Dot Dab Plaster wall - 35mm box? Plasterer at odds with electrician

[JLeague]

As part of my spec I said that I wanted 35mm back boxes. The walls have been taken back to the brick and will be dot and dabbed with plasterboard and then skim finished.

Electrician said that he can just screw the backbox onto the wall without digging into the brick because onces its dotted and dabbed the wall will come forward 35mm and cover the box.

Plasterer is adamant that is wrong and has said that he will do dot and dab but the wall will not come out as much so the boxes will protude.

 

[Vortigern]

Slightly off topic but how do you wire the ring in this case, horizontally or vertically between sockets?

 

[JLeague]

Just an update. Even though I specced it as 35mm I have decided to go with 25mm back boxes and slim profile face plates / sockets.

I am on a schedule and I need the electrician to finish before the plasterer comes in with his team which I cannot delay as he has secured all the plaster so if I didnt start on the agreed date he would need to be paid for 2 days delay for his whole team - 3 of them.

I am not having any dimmer switches - just standard light fittings and downlights.

 

[UNG]

Like that would make a difference? I'm assuming we're talking about a room here, not a cupboard!

It could make all the difference between a kitchen optimally fitting the space or not. A 3m x 2.5m room would lose just under 0.5m² of floor area, it doesn't sound a lot but in some areas of the country that could be a very expensive 0.5m²

 

[telectrix]

Like that would make a difference? I'm assuming we're talking about a room here, not a cupboard!

no wood left for a cupboard. it's all been used for your studding, and 1 tree less to absorb C02.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Call me old fashioned, but IMO plasterboard should only be used on ceilings, dot and dab was invented to speed up construction no other reason, any muppet can do it, very little skill involved, with hard plaster, cupboards and fittings can be fitted directly to the wall no need for noggins, but it does need skill which seems to be lacking in the building trade these days.
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Like that would make a difference? I'm assuming we're talking about a room here, not a cupboard!

Kitchen units are normally a multiple of 600, 300 & 400 so any reduction of space is at a premium to get all the units in, kitchen planning needs a bit of skill.

 

[nicebutdim]

Call me old fashioned, but IMO plasterboard should only be used on ceilings, dot and dab was invented to speed up construction no other reason,

I've never seen dot and dab used and only became aware of its existence a few years back, from watching youtube videos. I don't think this technique is used in NI at all. It seems a bit mad to take a solid wall and turn it into a hollow wall.

 

[JLeague]

I've never seen dot and dab used and only became aware of its existence a few years back, from watching youtube videos. I don't think this technique is used in NI at all. It seems a bit mad to take a solid wall and turn it into a hollow wall.

I thought one benefit was having a little air gap of 10-15mm helps with insulation a bit like double glazing - but I may be totally wrong!

 

[Mike Johnson]

If I remember correctly the Gypsum White Book says sufficient dab should be put on the wall to fill the void.

 

[Ian1981]

Call me old fashioned, but IMO plasterboard should only be used on ceilings, dot and dab was invented to speed up construction no other reason, any muppet can do it, very little skill involved, with hard plaster, cupboards and fittings can be fitted directly to the wall no need for noggins, but it does need skill which seems to be lacking in the building trade these days.
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Kitchen units are normally a multiple of 600, 300 & 400 so any reduction of space is at a premium to get all the units in, kitchen planning needs a bit of skill.

I’ve never ever seen dot and dab used on ceilings as the plasterboard is fixed to the timbers by screws, dabbing it , it would simply fall down or move.

 

[Mike Johnson]

You don't dot and dap on ceilings, I thought that would be understood and did not need explaining, perhaps you are too young to remember the traditional way of constructing domestic buildings.

 

[Baddegg]

Dot and dab is a quick way to refurb old buildings whose render coat has lost adhesion...used a lot down here on old terrace buildings...never gonna be 35 mm though, cost alone would prevent it, done properly it would finish as per the original inch ish 25 mm render and plaster finish,personally I’d put 35 mm boxes in but sometimes as per the op there’s a tight window.....but don’t forget depending on age of building, you may not even get the 25 mm you need in some areas!

 

[Mike Johnson]

Dot and dab or any type of finish should not be used on top of blown render, it should all be hacked off and then you can hard plaster.

 

[Baddegg]

Dot and dab or any type of finish should not be used on top of blown render, it should all be hacked off and then you can hard plaster.

I assumed that was a given ?

 

[Ian1981]

You don't dot and dap on ceilings, I thought that would be understood and did not need explaining, perhaps you are too young to remember the traditional way of constructing domestic buildings.

Ha I miss read your post , you said plasterboard only.

 

[pirate]

If a kitchen fitter can't trim down a unit to fit the space he's not a "fitter" at all. They are adept at putting in "filler" boards to make up a gap of a few inches, and clearly prefer to do that rather than trim a larger unit to fit.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Well everyone else miss reads the post's so why not you as well, we seem to need the minutiae in all explanations or someone will come back with a question that should be a given.

 

[telectrix]

You don't dot and dap on ceilings, I thought that would be understood and did not need explaining, perhaps you are too young to remember the traditional way of constructing domestic buildings.

you mean lath and plaster with half a horse's hair in the plaster, or straw walls?

 

[Zerax]

You don't dot and dap on ceilings, I thought that would be understood and did not need explaining, perhaps you are too young to remember the traditional way of constructing domestic buildings.

I'm too young too Mike... like this you mean ?

 

[UNG]

Call me old fashioned, but IMO plasterboard should only be used on ceilings, dot and dab was invented to speed up construction no other reason, any muppet can do it, very little skill involved, with hard plaster, cupboards and fittings can be fitted directly to the wall no need for noggins, but it does need skill which seems to be lacking in the building trade these days.

Dot and dab was introduced in an attempt to increase the insulation value of walls.
For a decent plasterer dot and dab is no quicker than bond and skim

If a kitchen fitter can't trim down a unit to fit the space he's not a "fitter" at all. They are adept at putting in "filler" boards to make up a gap of a few inches, and clearly prefer to do that rather than trim a larger unit to fit.

Trimming a cupboard is the easy bit it's trimming the doors that generally causes the problems
Although I do know a couple of companies that will build kitchen cupboards and doors to customer sizes which does solve a lot of space problems

 

[nicebutdim]

Trimming a cupboard is the easy bit it's trimming the doors that generally causes the problems
Although I do know a couple of companies that will build kitchen cupboards and doors to customer sizes which does solve a lot of space problems

In most instances it would be more expensive to resize doors (if at all possible), than to dump them and fit new. Regardless, someone would have to pay for any modifcations and it would be a rather extreme solution to the problem of the spark not wanting to chase 35mm boxes.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Dot and dab was introduced in an attempt to increase the insulation value of walls.
For a decent plasterer dot and dab is no quicker than bond and skim

Absolute not, dot and dab was only introduced to speed up construction for mass produced domestic building no waiting for drying periods when a three layer plaster construction was normal to plaster a house, there is no thermal advantage to plasterboard unless it has a insulation layer in its construction, in which case a 35mm box would fit behind it, dot and dab is completed in one day, traditional plastered walls takes three days, plus a drying period, don't know if you have ever worked on any sites, but you obviously have not seen traditional plastering done correctly.
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you mean lath and plaster with half a horse's hair in the plaster, or straw walls?

Not straw wall, but cob walls.

 

[nicebutdim]

Occasionally I've seen old houses where walls have been battened and boarded, but that was a cheap fix over rough walls. When such old houses are refurbished, those walls are picked bare and floated out in plaster.

The whole idea of dot and dab is alien to me and I really struggle to understand why someone would want to finish a solid wall in this way. Is there a significant saving per sq meter on finished walls and does dot and dab impact on sale value of houses?

 

[Mike Johnson]

Most punters now days do not know the difference between dot and dab and traditional wall plastering, its only used in this modern age in very high end domestic building, the last one I was involved with at 67million had to import the plasterers from Poland to get the finish they required, the saving is in the time it takes to do a good job, as I said dot and dab in a day traditional takes many days.

 

[nicebutdim]

They could have contracted plasterers from NI as this is how they finish walls every day of the week.

 

[Mike Johnson]

One of the walls in the mansion was over 20M long and looking from one end there was not a fault or flaw to be seen, craftsmanship at its highest, mind you the electrics left a lot to be desired, but these high end domestic buildings only have a life expectancy of 10:20 years.

Sample of their work: HARRISON VARMA - Recherche Google - https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C5CHFA_enGB718GB718&sxsrf=ALeKk02OePxRYbN7kVapUq7v5qfq4uYb5Q:1598043022929&source=univ&tbm=isch&q=HARRISON+VARMA&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjQsN6Vlq3rAhWCiVwKHaWqAuQQjJkEegQICRAB&biw=1268&bih=619

 

[OnlQQker]

Dot & Dab can get you out of a whole host of problems with houses built in the 50/s 60's, especially when existing walls are unlevel, cracked and contain different finishes like multi finish, fillers and cement, as well as umpteen coats of different paints. All of which cause bubbling, cracking and different drying times when plastering over, unless of course you strip it back to bare walls which takes forever cuz most of the base coats are strong mortars!
Saying that Browning is just as bad to strip back as well.

On solid brick walls though then best to lime plaster it so it can breathe!

 

[Baddegg]

Most punters now days do not know the difference between dot and dab and traditional wall plastering, its only used in this modern age in very high end domestic building, the last one I was involved with at 67million had to import the plasterers from Poland to get the finish they required, the saving is in the time it takes to do a good job, as I said dot and dab in a day traditional takes many days.

where was this then mike?....I could phone 5 British plasterers now who could do it, don’t believe the hype it’s about the cost of the tradesmen not a skills shortage....

 

[Mike Johnson]

Look two post above, and I can assure you it's about the skill not the cost.

 

[Baddegg]

Look two post above, and I can assure you it's about the skill not the cost.

Looked at it? Not seeing anything a British spread couldn’t do...

 

[Mike Johnson]

On solid brick walls though then best to lime plaster it so it can breathe!

Hah you have been reading too many blogs on Facebook re French building, walls do not breathe they allow water vapour to pass, in the UK we have more water vapour outside our buildings than inside, but we don't get many solid brick walls since the victorian times, in 1954 when the building regulations first came out cavity wall construction became the normally accepted construction method and the introduction of two coats of Browning and finish became the norm and if you ever saw how much interstitial condensation happens on the inside of a cavity wall you would not question its permeability.
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Looked at it? Not seeing anything a British spread couldn’t do...

If they are that good then I doubt they are available.