Caravan site wiring

[nickjohn]

Sorry about asking this question as I think similar posts have been made before but I could not find one along the same lines as this.

A friend of mine has a residential static caravan site (as in the caravans on the site are lived in 24/7 52 weeks a year by the same people).
The configuration of the site wiring is there is a central building incorporating the incoming mains which splits into individual meters for each van, this goes to a 60a sw fuse then into a 60A 30ma RCD then a swa sub main (with the old vans the swa went into the van and connected into a CU incorporating another 60A 30ma rcd and breakers) with the new vans the sparks has installed an external housing adjacent to the van which has a cu with a 60A 30ma rcd and 16A breaker, this then connects to an external 16A socket with a flex into the vans CU - the new vans cu has a 30ma RCD.

He says the vans must have a means of disconnection of the supply adjacent to them as they are mobile homes... some have to be lifted in with a crane so they are not mobile in the true sense of the word.. he also says the vans are limited to what they can use electrically wise as they are mobile homes hence the 16A breaker.

Now the problem is that as the vans are permanent residences they have washers / dryers / toaster / TV's / kettles etc etc which puts more load on them than say a holiday home.

My friend does not understand why we cannot just connect the swa direct into the van as they were before as the swa has an rcd at source which should give the protection necessary, also the small 16A breaker is already causing problems with the resident as it overloads all the time.

Can anyone shed any light on what is the correct connection configuration.

 

[Badged01]

Caravan sites and Caravans are all covered in BS7671 under special locations so have a read of that first. From my limited knowledge of caravan site design I believe mobile homes are classified under the regs the same as caravans so ….

….. the sparks has installed an external housing adjacent to the van …

Correct …… This has to be done to meet current regs, you cant run it straight into the mobile home.

the vans are limited to what they can use electrically wise as they are mobile homes hence the 16A breaker.

Wrong ……The caravans are not limited to 16A, they just have to be connected by a ‘Commando’ socket -- which can supply upto 125A!.

Its definately the standard practise for touring sites to only use 16A, which frustrates me with my campervan because as you have said it limits what appliances you can have running! But for a fixed site I cant see a problem with more than 16A .....

 

[D Skelton]

I'd also be binning the two of the three RCDs wired in series to each caravan! The one at the mains intake and the one at the DB adjacent to the caravan! If a TT system then a type-s could be needed at the mains intake position.

Depending on the max demand at each caravan I'd be looking to feed the SWA into a two way IP rated enclosure directly adjacent to the unit with a 100A main switch and a 32/40A type b feeding a 63A commando socket.

 

[spark 68]

I'd also be binning the two of the three RCDs wired in series to each caravan!

You need to keep at least two of them, as the regs require a 30mA RCD at the connection post 708.553.1.13, and another 30mA device in the van 721.411.1 , even though they won't discriminate.

edit: If the supply to the individual pitches is also TT then a 100mA TD RCD or greater may also be required at the source supply to discriminate with the pitches.

Another poster is also correct in that 16A is the minimum supply allowed, and may be greater if required.

 

[Badged01]

I'd also be binning the two of the three RCDs wired in series to each caravan!

Above poster beat me to it but its a strange setup on caravan wiring with the regs. I havent looked too deeply into the actuals but as explained to me by a "knowledgeable" caravan site electrician over a beer or 10. Because the site has basically got to be a TT system you end up with an RCD at the mains intake to protect cables to the pitches, and RCD at the caravan pitch socket (cos regs say it) and an RCD on the caravan consumer unit (cos regs say it).

So yes 3 RCD's in series ...... I never got to discussing discrimination til after about the 8th beer so cant remember the solution to that!

 

[spark 68]

Hi badged,

The actual supply to the pitch post (cabling wise) can also be a TN system, only you have to seperate the earthing in the case of PME/TNC-S this can be done at the pitch pillar (making it a TT at this end), it does not necessarily have to be done at the supply side , no such problem with TN-S though.

 

[D Skelton]

You need to keep at least two of them, as the regs require a 30mA RCD at the connection post 708.553.1.13, and another 30mA device in the van 721.411.1 , even though they won't discriminate.

721.411.1 will be met by the adherance to 708.553.1.13.

edit: If the supply to the individual pitches is also TT then a 100mA TD RCD or greater may also be required at the source supply to discriminate with the pitches.

This is what I said

as explained to me by a "knowledgeable" caravan site electrician over a beer or 10. Because the site has basically got to be a TT system you end up with an RCD at the mains intake to protect cables to the pitches, and RCD at the caravan pitch socket (cos regs say it) and an RCD on the caravan consumer unit (cos regs say it).

So yes 3 RCD's in series ......

He isn't as knowledgable as you think he is




I stand by what I say, bin the RCD at the mains intake (unless TT in which case a type-s may or may not be needed), RCD at the 2 way IP rated DB adjacent to the caravan and bin the other RCD inside. There is absolutely no advantage to having three RCDs in line on one circuit, if anything, it makes the circuit even more prone to fault. Regardless of hearsay, correct discrimination between RCDs has to be achieved, and the only way to do this is to only have one of them, or, have two with one of them being a type-s.

 

[spark 68]

RCD at the 2 way IP rated DB adjacent to the caravan and bin the other RCD inside

.

This you cannot do, they both fall under different reg sections, the van also has to have a 30mA device inside where ADS is used.

I take it this to ensure you will always have RCD protection, also they are classed as two different installations, the Van ends at the flex,the pitch ends at the post.

Just one of those anomalies.

 

[D Skelton]

.

This you cannot do, they both fall under different reg sections, the van also has to have a 30mA device inside where ADS is used.

I take it this to ensure you will always have RCD protection, also they are classed as two different installations, the Van ends at the flex,the pitch ends at the post.

Just one of those anomalies.

Of course you can, it doesn't matter about the reg sections. 721.411.1 says where ADS is used an RCD shall be provided. Where exactly does it specify where it shall be provided?

They are not classed as two seperate installations, just two seperate sets of regulations covering different types of installation. Does section 701 comprise of a seperate installation in relation to the regs covering the wider scope of the installation throughout the rest of the property? Of course not. Have you ever seen people wiring RCDs in series to protect a bathroom lighting circuit???

 

[spark 68]

It is because the van is classed as mobile, and may be used from a another supply (not necessarily a caravan pitch), the van is covered by section 721, and as such is classed as an installation and wiring system in it's own right.

The same apples to marinas and boats, have a look at GN7, and figure 721 (particularly item 5 in fig. 721) in the BGB.

 

[D Skelton]

It is because the van is classed as mobile, and may be used from a another supply (not necessarily a caravan pitch), the van is covered by section 721, and as such is classed as an installation and wiring system in it's own right.

The same apples to marinas and boats, have a look at GN7, and figure 721 (particularly item 5 in fig. 721) in the BGB.

Potentially so, that's why as professionals and ultimately designers, we have to make judgement calls based on our years of experience, expertise and fundamental understanding of both electrical theory and regulation. In a static caravan, which some may even argue is a fixed installation in it's own right (the word 'static' being a dead giveaway), I wouldn't look at fitting an RCD if the supply to it had been wired correctly, similarly, I'd have no hesitation in ripping an existing one out if the supply was wired correctly and just replacing with a main switch. In a truly mobile caravan I wouldn't entertain not fitting an RCD.

In the latter scenario the risk of being connected to something that isn't RCD protected is far greater that the risk of nuisance tripping occuring. In the former, static caravans tend to stay static, but upon being moved how hard is it really to replace a main switch with an RCD if the supply to the caravan isn't wired correctly, which in itself is highly doubtful as if it wasn't the caravan park simply wouldn't be allowed to operate.

 

[spark 68]

Oh I agree with you, it does seem pointless having two 30mA RCDs in series, but unfortunately they are tested and certified completely separately against different sections.

 

[D Skelton]

Oh I agree with you, it does seem pointless having two 30mA RCDs in series, but unfortunately they are tested and certified completely separately against different sections.

No they're not, they are being tested and certified to be in compliance with BS 7671 as a whole. If you are looking at a static caravan with no RCD in it but one at the supply to it directly outside, in answer to the question on whether or not the installation complies with section 721.411 then the only answer available is yes! 'Is an RCD complying with 415.1.1 provided?' Yes! Who cares where it is provided

 

[spark 68]

When a caravan (static or otherwise) is supplied/sold, it is tested and certified against section 721, the pitch is likewise certified against section 708, you then end up with a degree of overlap we are discussing.

Let me ask you a question, if someone brought to you (or your premises) a static caravan for you to provide an EICR for, would you pass it off with no RCD (no code) ?, bearing in mind you have no idea where it was to be used.

 

[D Skelton]

When a caravan (static or otherwise) is supplied/sold, it is tested and certified against section 721, the pitch is likewise certified against section 708, you then end up with a degree of overlap we are discussing.

Let me ask you a question, if someone brought to you (or your premises) a static caravan for you to provide an EICR for, would you pass it off with no RCD (no code) ?, bearing in mind you have no idea where it was to be used.

Ok, I see what you're getting at now. Yes, on their own merit, whether that is out of the factory or in transit or on the sales yard a static caravan would need an RCD within to comply with section 721. Upon being delivered to site and installed in it's permanent location however, nothing stopping you ripping the bugger out!

 

[GLENNSPARK]

I'd also be binning the two of the three RCDs wired in series to each caravan! The one at the mains intake and the one at the DB adjacent to the caravan! If a TT system then a type-s could be needed at the mains intake position.

Depending on the max demand at each caravan I'd be looking to feed the SWA into a two way IP rated enclosure directly adjacent to the unit with a 100A main switch and a 32/40A type b feeding a 63A commando socket.

so then why the 100A imcomer?

80 A will cut it Damian....it may be cheaper...or the same price for either...

 

[GLENNSPARK]

When a caravan (static or otherwise) is supplied/sold, it is tested and certified against section 721, the pitch is likewise certified against section 708, you then end up with a degree of overlap we are discussing.

Let me ask you a question, if someone brought to you (or your premises) a static caravan for you to provide an EICR for, would you pass it off with no RCD (no code) ?, bearing in mind you have no idea where it was to be used.

well....for a start if there was no RCD installed at time of manufacture/sale....then no fault protection would have been provided....

 

[nickjohn]

Thanks very much for the feedback, I think my friend needs to look at the whole site and how to handle future van upgrades and how they are wired etc.

Just another question whilst I was trawling the net looking for info there seemed to be a grey area as to when a caravan stops being a caravan, I noticed on a general caravan forum that if you have a static "home" and make it so that it cannot be simply moved (e.g build a porch on the side, build up the underside of the van so that it is fully enclosed, remove the wheels) then it stops being mobile and comes under different planning regs, would this in turn imply that the wiring regs would differ as well or would it still be seen as a mobile home..

 

[D Skelton]

so then why the 100A imcomer?

80 A will cut it Damian....it may be cheaper...or the same price for either...

I think I mistakenly said 100 main switch for outside unit and RCD as main switch for inside unit, should'a been the other way round. 63/80A 30mA RCD for outside IP enclosure feeding 63A commando socket. Replace RCD in the caravan unit with a 100A main switch. 100A is the bog standard type, that's the only reason.

 

[D Skelton]

Thanks very much for the feedback, I think my friend needs to look at the whole site and how to handle future van upgrades and how they are wired etc.

Just another question whilst I was trawling the net looking for info there seemed to be a grey area as to when a caravan stops being a caravan, I noticed on a general caravan forum that if you have a static "home" and make it so that it cannot be simply moved (e.g build a porch on the side, build up the underside of the van so that it is fully enclosed, remove the wheels) then it stops being mobile and comes under different planning regs, would this in turn imply that the wiring regs would differ as well or would it still be seen as a mobile home..

It is just as you said, a grey area. I don't think any of us on here are adequately trained on the ins and outs of exactly when a caravan stops being a caravan.

 

[richy3333]

Just to throw something else into the mix ESQCR needs to be considered and the issue of permanence (already touched on). To answer the OP last question. Around here, we have plenty of 'static' vans that people live in permanently. Some whilst building houses and some forever. Some have porches built on to them. Our DNO do not consider statics permanent regardless of how long people live in them and so have to be treated as 'caravans'. No earth is given and all have to be TT'd. Some of the local caravan sites have statics and these have to be TT'd also. The same applies to the C&CC site statics I've worked on - though they often have a 32A supply.

Someone mentioned the restriction of 16A on mobile hook-ups. Last summer I had a caravanner complain because their supply kept tripping out. They wanted a refund of the £2.50 per day they were paying for the electricity. The manager and I went to look, only to find they had 4 x 2KW heaters running (3 of which were in an awning), plus assorted other electrical appliances. The air turned blue with the managers comments (all understandable) and he asked the campers to leave!

 

[SirKit Breaker]

You can argue this point till the cows come home. It is well covered in the relevant part of BS7671,and that is what you will need to apply irrespective of your own ideas and opinions.

Get this wrong, and the consequences probably don't bear thinking about. You will be hung drawn and quartered if someone gets injured.

Cheers………………Howard

 

[spark 68]

Someone mentioned the restriction of 16A on mobile hook-ups.

Hi Richy,

I don't think anyone said the supply was restricted to 16A ?, just that 16A was the minimum allowed.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

the fact is:

just because it is considered a `static`...this does not mean that it cant be moved...at any time...

its just a case of getting a flatbed...and a winch to drag it on with...

so consequently the DNO are justified in considering them moveable/portable/not perminant structures....

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Hi Richy,

I don't think anyone said the supply was restricted to 16A ?, just that 16A was the minimum allowed.

more often than not its 16A thats available on caravan sites ....
this can pose a problem..

i had a cousin of mine wanting the supply `upgrading` on her caravan...

it took me several hours to explain to her i couldn`t just up the amps...

i think she sold that caravan anyway...once the novelty had worn off..

model citizens....

 

[spark 68]

Oh I know that Glenn, but you are not restricted to 16A for technical reasons, only by physical reasons and only what is available on a given site.

 

[Badged01]

Oh I know that Glenn, but you are not restricted to 16A for technical reasons, only by physical reasons and only what is available on a given site.

I reckon the sites are just tight ars*s! If they give you more than 16A you will use it with fancy electrical gadgets like kettles, toasters and heaters all on at once ...... or portable outdoor jacuzzis like I wish I had with my campervan!

 

[nickjohn]

So is the purpose of the plug / socket hook up purely for disconnection purposes should the van be moved at any time??

 

[nickjohn]

Sorry to bring this up again but if you have the 30ma protection at source of the swa could you get away with fitting a commander socket onto the swa then a plug / lead arrangement into the van (having a cu in the van with an rcd / breakers etc)???

 

[richy3333]

Sorry to bring this up again but if you have the 30ma protection at source of the swa could you get away with fitting a commander socket onto the swa then a plug / lead arrangement into the van (having a cu in the van with an rcd / breakers etc)???

Well, what do the Regs say...

 

[nickjohn]

Well, what do the Regs say...

Well Richy3333, not sure as I do not have a copy hence asking the question in the first place....I assumed the forum would be a place whereby people with suitable knowledge would be able to offer assistance and advice based on experience, guess I will just have to get the latest copy of the regs and take it from there...

 

[spark 68]

Sorry to bring this up again but if you have the 30ma protection at source of the swa could you get away with fitting a commander socket onto the swa then a plug / lead arrangement into the van (having a cu in the van with an rcd / breakers etc)???

The short answer is No.

The Pitch socket needs to comply with BS EN 6039-2, have an IP rating of at least IP44, each S/O needs it's own individual OCPD and RCD.

If you are planning on getting involved with this type of install then I would seriously suggest you also get a copy of GN7 as well as the BGB.

 

[itselectric]

So you have a garden shed which is not a permanent structure, yet you wire direct to internal fuseboard. What's the difference to a static caravan which will only be removed to be replaced with another. these are no different to a bungalow.

 

[spark 68]

A caravan has a (earthed and Bonded) metal chassis for a start, hence why PME is not allowed.

They both (van and pitch) are covered by different sections of the regs, the pitch being a commercial venture/open to the public will also be covered by EAWR amongst other things which is statutory, this is not just a shed in your back garden.

 

[happysteve]

the fact is:

just because it is considered a `static`...this does not mean that it cant be moved...at any time...

its just a case of getting a flatbed...and a winch to drag it on with...

so consequently the DNO are justified in considering them moveable/portable/not perminant structures....

I'm trying to understand these comments (which make sense) with respect to the regs.

Bear in mind my status (see sig) I am only trying to increase my knowledge, so please tell me where my reasoning is out.

721 "Electrical Installations in caravans and motor caravans"

721.1 Scope

Blah blah

"They do not apply to the electrical installations of mobile homes, residential park homes and tranportable units.

NOTE 1: For mobile homes and residential park homes the general requirements apply"

"Mobile homes" are defined in Part 2: "A transortable leisure accomodation vehicle which includes means for mobility but does not meet the requirements for construction and use of road vehicles."

So this is your "static caravan" and, whether lived in all year round or not, makes no difference to the regs, and isn't covered by 721.

Given the OP's description of the caravan site, I'd say 721 isn't relevant. Anyone beg to differ?

Then I looked at 708 "Electrical Installations in Caravan / Camping Parks and Similar Locations"

708.1 Scope

"The particular requirements of this section apply to that portion of the electrical installation in caravan / camping parks and similar locations providing facilities for supplying leisure accommodation vehicles (including caravans) or tents."

Part 2 defines leisure accommodation vehicle: "Unit of living accommodation for temporary or seasonal occupation which may meet requirements for construction and use of road vehicles."

The important word there is "may" - so if it doesn't, but is nevertheless a unit of living accommodation for temporary or seasonal occupation, it's within the remit of 708. To me, this says, "static holiday homes are covered, residential homes are not." Anyone beg to differ?

708.411.4 states that ESQCR prohibits connection of PME earthing facility to any metalwork of your... let's just call it a van... your van.

708.530.3 Caravan pitch supply equipment "... shall be located adjacent to the pitch and not more than 20m from the connection facility on the [van] when on its pitch."

BGB does not define "supply equipment" but I read this as "switchgear and control gear". So, RCDs, overcurrent protective devices etc. So this says to me, "if you're going to have an RCD/MCB, it has to be near the van." Anyone beg to differ?

Now, it's been 20 years since I lived on a caravan park (which my folks owned, up near Bradford), but in them days, statics didn't come with nice shiny ceeforms. They were wired in by a [qualified] electrician (a bloke called Ian, in our case), like a permanent installation.

708.553.1 talks about "plugs and socket-outlets" but there are some paragraphs relating to fixed connections:

708.553.1.12: "Blah... A fixed connection for supply to each [van] shall be protected individually by an overcurrent protective device, in accordance with the requirements of Chapter 43."

I take this to mean, "You need an MCB or similar, but it doesn't proscribe what value, for a fixed installation." Anyone beg to differ?

708.553.1.13: "Blah... Final circuits intended for fixed connection connection of the supply to [vans] shall be protected individually by an RCD having the characteristics specified in Regulation 415.1.1."

(415.1.1 is under additional protection, states "30mA RCD").

So taking all that into account, I read the requirements for static caravans, with a fixed supply (ie not connected by ceeform), there should be a 30mA RCD and an overcurrent protective device within 20m of the van.

Now, where the "two 30mA RCDs in series" bit comes in I don't know, as I haven't read the whole of the BGB yet (I'm working on it!). From a pragmatic point of view, if your van's CU also had a 30mA RCD fitted then yeah, there'd be no discrimination, so you wouldn't know which one would go... but if it happened to be the one in the van, you might save yourself having to go out in your dressing gown and slippers. 531.2.9 talks about discrimination and RCDs in series, "the characteristics of the devices shall be such that the intended discrimination is achieved." HOWEVER, this is only required "where discrimination in their operation is necessary to prevent danger," and I don't perceive this to be the case, here. Anyone beg to differ?

Like I say, just trying to learn. Still confused by "the DNO are justified in considering them moveable/portable/not perminant structures" which as I say does make sense, but through lack of experience an knowledge I don't know what the relevance of this is.

Owt wrong with any of my reasoning with respect to scope and relevant bits of the BGB?

 

[nickjohn]

Just got a copy of "guide to the wiring regs" from the ECA.
Section G5.

"Caravan: A trailer leisure accommodation vehicle, used for touring, designed
to meet the requirements for the construction and use of road vehicles."

The large static "caravans" are not constructed for road use as they have no brakes for a start..



708.530.3 Caravan pitch supply equipment "... shall be located adjacent to the pitch and not more than 20m from the connection facility on the [van] when on its pitch."

As these are permanent statics could you put the connection point within the van?? make things easier if the trip went at 2 in the morning on a wet night..

 

[spark 68]

Mobile or transportable units are covered by section 717

The scope for this section specifically excludes caravans.

717 refers to either:
i) self propelled vehicles or towed
ii) containers or cabins

In general the requirements in 717 are very similar to 721, except where they are even more onerous and complicated in cases of an onboard generators and the like.

It also differs in that section 721 mentions in Scope that this applies to "habitation purposes" where as section 717 does not, section 717 refers to examples of "technical facillities, fire fighting units, medical units, workshops offices etc....etc., in other words everything else apart from habitation purposes

re: 721 note 1, where it says "for mobile and residential park homes the general requirements apply"
it is referring to the general requirements for that section ie. 721

GN7 helps a lot in explaining the convoluted way the regs are written.

 

[happysteve]

Just got a copy of "guide to the wiring regs" from the ECA.
Section G5.

"Caravan: A trailer leisure accommodation vehicle, used for touring, designed
to meet the requirements for the construction and use of road vehicles."

The large static "caravans" are not constructed for road use as they have no brakes for a start..

Yes, hence all the stuff in 721 not relevant.

708.530.3 Caravan pitch supply equipment "... shall be located adjacent to the pitch and not more than 20m from the connection facility on the [van] when on its pitch."

As these are permanent statics could you put the connection point within the van?? make things easier if the trip went at 2 in the morning on a wet night..

Stuff in bold: this is pretty clear. Adjacent to the pitch does not equal in the van.

Stuff in red: makes no difference. 708 already makes allowances for the fact that these are for "leisure accommodation vehicles." (see definition in previous post, or Part 2 of the BGB),meaning static caravans. This definition states "temporary or seasonal occupation." So residential homes are not covered by 708 so the extra stipulations (above and beyond BGB regular stuff) don't apply. For residential homes you might well be able to tail straight in without "caravan pitch electrical supply equipment" - I don't know on this one. Seek advice from those experienced.

As I understand it, there are several ways in deciding whether it's a holiday static or a residential home. Council tax is the easiest, and the site owner will definitely know.

Sounds like you need a copy of the BGB.

vvv take note. vvv

 

[happysteve]

re: 721 note 1, where it says "for mobile and residential park homes the general requirements apply"
it is referring to the general requirements for that section ie. 721

GN7 helps a lot in explaining the convoluted way the regs are written.

Umm... forgive me, my take on that is different. Where in the note it says "the general requirements apply" I take this to mean the rest of the BGB.

As evidence, since you refer to GN7, page 11: "The particular requirements of Part 7 of BS 7671 supplement or modify the general requirements contained in the remainder of the standard." (my emphasis)

(this is basically repeating 700 of the BGB).

A static caravan is a mobile home (as defined in Part 2).

"The requirements [of section 721] do not apply to the following: electrical installations of mobile homes or residential park homes, to which the general requirements apply." (GN7, page 52).

I take all that to read, "721 does not apply to static caravans (or residential park homes)".

Anyone?

 

[spark 68]

section 7XX modifies and also supplements the other regs in the book in both BS7671 and GN7 (which of course is referenced to the regs), so you have to back track to the original reg and then intereprate what the modification/supplementary information is.

In section 721 note one, it states "the general requirements apply" (my emphasis), if it did not refer to this section it would have said general requirements apply, or given the basic reg numbers.
As you have pointed out further in your post, where it says "the requirements (meaning this section,721) do not apply to the internal electrical installation of leisure vehicles"

"The requirements [of section 721] do not apply to the following: electrical installations of mobile homes or residential park homes, to which the general requirements apply." (GN7, page 52).

Of course it doesn't, the CU and wiring inside of the caravan is just covered by the standard regs as any other installation would be, why would it be any different ?
Section 721 only refers to the additional and supplementary regs over and above the normal that is associated with the peculiarity of that type of install, it tells you this at the very top of page 52 of GN7.

 

[nickjohn]

Ordered a copy of the BGB something to read on those lonely winter nights...

 

[happysteve]

section 7XX modifies and also supplements the other regs in the book in both BS7671 and GN7 (which of course is referenced to the regs), so you have to back track to the original reg and then intereprate what the modification/supplementary information is.

Agreed. Sort of. I don't think there necessarily needs to be an original reg. "The particular requirements for each section (special installation or location) in Part 7 supplement or modify the general requirements contained in other parts of the Regulations." (700, BGB). So you can supplement or modify "the general requirements."

In section 721 note one, it states "the general requirements apply" (my emphasis), if it did not refer to this section it would have said general requirements apply, or given the basic reg numbers.

I disagree. I don't believe the distinction between "the rest of the BGB" (which is what I take to be meant by "the general requirements" and "this section specifically" (which seems to be what you're implying) rests on the presence or absence of the word "the". If it does, then surely 700 from the BGB (quoted above) would instead state: "The particular requirements for each section (special installation or location) in Part 7 supplement or modify general requirements contained in other parts of the Regulations."

As you have pointed out further in your post, where it says "the requirements (meaning this section,721) do not apply to the internal electrical installation of leisure vehicles"

Of course it doesn't, the CU and wiring inside of the caravan is just covered by the standard regs as any other installation would be, why would it be any different ?

The whole point of these "special installations or locations" is to "supplement or modify" "the general regulations". So yes, the vast majority of the CU and wiring inside the caravan is covered by the standard regs. Then the relevant sections of 721 supplement and modify these.

721 refers to "Electrical installations in caravans and motor caravans." So, the stuff inside the vans, not on the site (which is covered in 708).

Does 721 cover trains? No. It's pretty obvious it doesn't cover trains, so it doesn't mention trains. The BGB is pretty dull as it is, imagine if every time it mentioned something new, it said, "Oh, by the way, we're not talking about trains."

How about moon buggies? Again, no.

How about static caravans? They're caravans, right? Surely they must be covered under 721? And residential park homes? After all, they're rolled off the low loader on wheels, they even come with a tow bar (removable), so that makes them a caravan, in terms of the scope of 721 (which is "special installations or locations" to "supplement or modify the general regulations".)? Well, no:

"721.1 Scope: The particular requirements of this section apply to the electrical installations of caravans and motor caravans at nominal voltages [blah blah]. They do not apply to the electrical installations of mobile homes, residential park homes and transportable units."

So section 721 does not apply to mobile homes or residential park homes or transportable units.

I wonder if there are any special requirements for these sorts of things (since it mentions them)? "Note 2: For transportable unit, see 717" Ah, so transportable units has a special section. What about mobile homes and residential park homes? "Note 1: for mobile homes and residential park homes the general requirements apply."

So for mobile homes, the general regulations apply. Nothing mentioned in 721 applies, in the same way that nothing in 721 applies to a house.

Section 721 only refers to the additional and supplementary regs over and above the normal that is associated with the the peculiarity of that type of install, it tells you this at the very top of page 52 of GN7.

I agree entirely. I think where we differ is whether 721 the "particular type of install" covers static caravans or not. I say not.

 

[D Skelton]

I wonder if there are any special requirements for these sorts of things (since it mentions them)? "Note 2: For transportable unit, see 717" Ah, so transportable units has a special section. What about mobile homes and residential park homes? "Note 1: for mobile homes and residential park homes the general requirements apply."

So for mobile homes, the general regulations apply. Nothing mentioned in 721 applies, in the same way that nothing in 721 applies to a house.

I agree entirely. I think where we differ is whether 721 the "particular type of install" covers static caravans or not. I say not.

Section 717 deals with mobile or transportable units, exaples of such units include technical and facilities vehicles for the entertainment industry, medical or health screening services, welfare units, promotion and demonstration, firefighting, workshops, offices, transportable catering units etc.

Nowhere does it mention here mobile or transportable units suitable for habitation, thus we end up back at section 721. If this isn't enough to sway your opinion maybe this is; Section 29 (1) of the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960 ("The 1960 Act") a caravan is defined as any structure designed or adapted for human habitation which is capable of being moved from one place to another (whether by being towed, or by being transported on a motor vehicle or trailer) and any motor vehicle so designed or adapted.

A static caravan falls quite clearly into this description, therefore the only conclusion that can be drawn from this is that static caravans are caravans, therefore they are covered by section 721.

 

[spark 68]

It is the wording of the regs that is the problem, there is a lot of grey areas and overlap, and some incompatibities, also a few downright mistakes, they have to produce a series of guides for a guide for christ sake.

I still maintain you are incorrect about the wording in section 721, (I do have some training on this aspect :wink_smile, and it does refer to that section.

If I can find some other material that helps I will post it up, I may still have some course notes.

Caravans are mostly off the beaten track where the subject is just skimmed past on most courses, it is mostly common sense when you actually get into the nuts and bolts of it.

the parts of the wiring of the caravan itself in that section refer to permitted wiring types, ELV, DC supplies and other things which you would only really be bothered about if you were actually designing, building or repairing the things, and are not really relevent to this thread, the parts we are discussing here are covered on pages 57 and 58 of GN7, 7.6.1, 7.6.2 and 7.6.5 and 7.6.6, and mainly concern the supply to the caravan in conjunction with section 708

Part of section 721 see above paragraph (GN7 pg 57 and 58, 7.6.1, 7.6.2, 7.6.5 and 7.6.6) is also dependent to a large extent on the site/pitch at which it is based, which may (probably will be) be bound by it's own regs (section 708), the regs should not be taken in isolation they depend on other factors and sections in the BGB, sometimes you have to satisfy two very different seemingly contradictory criteria.

 

[happysteve]

Section 717 deals with mobile or transportable units, exaples of such units include technical and facilities vehicles for the entertainment industry, medical or health screening services, welfare units, promotion and demonstration, firefighting, workshops, offices, transportable catering units etc.

Nowhere does it mention here mobile or transportable units suitable for habitation, thus we end up back at section 721.

Agreed.

If this isn't enough to sway your opinion maybe this is; Section 29 (1) of the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960 ("The 1960 Act") a caravan is defined as any structure designed or adapted for human habitation which is capable of being moved from one place to another (whether by being towed, or by being transported on a motor vehicle or trailer) and any motor vehicle so designed or adapted.

A static caravan falls quite clearly into this description,

Interesting reference. I agree with you, according to this reference, (and generally) I would also call a static caravan a caravan too.

The BGB makes distinctions, though, that the 1960 Act does not. Why would this be the case? Well, tourers, camper vans suffer lots of vibrations as they get moved around for one thing... hence the supplementary requirements of (eg) 721.521.2 (flexible class 5 conductor or stranded cables) and 721.522.7 (vibration). Statics don't get moved around as much. Are statics wired in T&E? (Open question, I don't know the answer... they were 20 years ago, no idea about now!)

... therefore the only conclusion that can be drawn from this is that static caravans are caravans, therefore they are covered by section 721.

Against someone as respected and experienced as yourself, and others who disagree with my perspective on this, I know my words pretty much count for nothing.

So please help me understand how, within the scope of the BGB, "caravan" is clearly defined in part 2, as is "motor caravan"; both definitions exclude mobile homes and residential park homes ("statics"), as they are not "designed to meet the requirements for the construction and use of road vehicles." 721.1 explicitly states, "The particular requirements of this section... do not apply to the electrical installations of mobile homes, residential park homes."

Is there genuine ambiguity here?

 

[happysteve]

It is the wording of the regs that is the problem, there is a lot of grey areas and overlap, and some incompatibities, also a few downright mistakes, they have to produce a series of guides for a guide for christ sake.

[chopped purely for brevity]

the regs should not be taken in isolation they depend on other factors and sections in the BGB, sometimes you have to satisfy two very different seemingly contradictory criteria.

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I will have a look at the sections, and you make a very good point about taking things as a whole.

Thanks for trying to help me understand this.

Sh***ing Nora, is that the time?!? Time for bed, said Zebedee...

 

[spark 68]

Agreed.


Interesting reference. I agree with you, according to this reference, (and generally) I would also call a static caravan a caravan too.

The BGB makes distinctions, though, that the 1960 Act does not. Why would this be the case? Well, tourers, camper vans suffer lots of vibrations as they get moved around for one thing... hence the supplementary requirements of (eg) 721.521.2 (flexible class 5 conductor or stranded cables) and 721.522.7 (vibration). Statics don't get moved around as much. Are statics wired in T&E? (Open question, I don't know the answer... they were 20 years ago, no idea about now!)



Against someone as respected and experienced as yourself, and others who disagree with my perspective on this, I know my words pretty much count for nothing.

So please help me understand how, within the scope of the BGB, "caravan" is clearly defined in part 2, as is "motor caravan"; both definitions exclude mobile homes and residential park homes ("statics"), as they are not "designed to meet the requirements for the construction and use of road vehicles." 721.1 explicitly states, "The particular requirements of this section... do not apply to the electrical installations of mobile homes, residential park homes."

Is there genuine ambiguity here?

Where the regs are concerned there is always ambiguity see my previous post, you could put a dozen sparks in a room ask a question and get a dozen different answers!

your words always count for something, if nothing else it makes us look again from a different perspective, and sometimes makes us disregard preconcieved ideas.

 

[Des 56]

For once at least,on this forum,we have dispute and a discussion to boot that is probing and driven by understanding
The thread has been interesting from a watchers point of view, the contributions by all have been appreciated

Keep it up please

 

[Badged01]

The BGB makes distinctions, though, that the 1960 Act does not.

Just for some further thought around the definition of Caravan, the Act is Law the BGB is guidance?

- - - Updated - - -

For once at least, on this forum,we have dispute and a discussion to boot that is probing and driven by understanding

Agreed, a very useful thread if only for further "education" on the subject ..... could that be classed as continuing professional development!!

 

[happysteve]

For once at least,on this forum,we have dispute and a discussion to boot that is probing and driven by understanding
The thread has been interesting from a watchers point of view, the contributions by all have been appreciated

Keep it up please

Yeah, I agree. This sort of thing, plus a bit of banter (nowt wrong with banter) is the stuff I'm interested in.

Those who've given me their perspective: cheers. I will think on this, and read a bit more of the BGB and the GNs. Nothing I've heard so far has convinced me (yet).

This was me, last night:

(xkcd.com/386/)

Long may this sort of stuff continue!