Renting property - VIR (Rubber Cable) - EICR, is this allowable if pass tests?

[Bignose2]

Hi,

Renovating property, done most & unfortunately (stupidly) now realized there is fair bit of VIR rubber cable still installed in the lighting circuits.

The ring has been done, all circuits proctected by RCD etc.

The cable surprisingly seems in good condition but appreciate only whats visible but where able to & moved it is not breaking & seems OK.

I know it should be replaced but wondered IF it passes restistance test is this allowable, expecially being rental.

If it was the ring main I would replace no question but lighting not so sure although as I understand won't have an earth so not sure how that may effect RCD protection etc.

To be honest suspect 4/5 years of renting & the whole place likely knocked down & rebuild something bigger! hence trying to avoid.

Thanks I/A

 

[westward10]

The fact it is a lighting circuit and not a ring final is not relevant it is still a cable whose primary purpose is to insulate copper conductors. If that insulation is deteriorating which it is likely to be then it should be replaced, rubber cables should be considered past their reasonable service life.

 

[Bignose2]

Hi,

Thanks for your reply & as I say "I know it should be replaced", so thanks for that confirmation but I was asking if it was allowable regulation wise, if it passes an insulation test.

My point about the circuits was lighting is only likely to draw a relatively small amount of AMPS so far less likely to fail. Of course any short can cause a fire but not going to be pulling 30 amps that is far more likely to overheat & fail in many ways.

A simple yes or no with the disclamier saying however it is a really bad/stupid idea, would have sufficed.

 

[westward10]

What does your electrician say?
Has your consumer unit been replaced?

 

[mezi]

It would be best to remove it asap, it might be good today but fall apart tomorrow and set the building on fire. The cable is past its life expectancy.

could be worth asking the building insurance if they are happy to pay out if there is a fire.

Arc fault detection is a must if you have to keep it and frequent inspections.

 

[buzzlightyear]

My point about the circuits was lighting is only likely to draw a relatively small amount of AMPS so far less likely to fail. Of course any short can cause a fire but not going to be pulling 30 amps that is far more likely to overheat & fail in many ways.

Old VIR cable. no doubt will have an cpc with it.
Especially if you have class 1 fittings.

 

[littlespark]

The act of taking off switches or fittings to do some tests would probably wreck the insulation as it is.

Are we looking at VIR singles in conduit, or old rubber t&e?

 

[Bignose2]

Rubber T&E

A few switches were replaced by the decorators & the cable seems!! remarkably good, at that time but as suggested perhaps the act of putting them back into place would have then cracked them unseen.

As sensible as it is to replace would be interested to know if in theory they seem OK, etst OK, can the EICR pass as a C3 (as I understand) important but not urgent.

 

[westward10]

What does your electrician say and has the consumer unit been replaced?

 

[buzzlightyear]

As sensible as it is to replace would be interested to know if in theory they seem OK, etst OK, can the EICR pass as a C3 (as I understand) important but not urgent.

Has it ever had an EICR.

 

[Bignose2]

Sparky came out for a pre EICR guidance, had a spare few minutes, says it should be replaced but only had a quick look, did not do close visual inspection.

We thought all the rubber was dead to be honest as lots of new cabling, it was a brief look around the house.

Had a new metal RCD CU in garage 5 or 6 years ago & that protects an older CU inside but just MCB's.
To regs but not idea as would trip the whole house but he was happy with that.

Don't think there has ever been any triping other than when we knew a microwave was dead & the same for a hoover.

 

[westward10]

So who rewired the ring final circuit?

 

[buzzlightyear]

Sparky came out for a pre EICR guidance, had a spare few minutes, says it should be replaced but only had a quick look, did not do close visual inspection.

We thought all the rubber was dead to be honest as lots of new cabling, it was a brief look around the house.

Had a new metal RCD CU in garage 5 or 6 years ago & that protects an older CU inside but just MCB's.
To regs but not idea as would trip the whole house but he was happy with that.

I would not happy to say that, me thinks
This post is no going nowhere.

 

[brianmoooore]

In my experience from 40 odd years ago, when I was coming across and assessing VIR T&E nearly every day, it was the lighting circuits that had deteriorated the most, especially above light fittings where they had been exposed to heat, and in lofts where the ambient temperature would have been 30 degrees + on summer days.

 

[westward10]

I wonder who rewired the ring final???

 

[Rockingit]

The answer is that it needs replacing, irrespective of appearances.

The purpose of an EICR is to assess if an installation is fit and safe for continued use and the very fact that VIR is widely recognised as being unfit for continued service informs that answer.

 

[Teddy Lop]

If tyres have a safe design life (for the sake of argument ) of say 10 years and you have a car with 30+ year old tyres that "look ok" is that fine? If those tyres are on the car of your daughters boyfriend will it probably be alright? Or, the car she hires on holiday, is that okay?

I don't mean the above to sound hyperbole but especially when offering a service people pay for you have to consider how some might view things after the event.

Personally I've tested and found VIR in reasonable condition but I'll only sign it off for 1-2 years.

 

[DefyG]

Of course any short can cause a fire but not going to be pulling 30 amps

Any 'short' or partial 'short' irrespective of circuit current can cause arcing and a fire to develop.

I don't think any 'bona fide' electrician will sign off an EICR as Satisfactory as it is, making it unsafe to rent!

As the landlord surely you have a duty of care to prospective renters to make sure the property they move into is safe, not just electrically either.

 

[vjsmarwick]

I’m now no longer working due to health but when I started over 40 years ago we were pulling out old rubber cabling even then so I certainly wouldn’t be leaving any connected now even if it is testing ok !
Like others have said it’s long long past its lifespan! Change it and sleep sound at night knowing you have done the right thing !

 

[EddieB]

Hi,

Renovating property, done most & unfortunately (stupidly) now realized there is fair bit of VIR rubber cable still installed in the lighting circuits.

The ring has been done, all circuits proctected by RCD etc.

The cable surprisingly seems in good condition but appreciate only whats visible but where able to & moved it is not breaking & seems OK.

I know it should be replaced but wondered IF it passes restistance test is this allowable, expecially being rental.

If it was the ring main I would replace no question but lighting not so sure although as I understand won't have an earth so not sure how that may effect RCD protection etc.

To be honest suspect 4/5 years of renting & the whole place likely knocked down & rebuild something bigger! hence trying to avoid.

Thanks I/A

We were replacing the old rubber cables back the early 70's, there is no way you should leave this cable in situ regardless of how it tests. I wouldn't sleep easy at night knowing that was still part of the renovation.
Get it replaced fella!

 

[EddieB]

We were replacing the old rubber cables back the early 70's, there is no way you should leave this cable in situ regardless of how it tests. I wouldn't sleep easy at night knowing that was still part of the renovation.
Get it replaced fella!

 

[UNG]

I know it should be replaced but wondered IF it passes restistance test is this allowable, expecially being rental.

If you know it needs to be replaced why are you trying to avoid doing it

To be honest suspect 4/5 years of renting & the whole place likely knocked down & rebuild something bigger! hence trying to avoid.

And what if the VIR wiring doesn't last that long, what if your electrician only issues a 6 or 12 month EICR due to the wiring rather than the normal 5 year EICR, what if the redevelopment doesn't happen in 4/5 years will you be looking for another reason to retain the VIR wiring
For me looking at it from a business point of view are you prepared to carry all the potential risks and losses by not replacing the VIR wiring which could fail at anytime and put peoples lives at risk

 

[Teddy Lop]

Any 'short' or partial 'short' irrespective of circuit current can cause arcing and a fire to develop.

I don't think any 'bona fide' electrician will sign off an EICR as Satisfactory as it is, making it unsafe to rent!

As the landlord surely you have a duty of care to prospective renters to make sure the property they move into is safe, not just electrically either.

The point of an EICR is to test what's in front of you; while I think we'd all agree rubber cabling should always attract a rewire advisory, failing it out of hand defeats the whole point of the various checks and tests one does to establish the condition.

FWIW I've found rubber cabling in use with no discernable breakup and happily able to show 1000 megs; signing it off followed a bit more sampling than the typical and reduced retest advisory, but beyond noting it's expected lifespan it's treated like anything else.

If we're gonna obsess over projected lifespans/fitness WRT design we'd need to basically raze most of London.

 

[littlespark]

we'd need to basically raze most of London.

Well that might sort out the house prices down there.