Settle an argument please.

[James]

Thanks James. I do have a background in electrical work. That was design and prototyping of switchgear as well as similar with battery backup systems for the rail, telecom and oil industries. All high current but often DC stuff. It has been a long time since I studied the regs (16th edition) and have never worked in the home arena having switched to working in IT in the late 90s. So while my knowledge is sound, I am very out of date and unfamiliar with how things are done in the home environment. Having said that, cable ratings were always a very important part of the design process as I am sure you know. A simple cock up in the choice of cable insulation could have cost us dearly.

Lets face it, cables have been pretty much the same for the last 30 years at least.
copper has not magically reduced is resistance so it generates the same amount of heat as it always has.
some improvements in insulation materials have happened but are not massive and may well not affect you in this circumstance.
in my opinion, the inspecting engineer has fcucked up either by human error or poor training.
you have a great argument that is backed by the reg's to have it repaired correctly at his expense in my opinion.

 

[loz2754]

Any individual who does that to a consumer unit should not be carrying out EICRs because they clearly do not understand the requirements of BS7671. I would like to meet this person.

I'll come with you...

 

[davesparks]

I wasn’t at home during the inspection, SWMBO was and paid for the extra work.

I’ve taken a pic, but the pointless bit of plastic seems to have fallen off. It is inside the house so now danger of getting rained on. Having said that, as is often the case the architect slapped the bathroom directly above. Sometimes architects need a kid hard kick in the love spuds.

Jesus christ, I'd say you have a case for pressing a charge of criminal damage there!

 

[Simon47]

Well probably not since SWMBO presumably gave permission for the "repair". So although the work was clearly ... err "substandard", it wouldn't be criminal damage.

 

[Simon47]

Just for the record, here is a pic of the cable and how it is clipped.

That's fine along the run, it's things like "does it pass through thermal insulation in the wall ? Not that it would alter things since it would be a) a short distance affected, and b) away from the connections at each end the cable could be used at it's full 90˚C rating.

 

[davesparks]

Well probably not since SWMBO presumably gave permission for the "repair". So although the work was clearly ... err "substandard", it wouldn't be criminal damage.

I very much doubt that SWMBO gave permission for a complaint installation to be made non-compliant and dangerous.

The installation has been changed from being compliant and safe to being non-compliant, the person responsible must be punished to the full extent of the law.

 

[Phill104]

That's fine along the run, it's things like "does it pass through thermal insulation in the wall ? Not that it would alter things since it would be a) a short distance affected, and b) away from the connections at each end the cable could be used at it's full 90˚C rating.

I wish I had thermal insulation. Typical early late 1970s /1980s cheap build. Breeze block, gap, brick with nothing in between. But yes, it is a very short distance. I am sure you can appreciate it is late at night and chucking it down so taking pics is challenging at best.

 

[Phill104]

I very much doubt that SWMBO gave permission for a complaint installation to be made non-compliant and dangerous.

The installation has been changed from being compliant and safe to being non-compliant, the person responsible must be punished to the full extent of the law.

SWMBO has zero idea about electrics, and why would she as it is way outside her area of expertise being a medical professional. She had to rely on the expertise, or lack, of the electrician that attended.

 

[Phill104]

How ironic someone finds an apparent Code 2 then rectified it by leaving at least one Code 2 in itself, absolutely unbelievable.

I would suggest it is a sad indictment of the current state of the industry regulation at the moment. I know there are many brilliant electricians out there who really do know their game. There does seem to be a trend of electrician’s doing bread and butter work such as EICR, PAT testing and EV charger installations for motor brands at a cheap and rushed price. It makes me wonder if these electricians loose the skills and knowledge they should have learnt because of the lack of doing a multitude of work. Just some thoughts as an outsider, albeit one with outdated electrical knowledge outside of domestic environments, so what would I know.

Just to add why I have some of these thoughts I will mention something that happened a year ago. My bosses boss had a summer house built in his garden. He was retiring and wanted somewhere to spend time. He hired an electrician to install lighting and electricity there. So an armoured spur was run inside ducting. This went to a small consumer unit in the summer house. The day after the install my bosses boss was looking at it and noticed a big hole in the front of the consumer unit. Being a bit daft and having what can only be described as having a senior moment, he put his finger through the hole. Yes, the inevitable happened. He was OK but shared a picture of the consumer unit with us all. Seems the electrician had signed off the install but did not put any blanks in the three spare ways. Even with the poor phone shot I could see the bare bus bar inside. I appreciate mistakes do happen, but that seems a fundamental basic. For me it was more the blase way his electrician responded to his complaint. He wasn’t happy about having to return to fix what to him was something so trivial. The sparkies comment “You should never have to open the cover anyway” in his email to my bosses bos lead me to a couple of seconds of sweary rant.

 

[Simon47]

It's all very well moaning about cut price jobs - but the reality is that the bulk of the population don't know much/anything about <pick whatever trade you like> and will choose on price. So unless you are lucky enough to work in an area (location) where there's a shortage, or where there's a higher than average proportion of "good" customers (the ones that consider value rather than price), then you have to climb down (at least partially) to the level that others have set.
And that always leads to a race to the bottom of the pond. No amount of regulation would fix it, in part because the cost of compliance would drive more of the better tradespeople out than it would of the bottom dwellers.

 

[James]

some of my best jobs and customer relations have come out of things like.

"your the 3rd electrician to try and fix this and we don't hold out much hope" type jobs.
I will not be beaten down on price, and it is not unusual for me to be called back later to fix the "cheep guys" work.

it is difficult to do at times, but try not to under sell yourself.

 

[Phill104]

some of my best jobs and customer relations have come out of things like.

"your the 3rd electrician to try and fix this and we don't hold out much hope" type jobs.
I will not be beaten down on price, and it is not unusual for me to be called back later to fix the "cheep guys" work.

it is difficult to do at times, but try not to under sell yourself.

I don’t blame the guys themselves much of the time. A friends EV installation looked horrible. It was sound, but just rushed and cheap. There wasn’t a straight line anywhere in the cable run and it just looked messy. The electrician was under pressure to do two to three installs for Mini per day. It really showed too. I ma sure the electrician was capable of a good job, but the way he was forced to work did not allow that. My friend had to get someone in to tidy things up as his better half was not happy. I imagine there are plenty of house builders putting pressure on their contractors to do a fast job using the cheapest of materials. That cannot be good for a new electricians self worth, or any electricians pride in their work.

On a more positive note, my EV installer did exactly as promised and rectified the work of the EICR chap. Why did he do it for free? Pride in his own work, and so he could write a report on the job as he found it. I also know that I will recommend him to everyone that asks. He will be getting an Xmas bonus from me.

 

[westward10]

And what are you going to do about the monkey that butchered your consumer unit?

 

[nicebutdim]

I don’t blame the guys themselves much of the time. A friends EV installation looked horrible. It was sound, but just rushed and cheap. There wasn’t a straight line anywhere in the cable run and it just looked messy. The electrician was under pressure to do two to three installs for Mini per day. It really showed too. I ma sure the electrician was capable of a good job, but the way he was forced to work did not allow that. My friend had to get someone in to tidy things up as his better half was not happy. I imagine there are plenty of house builders putting pressure on their contractors to do a fast job using the cheapest of materials. That cannot be good for a new electricians self worth, or any electricians pride in their work.

On a more positive note, my EV installer did exactly as promised and rectified the work of the EICR chap. Why did he do it for free? Pride in his own work, and so he could write a report on the job as he found it. I also know that I will recommend him to everyone that asks. He will be getting an Xmas bonus from me.

Thing is Mini don't force that guy to do anything - he chooses to take those jobs and work under less than ideal conditions.

For the most part electricians are fools who rush into any job at any price. There seems to be a fear among a significant percentage of people in this industry about turning down work and many will compromise on quality to complete a job to which unrealistic labour costs have been attached. Another great fear is giving realistic a realistic timeframe to start and complete works, with the mindset that customers will go elsewhere if you don't agree to untenable terms.

I sort of understand that latter thinking as people will not wait for an electrician, yet happily wait months for builders, plasterers, tilers etc. I'm of the mindset that honesty is the best policy on pricing, timframes and everything else. Find out a customers expectations, discuss options and give realistic responses about what is (and what isn't) feasible. A lot of customers will go with someone else, but those who accept your terms are very likely to be happy with a completed job that met expectations set before work commenced. I'd rather compete each job in the sort of manner likely to attract additional work through recommendation, than continually chase jobs which are increasingly difficult to find due to reputation for poor workmanship.

I've stated many times that most electricians are idiots where business is concerned and I see little prospect of that changing.

 

[westward10]

Unfortunately many of these installs are undertaken by large companies who are too busy cutting each others throats for small gain. People in the field suffer the consequences whereby they are given unrealistic schedules with no support if they cannot achieve the targets given, three jobs a day where in reality those jobs should be two to three days. A self employed individual or small company may be able to set realistic targets for a quality install but outside of that it is dog eat dog.

 

[baldelectrician]

The original installer has contacted me after I sent him the pic. Awesome guy. He has said he is going to come and replace the cover as he has a few of these boards in his spare parts pile. He is going to put the right breaker in and the only charge is the cost of the new breaker. I think I will owe him a few beers.

As for the EICR, I now feel I should complain but I am going to sleep on it first to get my thoughts together.

Make sure to leave the good guy a decent review online (google / yell etc) as he is a keeper

 

[Phill104]

And what are you going to do about the monkey that butchered your consumer unit?

That is all in hand. EV chap is having words with both his company and the trade body to which they belong

 

[nicebutdim]

Unfortunately many of these installs are undertaken by large companies who are too busy cutting each others throats for small gain. People in the field suffer the consequences whereby they are given unrealistic schedules with no support if they cannot achieve the targets given, three jobs a day where in reality those jobs should be two to three days. A self employed individual or small company may be able to set realistic targets for a quality install but outside of that it is dog eat dog.

It would be entirely possible to install three charge points in one day if jobs were in close proximity to one another and involved fairly straightforward cable runs, but in reality that would be one day in a thousand.

I get that people find themselves working for cutthroat companies, but would you accept such conditions or quickly find something more suitable?

 

[Phill104]

It would be entirely possible to install three charge points in one day if jobs were in close proximity to one another and involved fairly straightforward cable runs, but in reality that would be one day in a thousand.

I get that people find themselves working for cutthroat companies, but would you accept such conditions or quickly find something more suitable?

I have the crutch of being employed by a big firm, in a good role with good pay and conditions so I really am not in a good place to comment. If I was self employed with bills to pay I am not sure how I would think. I suppose it would depend on my financial situation at the time. It would also depend on how much self confidence and belief in my own abilities. I know that at certain points in my life, self confidence has been shattered by various things in life.