices need guidance, not having it handed on a plate, but sometimes that opportunity just isn't given.

That is the other side of fault finding were certain faults are recurring ones and are just fixed using previous knowledge and experience

 

[aiden251181]

talking of drawings, im currently doing an evening class in CAD, and have 2006 at home. Does anybody have the electrical add ins, or a site where i can get them?

schneider website has most symbols and 3d models of components and rs website has a lot of 3d models of components



i also hate the guessing game. if i had a pound for everytime the apprentice used to guess and wasnt shown how to read drawings and work through a problem id be retired now (at 30 years old) I've now got 2 apprentices working in my dept. and have set up a training system for them because nobody seems to care if they can do the job or not. ive startred from the basics of using multimeters and reading drawings progressing through contactors relays and components, to plc's and nc diagnostics with their final project to pick a small machine and retro fit it (either actually doing the job and taking machine out of service for a bit or just drawings and programs and method statement which can be used to do the machine at a later date) my 3rd year apprentice has worked with me for 10 - 12 months and is now confident of going onto minor / medium breakdowns and sorting them himself sometimes with a little help but thats only to be expected. i just think if people have the knowledge and skills then share it with the apprentices / young lads

 

[vaughant]

Hey great to see this threads not all forgotten about.
I've got a nightshift weekend coming up (read hopefully sat on my behind all night) in just over a week so I'll dig some plc drawings out for those who want to learn and see what's what.
Had a cracking fault last night that took a fair bit of searching and incorporated pretty much everything discussed on the last few pages,particularly Tonys suggestion that you need to know the process of something to have half a chance sometimes.
I didn't,got caught out and ended up having to ring out for help,once the process was explained,the fault was found and rectified in about 1/2hr.

I'll dig the diagrams out and give a run through when I get a chance,it's a good one for particularly the less experienced out there.

 

[Besoeker]

@vaughant; this is something I will be covering with our apprentice and you have explained it well.

@sjj84 and RoB2; missing, incomplete, poor drawings is my pet hate. When I do a project I like to trace out what we have, cross-reference with the schematics if we have them then modify to complete. I then like to upgrade the schematics in... wait for it... MSWord... or AutoCAD if I can be bothered! I know for a fact that recent in-house projects in work have been done without the provision of schematics. How can you create a control system with no schematics?

About 9 years ago, because I'd done a course in CAD I was asked to upgrade some schematcs that were over twenty years old with pencilled-in changes/upgrades with supplementary smoke-packet sketches. These are a sample I provided (kept in the original format)...
View attachment 11245View attachment 11246View attachment 11247

Must agree that the German stuff is very organised and keeps you on your toes!

To be good at schemtic reading you do have to put some effort in and practice on different formats.

Well presented drawing if I may say so.

 

[Besoeker]

Just a little addendum to my previous post.

Of major aid and assistance assistance to understanding an electrical diagram is just how logically laid out.
There is a difference between a wiring diagram and a schematic.

 

[DuaneMHunt1976]

You do know the post is 3 and 1/3 years old

 

[Besoeker]

You do know the post is 3 and 1/3 years old

That's OK.

 

[cranedude]

being new to this site...finding it very interesting.

we have an apprentice just now..the first for over 20 years...the age gap between me and him is plus 25 years ..

im very aware that in a few short years he will be thrown into pressure situations..that i take for granted now..

im trying to instill in him a calm approach to faultfinding..heavy on the safety..also aware of my own shortcomings..and it can be a two way conversation.( im always learning everyday )..i often jump ten steps as most faults are repeated over many years..but that doesnt not help him one bit....start at the basics...n work from there..

When carrying out preventative maintenance i throw curveballs at him...identifying certain components..what to expect if this or that happens....and always always the safety side.


i remember as an apprentice my trainers sticking ( safely) bits of sellotape in certain obsure places....causing control ccts to act strange or incorrect.....and myself having to figure out the simulated fault...need to go back to this when i get a chance.

of course my fellow apprentices looked for bits of tape and threw the meter away....u dont get sellotape on real faults however