External Consumer Unit

[RickyB1990]

Good morning guys

Was looking for advice with regards to installing an outdoor consumer unit. Customer is looking for power to be installed from there property to an area in there garden. There installing a future hot tub and summer house and any future lighting and power. They currently have a small log cabin where I was going to situate a 4 or 6 way consumer unit which can feed any future points. My question is would it be best to fit a standard 18th edition metallic board inside a ip Rated cabinet? I've seen online there are ip65 consumer units which are plastic but obviously that wouldn't meet current regs. I'm just wondering if there is any other things to take into consideration with regards to temperatures

Any advice would be appreciated

 

[mainline]

Good morning guys

Was looking for advice with regards to installing an outdoor consumer unit. Customer is looking for power to be installed from there property to an area in there garden. There installing a future hot tub and summer house and any future lighting and power. They currently have a small log cabin where I was going to situate a 4 or 6 way consumer unit which can feed any future points. My question is would it be best to fit a standard 18th edition metallic board inside a ip Rated cabinet? I've seen online there are ip65 consumer units which are plastic but obviously that wouldn't meet current regs. I'm just wondering if there is any other things to take into consideration with regards to temperatures

Any advice would be appreciated

I think fitting a plastic ip rated Cu in what is basically a shed would be fine.

 

[littlespark]

Outside the house, in the garden or shed, wouldn’t need to be metal.

Even an IP rated unit shouldn’t be open to the elements.

 

[Ricky B]

Outside the house, in the garden or shed, wouldn’t need to be metal.

Even an IP rated unit shouldn’t be open to the elements.

Thanks

 

[Ricky B]

I think fitting a plastic ip rated Cu in what is basically a shed would be fine.

Thanks

 

[brianmoooore]

If you're looking for quality, use Vector II from Hager. A strong, well designed enclosure, which I've fitted many dozens of, without any failures, apart from the one that was mounted on a wall that was demolished by a runaway truck.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

Even an IP rated unit shouldn’t be open to the elements.

Why is that @littlespark ? How would it be different to, say, a caravan hookup?

 

[littlespark]

Why is that @littlespark ? How would it be different to, say, a caravan hookup?

Cos I’ve worked on a caravan site, and it doesn’t take long for them to deteriorate.

A little extra protection won’t go amiss is all I’m saying.

 

[SparkySy]

If you're looking for quality, use Vector II from Hager. A strong, well designed enclosure, which I've fitted many dozens of, without any failures, apart from the one that was mounted on a wall that was demolished by a runaway truck.

+1 These are excellent units. I have also fitted dozens of these with no issues!

 

[davesparks]

Why is that @littlespark ? How would it be different to, say, a caravan hookup?

Have a look at a caravan hookup that has been out in the elements for a few years without further protection and you'll see why.
They deteriorated quite quickly!

 

[pc1966]

I would agree - always put your units in some sort of outer protection to keep the worst of the weather and UV light off it.

Otherwise it will look a bit tatty in 2-3 years time and any imperfection in the sealing leads to big trouble. If you have some form of outer housing, such as GPR or even a decent wooden box, you won't see anything like the degradation that exposed stuff suffers.

 

[James]

The outdoor metal consumer units are far superior for long service life.
the stainless steel ones will probably outlive the person that installs it, but may well take almost as long to figure out how to pay for it.

 

[James]

https://www.blakley.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/SP104_Stainless_Steel_MCCB_and_MCB_Boards.pdf

 

[pc1966]

https://www.blakley.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/SP104_Stainless_Steel_MCCB_and_MCB_Boards.pdf

The Blakley stuff will last!

 

[SparkySy]

I favor these, many sizes available, especially for farm work to put a board or consumer unit in, usually the Hager Vector IP board.

https://www.cef.co.uk/catalogue/products/1867485-400mmx400mmx200mm-sheet-steel-enclosure-ip66?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwl4yyBhAgEiwADSEjeMmi3gZ34-y2_EZF8b4LDQ2yG3tSVrwv6Kc8-a34XCOrLmRat20vGBoCDvAQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

A lot cheaper than the Blakley range but not quite so bomb proof!

I fitted a Hager IP rated 3phase distribution board at a caravan park about 20 years ago that has just started to rust on the base plate. I find a couple of bags of Desiccant silica gelI in the enclosure work wonders too!
Sy

 

[James]

I use the sarel enclosures all the time for machine control panels.
they are good, with anything like that, a couple of ventilation holes in the bottom never do any harm.

 

[nicebutdim]

I favor these, many sizes available, especially for farm work to put a board or consumer unit in, usually the Hager Vector IP board.

https://www.cef.co.uk/catalogue/products/1867485-400mmx400mmx200mm-sheet-steel-enclosure-ip66?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwl4yyBhAgEiwADSEjeMmi3gZ34-y2_EZF8b4LDQ2yG3tSVrwv6Kc8-a34XCOrLmRat20vGBoCDvAQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

A lot cheaper than the Blakley range but not quite so bomb proof!

There are also stainless steel options in that range and not too expensive (comparatively).

 

[Mikegh]

I use the sarel enclosures all the time for machine control panels.
they are good, with anything like that, a couple of ventilation holes in the bottom never do any harm.

Does that work well for venting or would it promote damp inside ?

 

[pc1966]

I also found you need a couple of small drain holes on the bottom to avoid damp building up. I was surprised as in my case the boxes also partially vented inside, but maybe the temperature difference outside was causing condensation. If you cannot be 100% sure water will not get in by any route, then make sure it can at least get out again!

 

[James]

If it is well sealed and outdoors
Glorious sunshine all day, air inside heats up and expands.
If the panel is well sealed then the increase in pressure means some of the air gets forced out past a seal somewhere.

When it rains, the panel and the air inside rapidly cools and creates a partial vacuum inside the panel.
If there is any weakness in the seal system and water has collected at that point, the vacuum sucks it inside where as if the pressure was equal it may well just stay on the outside of the panel.

 

[Cbelectrics]

Good morning guys

Was looking for advice with regards to installing an outdoor consumer unit. Customer is looking for power to be installed from there property to an area in there garden. There installing a future hot tub and summer house and any future lighting and power. They currently have a small log cabin where I was going to situate a 4 or 6 way consumer unit which can feed any future points. My question is would it be best to fit a standard 18th edition metallic board inside a ip Rated cabinet? I've seen online there are ip65 consumer units which are plastic but obviously that wouldn't meet current regs. I'm just wondering if there is any other things to take into consideration with regards to temperatures

Any advice would be appreciated

Would advice the cabinet if outside just as good practice. While I can’t remember any specific regs for that one it would still come under making sure what you are installing is appropriate for the environment it is in.

Not sure what system you are on but you would also need to check your Ze readings to make sure the earth extension (from the supply) doesn’t make it go above the required level of 0.35 or 0.80. If it does it would need its own earth rod as it may not comply with the required trip times on the new ccu breakers.

 

[mainline]

Not sure what system you are on but you would also need to check your Ze readings to make sure the earth extension (from the supply) doesn’t make it go above the required level of 0.35 or 0.80. If it does it would need its own earth rod as it may not comply with the required trip times on the new ccu breakers.

I think you're getting a bit confused Between Ze and Zs.

 

[Cbelectrics]

I think you're getting a bit confused Between Ze and Zs.

No i am not. If you increase your Ze by extending your main earth conductor then you increase your Zs (Zs= Ze + (R1+R2)readings and therefore your circuit trip times (max Zs readings allowed in the regs so it disconnects in the appropriate time)That is why you have a max limit of ze in the regs of .35 and .80.

 

[Cbelectrics]

It is also why extending a DNO’s earthing arrangement is frowned upon for that very reason.

In most situations it won’t make much of a difference. However if someone does the work without that knowledge and installs a cable that’s too small that Ze reading will increase. Also if you live further from the DNO’s step down transformer the Ze will also increase before you have even thought about extending the earthing arrangement. So should also check a previous EICR for the Ze reading at the main head.

 

[westward10]

No i am not. If you increase your Ze by extending your main earth conductor then you increase your Zs (Zs= Ze + (R1+R2)readings and therefore your circuit trip times (max Zs readings allowed in the regs so it disconnects in the appropriate time)That is why you have a max limit of ze in the regs of .35 and .80.

You only have Ze at the source of supply everything else regarding the earth fault loop path is Zs. 0.35 and 0.80 are applicable to Ze neither of which are quoted in BS7671.

 

[mainline]

No i am not. If you increase your Ze by extending your main earth conductor then you increase your Zs (Zs= Ze + (R1+R2)readings and therefore your circuit trip times (max Zs readings allowed in the regs so it disconnects in the appropriate time)That is why you have a max limit of ze in the regs of .35 and .80.

The O/p Isn't extending his Main DB into the shed

 

[pc1966]

As above, Ze is at the supply point of the whole installation, and Zs (or Zdb if you prefer) at other locations. There is nothing special about the 0.35 / 0.8 ohm values, they are typically met from domestic TN-C-S or TN-S supplies but not guaranteed.

However, in the TN-C-S case they relate very closely to the DNO side supply drop under load, so if too large you will be failing on the ESQCR voltage range regulations anyway.

Beyond that your check on the loop impedance should be to establish if it is a fault or not, and if too high for your planned supply fault protection then you need to look again at it, perhaps a fuse for sub-main instead of a MCCB/MCB, or go down to route of a delay RCD for fault protection even on a TN supply.

 

[davesparks]

No i am not. If you increase your Ze by extending your main earth conductor then you increase your Zs (Zs= Ze + (R1+R2)readings and therefore your circuit trip times (max Zs readings allowed in the regs so it disconnects in the appropriate time)That is why you have a max limit of ze in the regs of .35 and .80.

Ze is the earth fault loop impedance of the external supply, that what the e stands for, external.

The Ze will stay the same regardless of what you install or where.

The regs do not set any limits for Ze. DNOs generally try to keep within the 0.35 or 0.80 values, but supplies can go above these limits. Generally when designing new distribution DNOs work to lower limits, I think UKPN have a design stage limit of 0.25 for a TNCS supply.

 

[Cbelectrics]

Fair enough on the point of Ze but it still applies that your measurements will increase at the new db effecting trip times.

 

[westward10]

Fair enough on the point of Ze but it still applies that your measurements will increase at the new db effecting trip times.

Zs will increase with Ze being a constant.

 

[davesparks]

Fair enough on the point of Ze but it still applies that your measurements will increase at the new db effecting trip times.

Yes measurements will increase, but that does not mean there is any problem, if everything is designed correctly the increased values will still be compliant.

 

[mainline]

Also if you live further from the DNO’s step down transformer the Ze will also increase before you have even thought about extending the earthing arrangement. So should also check a previous EICR for the Ze reading at the main head.

Personally, I would take a Ze measurement myself rather than rely on someone else's maybe drive by scrap of paper.