RCD Protection required or Not

[Paulgwat]

Hi all,
Apologies for long post.

I have been asked to change two ceiling lights, an extractor fan and shaver socket in a bathroom, this is like for like but the shaver socket and lights would in the zones, therefore in my understanding it makes the job notifiable in England.

There is no RCD protection in the property at all and the DB serving the part of the house in question is located in one of the properties other bathrooms behind a sliding wardrobe door but is within about 1M of the bathroom sink - not sure I am comfortable with said wardrobe door being classed as a secondary boxing as it appears to be left open most of the time.

The bathroom containing the DB was redone a couple of years ago and appears to have had a number of additions / alterations to the circuits so I am surprised the lack of RCD topic didn’t come up then.

DB is a metal MK one from 16th Edition days and covers all lights over 4 floors as well as sockets.

DB is fed from a mains isolator in another part of the property via 16mm T&E, no overcurrent protection.

I really don’t want to be looking at replacing the whole DB and or moving it out of the bathroom where it has happily resided for probably 20+ years and the customer isn’t keen on the costs / disruption that would cause.

My thought currently is to use a Switch Fuse (60A fuse) with an RCD as the main switch to protect the DB supply cable and give this portion of the installation some RCD protection and recommend they put a secondary cabinet around the DB.

i realise that this potentially opens the doors to other regs issues i.e. nuisance tripping etc but I am looking for a sensible compromise solution between leaving as is ( I.e. not doing the job) and fitting a whole new RCBO DB outside the bathroom that leaves the customer with a safer installation.

How would you approach this?

Paul

 

[Dartlec]

Hi all,
Apologies for long post.

I have been asked to change two ceiling lights, an extractor fan and shaver socket in a bathroom, this is like for like but the shaver socket and lights would in the zones, therefore in my understanding it makes the job notifiable in England.

If it is a direct replacement part for part and you are not altering cable runs etc, then technically it would not be notifiable under Part P (though the stipulations of Part P apply to all work regardless of course)

It is possible that the Fan will have manufacturers instructions which should be complied with (like 3A fuse) etc, which in theory are above any regulation and need to be complied with (Though this seems to be often ignored in practise)

There is no RCD protection in the property at all and the DB serving the part of the house in question is located in one of the properties other bathrooms behind a sliding wardrobe door but is within about 1M of the bathroom sink - not sure I am comfortable with said wardrobe door being classed as a secondary boxing as it appears to be left open most of the time.

Sounds a bit , It sounds like it might technically be out of the zones, and I believe if in a separate cupboard might technically 'comply' but how likely is it to be splashed or got wet? Does sound like at the very least a more permanent door between it and a curious wet person would be a good idea...

The bathroom containing the DB was redone a couple of years ago and appears to have had a number of additions / alterations to the circuits so I am surprised the lack of RCD topic didn’t come up then.

If it was done by the bathroom fitter then I'm not the least surprised..... Of course any additions/alterations should have been notified under Part P, which you can check online

DB is a metal MK one from 16th Edition days and covers all lights over 4 floors as well as sockets.

DB is fed from a mains isolator in another part of the property via 16mm T&E, no overcurrent protection.

I really don’t want to be looking at replacing the whole DB and or moving it out of the bathroom where it has happily resided for probably 20+ years and the customer isn’t keen on the costs / disruption that would cause.

My thought currently is to use a Switch Fuse (60A fuse) with an RCD as the main switch to protect the DB supply cable and give this portion of the installation some RCD protection and recommend they put a secondary cabinet around the DB.

i realise that this potentially opens the doors to other regs issues i.e. nuisance tripping etc but I am looking for a sensible compromise solution between leaving as is ( I.e. not doing the job) and fitting a whole new RCBO DB outside the bathroom that leaves the customer with a safer installation.

How would you approach this?

Paul

Sounds like you are approaching this in the same frame of mind as me.

Regulations state the minimum and have to be complied with - but they also don't necessitate the wholesale replacement of things that are still functional. However, sometimes circumstances sometimes require more than the minimum to do a 'good job' for the customer.

If the MK board is fairly recent, then i should be possible to install RCBOs in the board? That would be my first thought - or perhaps adding an RCD in the board for some or all circuits, if it has the requisite 2 neutrals.

MK switchgear is still available at least, even if their boards are no longer being made, so altering the board sounds like a better solution to me, while complying with discrimination, etc.

Are you saying that the DB is currently fed in 16mm Twin and Earth via a Henley Block or similar, with no overcurrent protection? How long is that cable?

In which case a switch fuse to protect those tails seems necessary as well. Under the 18th, putting an RCD main switch in would probably not be compliant for reasons you have mentioned (and that work would be notifiable under Part P). It would also have to be able to take the full DNO fuse current (so 100A or 80A RCD) as that would be the overprotection device in such a setup.

I'm assuming this property is TN-S or PME?

Personally, I'd probably be recommending the switch fuse for the tails and RCBOs on circuits in the bathroom, and put in writing the reasons why - so that if the client refuses then you have something to cover yourself.

 

[Wilko]

Personally I decline jobs if at the end it’s not going to be compliant. Does the bathroom have supplementary bonding? A minimum upgrade to add RCD for the special location perhaps? I agree a like for like maintenance change is not a Part P notifiable activity.

 

[Paulgwat]

Thanks for the replies,

The board is a double height MK sentry one with LN5930 MCB’s in it and from doing some research it appears that once upon a time there used to be an adaptor kit to allow use of newer MCB’s but this is no longer available.

The 16mm T&E runs from the meter location to the DB which is on the 3rd floor so minimum of 10M at a guess, no idea of routing so could be longer

it’s PME.

i am going to have a talk with the customer and see where we go from here.

thanks.

Paul

 

[telectrix]

I suggest fitting a RCD FCU and then supply all bathroom fittings from that.

 

[Dartlec]

Thanks for the replies,

The board is a double height MK sentry one with LN5930 MCB’s in it and from doing some research it appears that once upon a time there used to be an adaptor kit to allow use of newer MCB’s but this is no longer available.

The 16mm T&E runs from the meter location to the DB which is on the 3rd floor so minimum of 10M at a guess, no idea of routing so could be longer

it’s PME.

i am going to have a talk with the customer and see where we go from here.

thanks.

Paul

Ah sorry, I thought those MK boards were older than 16th edition. While there may be some available used and tested from trusted sellers, I'd always tend to avoid that route

RCD Spur for the bathroom fittings as telectrix suggests sounds a good compromise. That will likely make it Part P notifiable if any of the work is within the zones (or any of the circuits being altered are).

I've found it rare that spotlights actually end up in the zones and notifiable when installed because of the 2.25m height limit (which I've always found daft, but them's the rules).