Customer asking for discount - What would you do?

[SparkyChick]

Hi guys,

So on Friday I got a call from a woman desperate (as in she needs it to complete the sale by 12th April) to get a regularisation cert from LABC for her home which has been extended, without sign off on everything. I agreed to do an EICR for the purpose and made sure I included the caveat that if there was anything needed doing to achieve a satisfactory result it would be charged extra.

Within 15 minutes of starting at 8am on Sunday morning, I'd got a list of C1s relating to the consumer unit including exposed copper on meter tails at meter, loose tails in main isolator, live chocblock on top of consumer unit. Worked 8am until 7pm Sunday, 8am until 6pm yesterday and 11am until 5pm today. Finally just got some C3s after rectifying a ---- load of issues and figuring out what's connected where (issues included a 1.5mm lighting circuit connected as a spur to a ring, new front porch lighting supplied from two different circuits, unlabelled circuits in CU, no proper earth on one ring, 5 sockets supplied as a spur in two locations).

I damaged a cable and spent some time (and lifted floorboards and carpet) trying to find a suitable place to join it. So my bill stands at £720 (does that seem reasonable?) plus materials for 3 hard days of head scratching and graft, including lots of tests to rule out weirdness like cross connected rings.

She's just had the cheek to ask for a discount so she can have someone properly re-lay the carpet which of course was down to my mistake causing damage to the cable and the fact and I quote "you spent quite a bit of time thinking". Errr... hello... WTF do you think we do???? Communicate telepathically with the building fabric and ask it nicely... excuse me Mr. RSJ, would you mind telling me where that cable goes please, and if you could enquire what the installation method is I'd greatly appreciate it. Feels like basically it's being suggested I dragged it out deliberately... she's got to be frigging mad... I enjoyed spending my time sat next to a ---- stained toilet bowl with cat litter trays in the next room stinking ot my nostrils I thought, what the hell, this is a nice change of scenery I'll stay a while longer. Coupled with the fact she's a hoarder, is packing to move and the place is an absolute ---- tip crammed with far too much stuff and what can I say... if I could have done it quicker I would have.

Bloody cheek! ---- install, loads issues and not a hope in hell of it ever passing without spending big bucks, 3 days of hard graft (and I still have to write up the notes/observations) and she wants a frigging discount!

What would you do?

For starters, I'm going to provide a far more detailed labour breakdown illustrating what she could have been charged if I was billing by the hour.

Rant over, just needed to get that off my chest to you guys who will appreciate where I'm coming from.

 

[westward10]

I personally would have done the EICR and quoted separate for remedial works it is not your problem she is desperate. If you have resolved the urgent issues then £750 seems nothing if it sells her property. If she is wanting a discount hold back on the Report.

 

[bigspark17]

Why didnt you just do an eicr and then get paid for that while leaving a price to do all c1-c2.. did the customer want c3s doing if shes selling id presume not.? It sounds abit on the high side to me...

 

[Marvo]

Can't really comment on your pricing but if you're convinced you're offering good value then breaking the invoice down into parts and demonstrating that whilst the bill may seem high you're hourly rate is reasonable or lower than usual may go some way.
The trick to these kinda situations is business acumen and how you deal with people, you need to convince her you're already doing her a favour because she's you all time favourite customer. If the Mrs Nice Chick approach fails couldn't you withhold certificates until she coughs up?

 

[Des 56]

I agreed to do an EICR for the purpose and made sure I included the caveat that if there was anything needed doing to achieve a satisfactory result it would be charged extra.

I believe there is the reason why things may have not turned out as you may have deserved
Keep reports and remedials as two very separate agreements

Do the Eicr and agree the price,you then could have mentioned that the report is a description only of the existing installation, anything flagged up would be priced for if she required your continued service

You could then also have indicated that if you were to carry out the remedial work a follow up inspection for her could be saved by having the original report adapted to take account of the work you carried out afterwards

Once you dangle the words satisfactory to this sort of customer beforehand you have ceded control to the other party

 

[Octopus]

Say no ....

 

[SparkyChick]

I've not done any of the C3s, just resolved all the C1s, C2s and FIs.

I started off with the intention of just doing the report, but when I saw how bad it was I told her it wouldn't pass (didn't even need to open the board) and she basically said make it pass. Issue was put one problem to bed, test and found more.

Got all the issues around the CU ironed out on Sunday (had to have Western Power out), but sorted the exposed tails at meter, lack of any bonding, exposed basic insulation on about 50% of circuits which meant extending them which was a task itself trying to get them out from behind the meter board, loose tails, live chocblock, broken earths inside the board (arcing on neutral causing some thermal damage to cables), inadequate extension of earths for shower and cooker circuit.

Started testing on Monday morning and found numerous issues when I was identifying what was supplied from where, including all the multiple socket spurs. Got all of the quirks ironed out yesterday and spent today testing.

Wouldn't mind so much if she'd given me the keys and left me to it, but it's been like being supervised. Every half hour or so, "how's it going?" and now I feel guilty for having a couple of 15 minute breaks every day... who'd have thought it eh? Grafters taking a break, forget the fact I've been running round her house like a mad woman! As for trying to convince her I've done her a favour, in my opinion it's a small price to pay for actually being able to complete the sale of her property. She blamed her ex-hubby for the state of things because he oversaw the building of the extension. Well, you've had 10 years to get it signed off, leaving it to the last week is a little lax if you ask me!

The leverage she has on the discount is the carpet and the time I spent trying to find the cable to repair it. That was my bad, caught it with pliers trying to open a bit of trunking (and yes, trunking is easy to open, but not when it's boxed in by other trunking, which is itself boxed in by yet more trunking). Next thing will be the bits of mess I've left dotted around and the piece of coving I cut out to aid running the bonding... all on their instruction!

Oh well, you live and learn. I think the advice about just do the report and then quote for the rest is possibly the best take away from this.

Thanks for the advice fella's and for listening, much appreciated

 

[Wilko]

If you have a mind to just move on , perhaps offer a couple of hours discount for immediate payment ?

 

[D00DY_T00DY]

£720?! So I'll be able to sell my house?!
And I thought you were doing it out the goodness of your heart. How dare you!

Some customers don't seem to understand the work that goes into some jobs (made 10x harder working around stuff)

Seems like a fair price to me personally, the work that's gone into making it how do you say? Not a f*£king death trap? Lol

 

[SparkyChick]

You know what, the damaged cable and the time spent trying to find that in the floor void, I can give her that because that was my mistake. But what really pi$$ed me off when I spoke to her last night was the implication that I'd dragged it out, by how dare I???? THINKING!!!

I'm sure we've all done it, going round and round on a real head scratcher and there comes a point when you just need to stop, take a step back... have a coffee, a smoke, write an email, get some air, do anything but what you're working on for 10 minutes.

Anyway, today is a different day, finish off the report and move on, lesson learned in terms of how to handle this kind of thing from a business perspective.

Thanks guys

 

[Pete999]

Hi guys,

So on Friday I got a call from a woman desperate (as in she needs it to complete the sale by 12th April) to get a regularisation cert from LABC for her home which has been extended, without sign off on everything. I agreed to do an EICR for the purpose and made sure I included the caveat that if there was anything needed doing to achieve a satisfactory result it would be charged extra.

Within 15 minutes of starting at 8am on Sunday morning, I'd got a list of C1s relating to the consumer unit including exposed copper on meter tails at meter, loose tails in main isolator, live chocblock on top of consumer unit. Worked 8am until 7pm Sunday, 8am until 6pm yesterday and 11am until 5pm today. Finally just got some C3s after rectifying a **** load of issues and figuring out what's connected where (issues included a 1.5mm lighting circuit connected as a spur to a ring, new front porch lighting supplied from two different circuits, unlabelled circuits in CU, no proper earth on one ring, 5 sockets supplied as a spur in two locations).

I damaged a cable and spent some time (and lifted floorboards and carpet) trying to find a suitable place to join it. So my bill stands at £720 (does that seem reasonable?) plus materials for 3 hard days of head scratching and graft, including lots of tests to rule out weirdness like cross connected rings.

She's just had the cheek to ask for a discount so she can have someone properly re-lay the carpet which of course was down to my mistake causing damage to the cable and the fact and I quote "you spent quite a bit of time thinking". Errr... hello... WTF do you think we do???? Communicate telepathically with the building fabric and ask it nicely... excuse me Mr. RSJ, would you mind telling me where that cable goes please, and if you could enquire what the installation method is I'd greatly appreciate it. Feels like basically it's being suggested I dragged it out deliberately... she's got to be frigging mad... I enjoyed spending my time sat next to a **** stained toilet bowl with cat litter trays in the next room stinking ot my nostrils I thought, what the hell, this is a nice change of scenery I'll stay a while longer. Coupled with the fact she's a hoarder, is packing to move and the place is an absolute **** tip crammed with far too much stuff and what can I say... if I could have done it quicker I would have.

Bloody cheek! **** install, loads issues and not a hope in hell of it ever passing without spending big bucks, 3 days of hard graft (and I still have to write up the notes/observations) and she wants a frigging discount!

What would you do?

For starters, I'm going to provide a far more detailed labour breakdown illustrating what she could have been charged if I was billing by the hour.

Rant over, just needed to get that off my chest to you guys who will appreciate where I'm coming from.

If I have my sums right that about £26/hour which includes fuel to get there and any material used, say roughly 3 days work, not a bad price at all in my opinion, apart from the cable you fortunately damaged, and that happens to the best of us, an occupational hazard, and she wants to ask for a discount for relaying the carpet, she is a hoarder so in my experience not that tidy, I think £720 is a fair pric, when you hear of some sparkies charging £700 for a CU swap.

 

[SparkyChick]

Materials aren't in that total and to be fair, the materials bill isn't that big. Lots of small stuff, probably the most expensive single item will be the 8m of 10mm earth cable for bonding the water.

 

[Pete999]

Materials aren't in that total and to be fair, the materials bill isn't that big. Lots of small stuff, probably the most expensive single item will be the 8m of 10mm earth cable for bonding the water.

OK but you still have to replace what you have used, albeit a small cost, that's still not a bad price, people see you haven't supplied much so they think you are expensive not considering the training, knowledge, at least you have the satisfaction of knowing you have done a good job for a fair price, that's my 4 pennyworth.

 

[Octopus]

Did you give the customer ANY indication of the cost of the "extras" before you started fixing things? or an update at the end of each day?

In such situations I've already given the customer a price for the EICR and at the end of the first day I would indicate a rough "extras" price and at the end of day 2 I would do the same.... this approach tends to avoid confrontation when the invoice is submitted!

 

[SparkyChick]

We agreed at the start for a day of my time. When the first round of issues were found, I gave her a rough idea of cost and the fact it would need an additional day to actually do the testing.

Then on Monday, when more issues were found she got another update. My only failing there was not conveying that in writing.

 

[Pete999]

We agreed at the start for a day of my time. When the first round of issues were found, I gave her a rough idea of cost and the fact it would need an additional day to actually do the testing.

Then on Monday, when more issues were found she got another update. My only failing there was not conveying that in writing.

A mistake many people make, we are far to trusting, a lesson learned maybe?

 

[westward10]

We always submit a costings list for carrying out repairs generally accessory replacement and they have a choice whether to sign up for it or not, they can even put a ceiling limit to it. Sounds like you may have started off doing things you thought wouldn't be a big deal but then it escalated. I personally wouldn't give a discount because I think your price is reasonable but if you want to put this to bed you may want to knock off £50, put it down to experience and forget it we have all been there.

 

[David M]

OK but you still have to replace what you have used, albeit a small cost, that's still not a bad price, people see you haven't supplied much so they think you are expensive not considering the training, knowledge, at least you have the satisfaction of knowing you have done a good job for a fair price, that's my 4 pennyworth.

That's the problem, "the electrics work so don't need fixing" attitude is ripe. People don't appreciate what they cannot see. Electricians get a raw deal in this respect because all the hard work is usually (domestic installs) hidden. You do a re-wire and all the customers see are a few new switches, sockets, light fittings and a new fuse board for their £2.5K + bill.
Sparky Chick,
you may have to suck it up and offer her a discount on this occasion. But what you can take from this experience is, how important it is to provide the customer with a detailed description of exactly what the are paying for prior to any work commencing. I also update and advise the customer as I'm doing the job of any remedial work that might be found to need doing along with a cost for such. This way there are no surprises for either party concerned when it comes to final payment.

 

[SparkyChick]

The only real leverage she has is that cable damage and the fact we lifted a carpet to find the cable exit from the trunk it was in, I think I'm going to get me a decent carpet kicker and then simply do it myself next time, wouldn't be so bad but I offered to put the floor back down and sort the carpet... "Oh no, you crack on, I'll sort that"

I've written her a letter, explaining I've already saved her £365 by electing to bill her using my day rate. I'm going to swallow the cost this time on the condition she pays promptly, if she don't it's full price.

Suffice to say, I won't be doing it again like this, next time it will be EICR only. Ordinarily that's what I do, but because of the tight timescales, thought she'd be grateful and she agreed. Doubly irritating as I worked way beyond the normal 8 hours that my day rate covers and the implication that despite this being a field where knowledge and thinking is required, your clearly not allowed to think on site because you're not doing anything!

Customers.... who needs em!!!

Lesson learned and thanks for the business insight guys, much appreciated (just wish I could dish out a few likes)

 

[westward10]

Yeh I could do with some "likes" cos I have low esteem and it is only the occasional "like" keeping my head above water
Your situation must be frustrating especially as you sorted her problems for the house sale but try and move on from it.

 

[egg67]

Go to a local carpet shop not the big ones but the high street type, ask if a fitter is about, most carpet fitters are self employed and will refit a small carpet for £20-£30 cash, do it all the time now as some customers think I might be good at what I do but my carpet fitting is not the same as before I took it up,as in a trade matches a job, the price you have changed is not over the top just reminded her that you did not charge her for the time spent on the brockon cable, and for time spent drinking tea and the the smoke brake

 

[rolyberkin]

Before I lift carpets I always tell the client I need to lift the carpet, give them the option of getting someone in to lift it for them and refit or sign an indemnity as it is liable to be damaged. I always take numerous photos prior to doing any work as well and let the customer see I am doing it, that way when they claim that their 10 year old shagged threadbare carpet had just been laid we have photo evidence it wasn't. I do the same when working in bathrooms for showers etc so when they say you have damaged the bath etc........
She is probably just trying it on, I would tell her I have already discounted it by charging a day rate as opposed to hours worked etc etc, as she doesn't get the eicr until she has paid you and she is not really in a position of strength (oh and head scratching in front of client is not a good idea!

 

[David M]

Yeh I could do with some "likes" cos I have low esteem and it is only the occasional "like" keeping my head above water
Your situation must be frustrating especially as you sorted her problems for the house sale but try and move on from it.

Here's a like for you, "I Like this post^^^^^^^"

 

[telectrix]

Here's a like for you, "I Like this post^^^^^^^"

i like your "like" post.

 

[Des 56]

Yeh I could do with some "likes" cos I have low esteem and it is only the occasional "like" keeping my head above water
Your situation must be frustrating especially as you sorted her problems for the house sale but try and move on from it.

Like
There you have it,maybe you can breath at little easier for a while

 

[egg67]

I do like the fact we are liking the likes and everyone is in a like mood, it's like so nice to like and not be a non liking person, would like to give you all a big thanks for all the likes you are giving each other it's like we are all in the same like world it makes me so happy I just want to like you all, but I can't as like to thanks it has gone and now all we can do is report so Ian going to report that I like you all and thank some of you ( sorry beer day with old work colleagues )

 

[westward10]

Like
There you have it,maybe you can breath at little easier for a while

Cheers Des and the rest I am smiling again

 

[D00DY_T00DY]

Cheers Des and the rest I am smiling again

I can't like nooo still a problem with the mobile site? Or did I miss the memo?

 

[davesparks]

£720 doesn't even cover working 11 hours on a Sunday!
If a customer asks you to work on a Sunday when it's outside of normal working hours for the sector you are in then it should be at least double time.

I do a lot of work in theatre where Sundays are just another normal working day and yet it is still standard practice to get double time for it.

 

[NDG Elecs]

Not been on here in a little while.. good to see familiar (and non familiar!) names still hanging about. Hope all are well..

In a word I would say no....hell no...not in a million years!! Had a customer recently who was buying a house and his mortgage provider wanted the electrics up to scratch before they would approve the mortgage. He was constantly emailing asking for a copy of this and that, and I was constantly prompt polite and helpful so he could get this house. He asked for a discount on the board change. As it was an easy one I said yeah you can have 10% off. After giving him his compliance cert a couple of weeks later I asked him if he could leave a review of my work. Sent the tawt a link and it would have took him less than five minutes to do. Still no review (positive or otherwise!) from him.. so basically, remember you are a business and don't be soft with them. Customers can be like children, given half a chance they will take advantage of you as much as they possibly can.

You have the right approach in stating that you have charged day rates rather than hourly ones. In the customers tiny little minds this can help them to comprehend things from your perspective. And I would make note of the fact that you worked longer than normal hrs too. In reference to keeping the I&T separate from remedials; yes it's definitely good practise, but occasionally time counts against us. In the OPs situ I think that saying I will send a quote for remedials wasn't that practical. And often, as we know, fault finding is a case of 'how long is a piece of string'...

 

[SparkyChick]

So, as an update, I did give her a discount (only because if she get's real pi$$y about things it will cost me more to deal with). Basically I took the time off I spent trying to locate the cable I damaged and the time taken to repair it. Nothing more. The discount is conditional on prompt payment. My terms for domestic customers are 14 days, so after that point, the full amount will be due.

I wrote her a letter that went with the quote laying out a few facts about my charging scheme, indicating how much she'd already saved because I made the choice to bill her by the day rather than the hour (I included a day by day time breakdown as part of that). I also made it clear that as an employee of my company, I'm entitled to mandatory breaks in accordance with the law and that whilst we may appear to be manual workers, we are in fact knowledge workers that require in-depth knowledge of both the general rules and the installation being worked on, and in the absence of good documentation about said installation, inspection and testing requires a methodical approach that sometimes requires us to stop, take a step back and think about what it is we're working on.

It also included some useful advice about avoiding this kind of situation arising again, specifically how to investigate the people she employs in terms of scam membership and also a rough outline of notifiable work.

It has been said, we shouldn't be head scratching in front of the customers. Whilst generally I agree, particularly when asked questions, as I've said above, there are times when it is necessary to just stop and think. But to put it into perspective, on this job, I reckon I actually spent less than an hour just thinking. However, from her perspective there were times when it may have appeared I wasn't doing much... because I was sat in front of the board, marking up cables, making notes, and testing. The rest of the time, I was running round her house testing, investigating, fixing and re-testing.

Anyhow, thanks for all the advice. I've learned my lesson and from now on, it's going to be EICR and remedial work as separate items, even if the timing is tight.

 

[SparkyChick]

I meant to say....

I wrote her a letter that went with the invoice laying out a few facts.....

 

[R G]

EICR is a job on its own , then remedials should be quoted for following that and price agreed before work starts , she probably feels she has you by the short and curlys because of the mistake , only way now is to agree a price between yourselves ...

 

[Andy-1960]

I think your customer is being unreasonable, it sounds as though you have done a good thorough job. The one thing she needs though is the cert... that's your bargaining chip... use it to your advantage !

 

[baldelectrician]

I have a tracker in the van (as well as an app on the phone).
The app is really good as I can look at the app whilst in a clients house to check my arrival time- you think it is an hour and it's actually 90 mins
I have also learnt from things like this in the past- I now invoice for time on site and time for the job (if I have to get something for a particular job)
This helps show the actual cost of the works. If the client is nice I then offer a 'prompt payment discount' providing I recieve cleared funds in my bank within a certain time scale (always less than 5 days), I also take debit cards as well as I have a machine (and can take them over the phone)

If you can show a decent discount on an invoice which disappears if payment is not made quickly that galvanises the mind.
I also have an app that records calls (a message informs clients before a call is connected), this also helps prove who said what etc.

 

[Toneyz]

I would remind her that it is the electrician who done the previous work that has partly put her in this predicament that with the fact if she had had a EICR done at regular intervals (probably) like the sticker says on the C.U. and had issues dealt with. I take it the sale went through It may have cost her £720 but if she had done as above it would of cost her less also if the sale had fallen through because of it it would of cost her more. These days you have to protect your backside all the time taking photo's get things signed for and as Judge Rinder say's get it in writing.

 

[stummish]

@SparkyChick home you got your payment. Your price sounds reasonable to me for the hours you put in, but as everyone says, Joe public never see it that way.

There's a lot of good info in this thread about procedure, taking pics, putting things in writing etc. Personally I'd only rectify c1s on the day, and then only when I've informed the customer and got confirmation. If there's loads of remedials but you're rushed for time like you were, it's not your fault, so you shouldn't have to take the raw end of the deal for their lack of organisation.

A lot to learn all round really. Mistakes are to be leant from. I sound like a damn fortune cookie.

 

[SparkyChick]

Yes I did get paid... was beginning to worry but she paid within my payment terms. Best as I can tell the sale went through, her parents live up the road from me and I saw a van there several times shortly after the completion date so the cert must have been satisfactory for the council.

I've just done another EICR today and followed the report/remedials separately approach. As a consequence, the customer has asked me to quote for the remedials, but is happy for the report to be a draft which I'll then update and master once the remedials are done. That way, they get a report I get paid for the work done so far and we avoid the confusion of a layman having to explain to someone how an unsatisfactory report has been rectified by a collection of minor works certificates. Thankfully in this instance it's mostly basic lighting faults... metal fittings with no earth to the casing, missing CPC in a light switch due to someones attempt at replacing a ceiling rose with chocblocks, backbox screw thread stripped so you can't secure a face plate and then a nightmare problem of the fact the built under fridge doesn't appear to have an earth connection when it's installation manual states it should so that's going to be fun trying to get it out to investigate. Fingers crossed it won't be raining when I do the remedial work, then I might be able to safely test the outside lights, been raining all day.

 

[Risteard]

but is happy for the report to be a draft which I'll then update and master once the remedials are done.

Whilst it's less work that way, it isn't actually correct. Remedial works need to be certified so the report should be a factual statement of what was found at the time. Then certification will demonstrate that any relevant issues were satisfactorily addressed. The two documents can then be taken together as evidence of the current state of the installation.

 

[Octopus]

^^ I do similar.... Draft copy, remedial, eicr issued as satisfactory, along with relevant additional certs.

Try telling the average letting agent that an unsatisfactory report and MWC make it satisfactory.