Consumer unit in bathroom

[Cliffy88]

What’s your thoughts of a new renovated house that has the consumer unit in the bathroom. It’s situated above the bath in a cupboard. It was brought 2 weeks ago and have no certs. They want a Eicr done. Obviously the sockets has to go too.

Thanks

 

[Dustydazzler]

Which begs the question...
What came first the consumer unit or the bathroom ?

Either way it is pretty poor design to put a consumer unit in the bathroom

 

[LukeD]

SHower head can reach the socket and board . Not a chance in hell thats safe even if legal .

 

[James]

consumer unit in zone 1
I am sure it is not going to be supported by the manufacturers instructions!!

 

[mattg4321]

It's a terrible design, but is it actually in zone 1 if it's in a cupboard?

 

[mainline]

It's a terrible design, but is it actually in zone 1 if it's in a cupboard?

Regulation prohibits socket outlets within 3 metres horizontally of the boundary of zone 1. ' The fact that it's in a cupboard doesn't stop it being used within the zone.

 

[James]

It's a terrible design, but is it actually in zone 1 if it's in a cupboard?

been pondering on that.
it is in zone 1 when the room is being used as expected, I.e. cupboard opened to get shampoo out whilst stood in bath.
with the door closed, you could argue that it is outside the zone.

Where do we go from here, is it acceptable to have a shaver socket in a shower cubical? NO

what if the shower head was removed could I say its not a shower, its a draught limiting enclosure for me to shave in?

 

[loz2754]

One way to make it compliant would be construct an IPX5 enclosure around the consumer unit, accessible only by means of a tool or key.

 

[James]

That would help, however where in the regs dose it define a tool or a key as being a way of avoiding zones?

Generally speaking the zones stop at fixed partitions, walls etc. that do not move, and at the entrance door to the bathroom

 

[timhoward]

It might just about meet regs on technicalities/or differing interpretations, but just because the regs don't specifically ban something doesn't mean we can't decide something is potentially dangerous.

I'd have no qualms deciding that I didn't like the environmental influences - steam and moisture. Also, as already said, the cupboard is easily left open, or easily opened while using shower, and shower spray becomes a huge concern.

The OSG mutters about an airing cupboard in a bathroom not being in zones. But that is a complete wall and door.
A cupboard isn't listed as something that can be taken into account to limit a zone, and it says a door has to "effectively" limit the extents of the zones and I'd argue this one doesn't.
The zone clearly extends to under the cupboard and there is nothing that effectively limits the zone, so for me it's in zone 1.

 

[mainline]

It might just about meet regs on technicalities/or differing interpretations, but just because the regs don't specifically ban something doesn't mean we can't decide something is potentially dangerous.

I'd have no qualms deciding that I didn't like the environmental influences - steam and moisture. Also, as already said, the cupboard is easily left open, or easily opened while using shower, and shower spray becomes a huge concern.

The OSG mutters about an airing cupboard in a bathroom not being in zones. But that is a complete wall and door.
A cupboard isn't listed as something that can be taken into account to limit a zone, and it says a door has to "effectively" limit the extents of the zones and I'd argue this one doesn't.
The zone clearly extends to under the cupboard and there is nothing that effectively limits the zone, so for me it's in zone 1.

I agree that there is nothing in the regs to say you can't do it, it's the socket outlet that bothers me as It's likely to be used otherwise there's no point in it being there.

 

[James]

I agree that there is nothing in the regs to say you can't do it, it's the socket outlet that bothers me as It's likely to be used otherwise there's no point in it being there.

No, I disagree with the comment "there is nothing in the regs to say you can't do it"
there are a few things that it may well fall foul of.
e.g.
in zone 1
a minimum rating of IP45 is required but it is generally accepted that IP65 is to be used.

can you be sure that the cupboard/db combination meets this??

 

[mainline]

No, I disagree with the comment "there is nothing in the regs to say you can't do it"
there are a few things that it may well fall foul of.
e.g.
in zone 1
a minimum rating of IP45 is required but it is generally accepted that IP65 is to be used.

can you be sure that the cupboard/db combination meets this??

IP rating for what ? Is it in Zone 1

 

[James]

IP rating for what ? Is it in Zone 1

YES IT IS IN ZONE 1

I see a cupboard in zone 1 containing electrical equipment.
what is the ip rating of the cupboard?

 

[mainline]

YES IT IS IN ZONE 1

I see a cupboard in zone 1 containing electrical equipment.
what is the ip rating of the cupboard?

Ok how about a whirlpool bath that has a FCU /pump etc under the bath ? Is that IP rated ? no.

But it's ok because the bath has a side panel.

I'm not saying I agree with the situation, not at all.

 

[James]

What zone is the space under a bath?

 

[mainline]

What zone is the space under a bath?

Zone 1 if accessible without the use of a tool.

And outside the zones if a tool is needed.

 

[Aaron b]

Even if under the bath, it needs to be fit for purpose and the environment. So ipx2 minimum.

 

[mainline]

It also needs to be fit for purpose. So ipx2 minimum for the environment.

An FCU isn't ipx2 and that's in zone 1 ? Under the bath.



Bear in mind, I don't agree with the Cu or socket outlet, but I am trying to find a definitive regulation that says no.

Look at #6
Regulation prohibits socket outlets within 3 metres horizontally of the boundary of zone 1. ' The fact that it's in a cupboard doesn't stop it being used within the zone.

 

[Dustydazzler]

In some older houses you have the airing cupboard in the bathroom with all the immersion switches and pumps and sometimes the heating JBs all slung in there etc

 

[mainline]

In some older houses you have the airing cupboard in the bathroom with all the immersion switches and pumps and sometimes the heating JBs all slung in there etc

Being in a cupboard arguably takes it out of the zone in the same way a FCU being under a bath does, and in the same way an airing cupboard/partition door does.

 

[Aaron b]

I was asked to fit a socket under the bath for a shower pump last week, I agreed to put a RCD spur in the hall with a flex from it and wiska box under the bath. It would have been unnecessary risk to have it under there.

 

[Dustydazzler]

Being in a cupboard arguably takes it out of the zone in the same way a FCU being under a bath does, and in the same way an airing cupboard/partition door does.

The only problem I see with the cupboard door argument is say the home owner is in the bath/shower the lights trip , they lean over and reach to the consumer unit and get a 240v belt while resetting the breaker Would a the cupboad door argument hold up in court

 

[mainline]

I was asked to fit a socket under the bath for a shower pump last week, I agreed to put a RCD spur in the hall with a flex from it and wiska box under the bath. It would have been unnecessary risk to have it under there.

If it wasn't acceptable, we probably wouldn't have whirlpool baths.

 

[Aaron b]

The without a tool argument is pants too. Who would pop off the bath panel to plug in there hair toaster even if it didn't need a tool. And what if I leave my tools in the bathroom...

 

[mainline]

The only problem I see with the cupboard door argument is say the home owner is in the bath/shower the lights trip , they lean over and reach to the consumer unit and get a 240v belt while resetting the breaker Would a the cupboad door argument hold up in court

Unlikely to happen thought isn't it, probably more chance of slipping in the bath in the dark.

 

[Aaron b]

A lock on the door would solve the accessable without a tool issue and I doubt it is going to get wet. It is poor whatever way you look at it.

It could be relocated to the ceiling .

 

[davesparks]

My thoughts on the matter are that the CU and twin socket (and probably that light fitting) have no business being in a bathroom.

If I was doing the EICR I would find one or more things wrong with that which attract a C2 code.

 

[timhoward]

A lock on the door would solve the accessable without a tool issue

I'm happy to be corrected, but what "accessible without a tool issue"? Completely from memory I thought that pertained to enclosures/junction boxes and I'm not picking up the relevance to this situation.

Regarding relocating it, I'd have thought the first question is whether it's currently on an external wall. If not the room behind the wall is the obvious choice.

 

[Aaron b]

I'm happy to be corrected, but what "accessible without a tool issue"? Completely from memory I thought that pertained to enclosures/junction boxes and I'm not picking up the relevance to this situation.

Regarding relocating it, I'd have thought the first question is whether it's currently on an external wall. If not the room behind the wall is the obvious choice.

Your right the without tool thing was referring to bath panels not cupboards. I still feel limiting access could make this a C3 instead of 2.

 

[davesparks]

Your right the without tool thing was referring to bath panels not cupboards. I still feel limiting access could make this a C3 instead of 2.

Possibly, but only on one of the various issues that could attract a C2.

 

[loz2754]

That would help, however where in the regs dose it define a tool or a key as being a way of avoiding zones?

It doesn't. But an electric shower mounted in zone 1 is only correctly IP rated for the zone if the cover has not been removed. The cover of an electric shower can only be removed by use of a tool. Same principal could be applied to any item of electrical equipment, if one was desperate to make it comply.

I'm just playing devil's advocate here, there's no way I would want a consumer unit anywhere in a bathroom.

 

[Aaron b]

What’s your thoughts of a new renovated house that has the consumer unit in the bathroom. It’s situated above the bath in a cupboard. It was brought 2 weeks ago and have no certs. They want a Eicr done. Obviously the sockets has to go too.

Thanks

Who is the they that wants the eicr done?

 

[James]

Maybe something like this would be acceptable?

IP66 MCB Distribution Boards | Blakley Electrics

Heavy duty Single and Three-Phase IP66 MCB Distribution Boards for installation in extremely wet or very dusty locations.

www.blakley.co.uk

 

[Lister1987]

Rather than trying to code against 7671, why not just go for that jugular; EAWR Regulation 5 and 6 (Strength & Capability and Adverse or Hazardous Environments) as these apply while you are AT WORK undertaking the EICR. If we must put a reg against it then I offer up 132.5.1; Electrical Installation must be suitable for the environment for which it is located and expected to operate in

 

[Rockingit]

I’m away and don’t have the book with me however from memory I think 701 discusses walls and partitions, not cupboards. What this mostly boils down to is suitability for the environment, which is a clear fail. However I’m also caused to question if it’s going to satisfy the requirements for all wiring to be RCD protected - I’d have thought the incomer is highly unlikely??

 

[Gavona]

Non sparky comment :
Irrespective of regs, I would have expected a survey to have alerted me to the issue and consequently would have purchased only if I could afford to get it moved.
I would immediately secure the doors and put a warning notice on them. Despite this I would worry about condensation.
Would an IP?? Enclosure prevent high levels of humidity around the electronics of rods/rcbos etc.? Or do they run warm enough even at zero load that I should not be concerned?
Personally, my sparky would have to work hard to convince me NOT to move it. An elcr would presumably help sparky to determine how problematic a move is likely to be .

 

[westward10]

701.32.1 ........................doors, floors and fixed partitions may be taken into account where these  EFECTIVELY limit the extent of locations containing a bath or shower as well as their zones.

 

[mainline]

I’m away and don’t have the book with me however from memory I think 701 discusses walls and partitions, not cupboards. What this mostly boils down to is suitability for the environment, which is a clear fail. However I’m also caused to question if it’s going to satisfy the requirements for all wiring to be RCD protected - I’d have thought the incomer is highly unlikely??

An outlet socket on a landing directly outside a bathroom door less than an MTR away would be compliant as it's behind a door.

An airing cupboard with electrical heating etc in a bathroom behind a door is compliant.

Electrical equipment under a bath is also compliant.

An electric shower which has just a plastic cover and also has uninsulated connections inside is also compliant.

Because is behind a barrier, it's technically not in a zone.

If not in a zone, then IP rating etc shouldn't be an issue. ?

 

[westward10]

An outlet socket on a landing directly outside a bathroom door less than an MTR away would be compliant as it's behind a door.

An airing cupboard with electrical heating etc in a bathroom behind a door is compliant.

Electrical equipment under a bath is also compliant.

An electric shower which has just a plastic cover and also has uninsulated connections inside is also compliant.

Because is behind a barrier, it's technically not in a zone.

If not in a zone, then IP rating etc shouldn't be an issue. ?

See #38. Is said cupboard providing an  EFFECTIVE barrier.

 

[mainline]

See #38. Is said cupboard providing an  EFFECTIVE barrier.

Posted while I was writing

 

[timhoward]

701.32.1 ........................doors, floors and fixed partitions may be taken into account where these  EFECTIVELY limit the extent of locations containing a bath or shower as well as their zones.

See #38. Is said cupboard providing an  EFFECTIVE barrier.

And see #10 ;-)

A cupboard isn't listed as something that can be taken into account to limit a zone, and it says a door has to "effectively" limit the extents of the zones and I'd argue this one doesn't.

 

[LukeD]

It doesn't. But an electric shower mounted in zone 1 is only correctly IP rated for the zone if the cover has not been removed. The cover of an electric shower can only be removed by use of a tool. Same principal could be applied to any item of electrical equipment, if one was desperate to make it comply.

I'm just playing devil's advocate here, there's no way I would want a consumer unit anywhere in a bathroom.

THis...Rules and regs dont make a lot of sense at times . For me this install is a Joke and a mockery of what is safe etc . That telephone shower hose can easily reach and spray water directly onto the cupboard .lets see if anyone happy with the regs would let their child take a shower in this bathroom !

 

[nicebutdim]

.

I think most would agree that the situation is far from ideal and I doubt many, if any would commission such an installation.

The problem isn't whether or not anyone likes the situation presented, but what problem it actually presents from a regulatory perspective.

Personally, I'd insist on the removal of that double socket as a precondition of working on the installation, but could only recommend its removal if carrying out an eicr.

Edit: meant to quote the previous post from @LukeD and not even going you attempt editing on a mobile.

 

[davesparks]

Maybe something like this would be acceptable?

IP66 MCB Distribution Boards | Blakley Electrics

Heavy duty Single and Three-Phase IP66 MCB Distribution Boards for installation in extremely wet or very dusty locations.

www.blakley.co.uk

It would improve the situation but there would still be inadequate access to the CU.
Having to stand in a bath is not an adequate access arrangement.

 

[Aaron b]

The cheapest solution is to box it in the cupboard, it's then out of zones and out of reach. It would just be a C3 for access but a bit of a bodge. The ideal and recommended solution is to relocate it.

 

[pirate]

Very interesting thread and many of the comments are extremely pertinent, however I am just astonished that anyone would install that CU in that location. No matter what technical justification might be relevant, it's just a bad installation idea.
A few years ago I was doing some work on a new-build housing estate where all the houses had the CU installed at high level in the downstairs cloakroom. This was a mainstream builder and I am aware the same installation was carried out on other estates. Now, I accept the cloakroom had no bath or shower, but the only way to gain access to the CUs in these houses was by standing on the WC...there's no room to place a ladder or hop-up. I accept these houses passed BC regulations, but in my opinion the CU should not be mounted high up above a WC. A less-able person would find access extremely tricky and indeed hazardous, and for that reason alone it shouldn't be allowed.

 

[littlespark]

We’re all pretty adamant it shouldn’t be there, but the OP questions how it should be coded on an EICR, as it is already there.

I’m wondering originally if that room was an entrance hall…. Ergo, CU was there before the bath was.


Although a keyed lock could easily be fitted to the cupboard door, the suitability of the equipment is not good for the environment.


C2…. Just to make sure it gets done.

 

[timhoward]

Although a keyed lock could easily be fitted to the cupboard door, the suitability of the equipment is not good for the environment.

Agreed. While having it locked is (in some ways) an improvement, there are still issues, in particular that locking it impairs isolating power quickly or restoring power (e.g. lights) quickly.
Daft scenario: someone's alone in the house, having a bath, and the lights trip. Standing in a foot of water in a slippy bath, dripping wet, scrambling for a key to operate a breaker doesn't seem a very acceptable scenario!

I think the Reg 12 guidance in EAWR speaks for itself:
"The suitable means for cutting off the supply (regulation 12(1)(a)) should be in a suitable location regarding the nature of the risks, the availability of people to operate the means and the speed at which operation may be necessary. Access to switches etc should be kept clear and unobstructed, free of tripping and slipping hazards etc;"

The only solution I'd be happy with is putting the whole lot in an IP box or two and extending supply and final circuits to somewhere else.

 

[UNG]

The cheapest solution is to box it in the cupboard, it's then out of zones and out of reach. It would just be a C3 for access but a bit of a bodge. The ideal and recommended solution is to relocate it.

But then that brings up the accessibility of the CU and inconvienence caused to reset a tripped breaker

This is one of those situations where this thread could and probably will end up going round in circles without a solution acceptable to all
Looking at the pictures I would have to question how accessable the CU is for being working on it looks close to the ceiling and above the bath so it is impossible to put a ladder near it to safely access it, no doubt the customer would complain if you scratched the bath as well
The socket for me is a definite no no as it puts the seeds of temptation there for plugging in whatever tech someone wants to take into the bathroom while they have a bath or shower. I read somewhere recently deaths from electrocution using tech while having a bath are on the rise

Daft scenario: someone's alone in the house, having a bath, and the lights trip. Standing in a foot of water in a slippy bath, dripping wet, scrambling for a key to operate a breaker doesn't seem a very acceptable scenario!

I was thinking similar someone in the shower and another person knocks on the bathroom door asking the person in the shower to reset a tripped breaker

The only solution I'd be happy with is putting the whole lot in an IP box or two and extending supply and final circuits to somewhere else.

Or relocate the bathroom!!. Why create work for the electrician because the plumber or more likely the not so handy handyman screwed up

I think any solution where the installation remains as is with locks, IP enclosures etc is always going to be flawed the homeowner isn't going to want danger and warning stickers placed on the cupboard doors I can see it now "This cupboard door must remain locked while the bath or shower is in use".
User complacency IMO is the biggest danger here and safety can so easily compromised when whatever solution is adopted or agreed on is degraded over time and is eventually forgotten that is when someone is injured or becomes a fatality and questions are asked as to why it was done like that and why was it not rectified when the problem was highlighted