Consumer unit in bathroom

[Cliffy88]

What’s your thoughts of a new renovated house that has the consumer unit in the bathroom. It’s situated above the bath in a cupboard. It was brought 2 weeks ago and have no certs. They want a Eicr done. Obviously the sockets has to go too.

Thanks

 

[Dustydazzler]

Which begs the question...
What came first the consumer unit or the bathroom ?

Either way it is pretty poor design to put a consumer unit in the bathroom

 

[LukeD]

SHower head can reach the socket and board . Not a chance in hell thats safe even if legal .

 

[James]

consumer unit in zone 1
I am sure it is not going to be supported by the manufacturers instructions!!

 

[mattg4321]

It's a terrible design, but is it actually in zone 1 if it's in a cupboard?

 

[mainline]

It's a terrible design, but is it actually in zone 1 if it's in a cupboard?

Regulation prohibits socket outlets within 3 metres horizontally of the boundary of zone 1. ' The fact that it's in a cupboard doesn't stop it being used within the zone.

 

[James]

It's a terrible design, but is it actually in zone 1 if it's in a cupboard?

been pondering on that.
it is in zone 1 when the room is being used as expected, I.e. cupboard opened to get shampoo out whilst stood in bath.
with the door closed, you could argue that it is outside the zone.

Where do we go from here, is it acceptable to have a shaver socket in a shower cubical? NO

what if the shower head was removed could I say its not a shower, its a draught limiting enclosure for me to shave in?

 

[loz2754]

One way to make it compliant would be construct an IPX5 enclosure around the consumer unit, accessible only by means of a tool or key.

 

[James]

That would help, however where in the regs dose it define a tool or a key as being a way of avoiding zones?

Generally speaking the zones stop at fixed partitions, walls etc. that do not move, and at the entrance door to the bathroom

 

[timhoward]

It might just about meet regs on technicalities/or differing interpretations, but just because the regs don't specifically ban something doesn't mean we can't decide something is potentially dangerous.

I'd have no qualms deciding that I didn't like the environmental influences - steam and moisture. Also, as already said, the cupboard is easily left open, or easily opened while using shower, and shower spray becomes a huge concern.

The OSG mutters about an airing cupboard in a bathroom not being in zones. But that is a complete wall and door.
A cupboard isn't listed as something that can be taken into account to limit a zone, and it says a door has to "effectively" limit the extents of the zones and I'd argue this one doesn't.
The zone clearly extends to under the cupboard and there is nothing that effectively limits the zone, so for me it's in zone 1.

 

[mainline]

It might just about meet regs on technicalities/or differing interpretations, but just because the regs don't specifically ban something doesn't mean we can't decide something is potentially dangerous.

I'd have no qualms deciding that I didn't like the environmental influences - steam and moisture. Also, as already said, the cupboard is easily left open, or easily opened while using shower, and shower spray becomes a huge concern.

The OSG mutters about an airing cupboard in a bathroom not being in zones. But that is a complete wall and door.
A cupboard isn't listed as something that can be taken into account to limit a zone, and it says a door has to "effectively" limit the extents of the zones and I'd argue this one doesn't.
The zone clearly extends to under the cupboard and there is nothing that effectively limits the zone, so for me it's in zone 1.

I agree that there is nothing in the regs to say you can't do it, it's the socket outlet that bothers me as It's likely to be used otherwise there's no point in it being there.

 

[James]

I agree that there is nothing in the regs to say you can't do it, it's the socket outlet that bothers me as It's likely to be used otherwise there's no point in it being there.

No, I disagree with the comment "there is nothing in the regs to say you can't do it"
there are a few things that it may well fall foul of.
e.g.
in zone 1
a minimum rating of IP45 is required but it is generally accepted that IP65 is to be used.

can you be sure that the cupboard/db combination meets this??

 

[mainline]

No, I disagree with the comment "there is nothing in the regs to say you can't do it"
there are a few things that it may well fall foul of.
e.g.
in zone 1
a minimum rating of IP45 is required but it is generally accepted that IP65 is to be used.

can you be sure that the cupboard/db combination meets this??

IP rating for what ? Is it in Zone 1

 

[James]

IP rating for what ? Is it in Zone 1

YES IT IS IN ZONE 1

I see a cupboard in zone 1 containing electrical equipment.
what is the ip rating of the cupboard?

 

[mainline]

YES IT IS IN ZONE 1

I see a cupboard in zone 1 containing electrical equipment.
what is the ip rating of the cupboard?

Ok how about a whirlpool bath that has a FCU /pump etc under the bath ? Is that IP rated ? no.

But it's ok because the bath has a side panel.

I'm not saying I agree with the situation, not at all.

 

[James]

What zone is the space under a bath?

 

[mainline]

What zone is the space under a bath?

Zone 1 if accessible without the use of a tool.

And outside the zones if a tool is needed.

 

[Aaron b]

Even if under the bath, it needs to be fit for purpose and the environment. So ipx2 minimum.

 

[mainline]

It also needs to be fit for purpose. So ipx2 minimum for the environment.

An FCU isn't ipx2 and that's in zone 1 ? Under the bath.



Bear in mind, I don't agree with the Cu or socket outlet, but I am trying to find a definitive regulation that says no.

Look at #6
Regulation prohibits socket outlets within 3 metres horizontally of the boundary of zone 1. ' The fact that it's in a cupboard doesn't stop it being used within the zone.

 

[Dustydazzler]

In some older houses you have the airing cupboard in the bathroom with all the immersion switches and pumps and sometimes the heating JBs all slung in there etc

 

[mainline]

In some older houses you have the airing cupboard in the bathroom with all the immersion switches and pumps and sometimes the heating JBs all slung in there etc

Being in a cupboard arguably takes it out of the zone in the same way a FCU being under a bath does, and in the same way an airing cupboard/partition door does.

 

[Aaron b]

I was asked to fit a socket under the bath for a shower pump last week, I agreed to put a RCD spur in the hall with a flex from it and wiska box under the bath. It would have been unnecessary risk to have it under there.

 

[Dustydazzler]

Being in a cupboard arguably takes it out of the zone in the same way a FCU being under a bath does, and in the same way an airing cupboard/partition door does.

The only problem I see with the cupboard door argument is say the home owner is in the bath/shower the lights trip , they lean over and reach to the consumer unit and get a 240v belt while resetting the breaker Would a the cupboad door argument hold up in court

 

[mainline]

I was asked to fit a socket under the bath for a shower pump last week, I agreed to put a RCD spur in the hall with a flex from it and wiska box under the bath. It would have been unnecessary risk to have it under there.

If it wasn't acceptable, we probably wouldn't have whirlpool baths.

 

[Aaron b]

The without a tool argument is pants too. Who would pop off the bath panel to plug in there hair toaster even if it didn't need a tool. And what if I leave my tools in the bathroom...

 

[mainline]

The only problem I see with the cupboard door argument is say the home owner is in the bath/shower the lights trip , they lean over and reach to the consumer unit and get a 240v belt while resetting the breaker Would a the cupboad door argument hold up in court

Unlikely to happen thought isn't it, probably more chance of slipping in the bath in the dark.

 

[Aaron b]

A lock on the door would solve the accessable without a tool issue and I doubt it is going to get wet. It is poor whatever way you look at it.

It could be relocated to the ceiling .

 

[davesparks]

My thoughts on the matter are that the CU and twin socket (and probably that light fitting) have no business being in a bathroom.

If I was doing the EICR I would find one or more things wrong with that which attract a C2 code.

 

[timhoward]

A lock on the door would solve the accessable without a tool issue

I'm happy to be corrected, but what "accessible without a tool issue"? Completely from memory I thought that pertained to enclosures/junction boxes and I'm not picking up the relevance to this situation.

Regarding relocating it, I'd have thought the first question is whether it's currently on an external wall. If not the room behind the wall is the obvious choice.

 

[Aaron b]

I'm happy to be corrected, but what "accessible without a tool issue"? Completely from memory I thought that pertained to enclosures/junction boxes and I'm not picking up the relevance to this situation.

Regarding relocating it, I'd have thought the first question is whether it's currently on an external wall. If not the room behind the wall is the obvious choice.

Your right the without tool thing was referring to bath panels not cupboards. I still feel limiting access could make this a C3 instead of 2.

 

[davesparks]

Your right the without tool thing was referring to bath panels not cupboards. I still feel limiting access could make this a C3 instead of 2.

Possibly, but only on one of the various issues that could attract a C2.

 

[loz2754]

That would help, however where in the regs dose it define a tool or a key as being a way of avoiding zones?

It doesn't. But an electric shower mounted in zone 1 is only correctly IP rated for the zone if the cover has not been removed. The cover of an electric shower can only be removed by use of a tool. Same principal could be applied to any item of electrical equipment, if one was desperate to make it comply.

I'm just playing devil's advocate here, there's no way I would want a consumer unit anywhere in a bathroom.

 

[Aaron b]

What’s your thoughts of a new renovated house that has the consumer unit in the bathroom. It’s situated above the bath in a cupboard. It was brought 2 weeks ago and have no certs. They want a Eicr done. Obviously the sockets has to go too.

Thanks

Who is the they that wants the eicr done?

 

[James]

Maybe something like this would be acceptable?

IP66 MCB Distribution Boards | Blakley Electrics

Heavy duty Single and Three-Phase IP66 MCB Distribution Boards for installation in extremely wet or very dusty locations.

www.blakley.co.uk

 

[Lister1987]

Rather than trying to code against 7671, why not just go for that jugular; EAWR Regulation 5 and 6 (Strength & Capability and Adverse or Hazardous Environments) as these apply while you are AT WORK undertaking the EICR. If we must put a reg against it then I offer up 132.5.1; Electrical Installation must be suitable for the environment for which it is located and expected to operate in

 

[Rockingit]

I’m away and don’t have the book with me however from memory I think 701 discusses walls and partitions, not cupboards. What this mostly boils down to is suitability for the environment, which is a clear fail. However I’m also caused to question if it’s going to satisfy the requirements for all wiring to be RCD protected - I’d have thought the incomer is highly unlikely??

 

[Gavona]

Non sparky comment :
Irrespective of regs, I would have expected a survey to have alerted me to the issue and consequently would have purchased only if I could afford to get it moved.
I would immediately secure the doors and put a warning notice on them. Despite this I would worry about condensation.
Would an IP?? Enclosure prevent high levels of humidity around the electronics of rods/rcbos etc.? Or do they run warm enough even at zero load that I should not be concerned?
Personally, my sparky would have to work hard to convince me NOT to move it. An elcr would presumably help sparky to determine how problematic a move is likely to be .

 

[westward10]

701.32.1 ........................doors, floors and fixed partitions may be taken into account where these  EFECTIVELY limit the extent of locations containing a bath or shower as well as their zones.

 

[mainline]

I’m away and don’t have the book with me however from memory I think 701 discusses walls and partitions, not cupboards. What this mostly boils down to is suitability for the environment, which is a clear fail. However I’m also caused to question if it’s going to satisfy the requirements for all wiring to be RCD protected - I’d have thought the incomer is highly unlikely??

An outlet socket on a landing directly outside a bathroom door less than an MTR away would be compliant as it's behind a door.

An airing cupboard with electrical heating etc in a bathroom behind a door is compliant.

Electrical equipment under a bath is also compliant.

An electric shower which has just a plastic cover and also has uninsulated connections inside is also compliant.

Because is behind a barrier, it's technically not in a zone.

If not in a zone, then IP rating etc shouldn't be an issue. ?

 

[westward10]

An outlet socket on a landing directly outside a bathroom door less than an MTR away would be compliant as it's behind a door.

An airing cupboard with electrical heating etc in a bathroom behind a door is compliant.

Electrical equipment under a bath is also compliant.

An electric shower which has just a plastic cover and also has uninsulated connections inside is also compliant.

Because is behind a barrier, it's technically not in a zone.

If not in a zone, then IP rating etc shouldn't be an issue. ?

See #38. Is said cupboard providing an  EFFECTIVE barrier.