Hager High integrity board + RCBO’s + solar install.

[Debrahim]

Hi, I have a dual RCD board made by Hager installed a couple of months ago.

It is high integrity, which I understand to mean RCBO’s can be fitted as well. (I got an EICR and let’s just say it was awful. The electrician who did the EICR even wrote a report for me but that’s another story).

After the posts on here I want to go full RCBO, and it seems this board allows it.

So that I vaguely know what I’m talking about when getting an electrician in, am I correct in thinking he or she would disconnect the RCD cables and then remove from the busbar. Then where the RCD was, the busbar would be left without a mcb/ RCBO, and a blank fitted, to prevent any fingers going in etc.

Or where the rcd was, can another RCBO be added ? Or should it just be kept blank as above? Basically what should be done to make it a RCBO board?

Board

HGVML914CUSPD

I’m pretty confident that this board can become a RCBO board, simply by removing the RCD’s and MCB’s, and then using RCBO’s. Am I correct ?

Lastly I’m having solar PV fitted, it seems that everyone is having just standard type A, B curve RCBO’s put in:

Obviously this is for their electrician to do, but a bit of pre-planning.

I looked in the manual, and they just refer to a ‘breaker’ I read a thread several years ago that referred to needing a type B breaker due to DC current, but I thought it is a bit odd as the power coming from the inverter into the house, should be AC and there should be no or little DC leakage.

I have a second DB, which was installed in 2012, It’s a plastic Hager, 6 circuit board, with 4 circuits. I want to replace this with a board with SPD, and RCBO’s, I will buy a bigger board, and the solar will go on here.

The inverter is 5kw, (410 x13 panels) so 5.3kw (never going to get that).

Lastly the battery, which can discharge at up to 5kw/h and likewise charge at 5kw/hr. Is right on the borderline in terms of breaker size. I found that Hager do 25 amp breakers which would be ideal, or do you think they will just whack 32 amp breakers in ? I assume if they use a big enough cable it’s fine.

Thanks for any advice.

 

[James]

we would love to see the EICR (with the personal details redacted) also pictures would be a bonus.

 

[westward10]

You could do as you suggest which would make it 18 way but you would need a complete new busbar which are available.

Hager VAB21 21 Module Busbar - for the Consumer Units

Sparks Electrical Wholesalers sells a wide range of electrical items including Hager VAB21 21 Module Busbar - for the Consumer Units.

www.sparksdirect.co.uk

 

[pc1966]

As @westward10 says a new busbar would be the best solution to making it suited to RCBOs

For the PV and battery side of things you will need to check the manufacturer's instructions as to the sort of RCD protection it needs.

Hager do not make type B RCBOs (they do make B-curve for the over current side, as an example of ill-thought through nomenclature that confuses everyone) so if it needs type B RCD protection then you would be looking at a separate RCD. This could go in the CU with a MCB feeding it (sort of the opposite direction to the RCDs feeding your MCBs just now) but in that case the busbar would have to be shorter to give it space to go at the end, otherwise it would need a separate DIN rail enclosure.

However, some PV inverters do not need RCD protection (assuming the supply cable is such that it is not needed, that is unlikely for most homes) or they can work with A, or in some cases AC, as they have built-in DC fault protection. It very much "depends", so check the manufacturer's instructions and discuss with your electrician.

 

[Debrahim]

You could do as you suggest which would make it 18 way but you would need a complete new busbar which are available.

Hager VAB21 21 Module Busbar - for the Consumer Units

Sparks Electrical Wholesalers sells a wide range of electrical items including Hager VAB21 21 Module Busbar - for the Consumer Units.

www.sparksdirect.co.uk

Hi,

Thanks for the reply and help, the link takes me to a website which then gives me 21 ways from the busbar.

My unit only has 14, (with the two rcd’s)

If I can’t find the right busbar, am I correct in thinking I could use the current one but just limited to 14 ways ?

If I went to CEF or TLC do you think they would have the right busbar?

 

[Debrahim]

As @westward10 says a new busbar would be the best solution to making it suited to RCBOs

For the PV and battery side of things you will need to check the manufacturer's instructions as to the sort of RCD protection it needs.

Hager do not make type B RCBOs (they do make B-curve for the over current side, as an example of ill-thought through nomenclature that confuses everyone) so if it needs type B RCD protection then you would be looking at a separate RCD. This could go in the CU with a MCB feeding it (sort of the opposite direction to the RCDs feeding your MCBs just now) but in that case the busbar would have to be shorter to give it space to go at the end, otherwise it would need a separate DIN rail enclosure.

However, some PV inverters do not need RCD protection (assuming the supply cable is such that it is not needed, that is unlikely for most homes) or they can work with A, or in some cases AC, as they have built-in DC fault protection. It very much "depends", so check the manufacturer's instructions and discuss with your electrician.

Hi

As @westward10 says a new busbar would be the best solution to making it suited to RCBOs

For the PV and battery side of things you will need to check the manufacturer's instructions as to the sort of RCD protection it needs.

Hager do not make type B RCBOs (they do make B-curve for the over current side, as an example of ill-thought through nomenclature that confuses everyone) so if it needs type B RCD protection then you would be looking at a separate RCD. This could go in the CU with a MCB feeding it (sort of the opposite direction to the RCDs feeding your MCBs just now) but in that case the busbar would have to be shorter to give it space to go at the end, otherwise it would need a separate DIN rail enclosure.

However, some PV inverters do not need RCD protection (assuming the supply cable is such that it is not needed, that is unlikely for most homes) or they can work with A, or in some cases AC, as they have built-in DC fault protection. It very much "depends", so check the manufacturer's instructions and discuss with your electrician.

Cheers that makes sense - I know it’s got some sort of dc surge protection/ mcb device built in. But having read the manual, it just says ‘breaker’ all the time.

Maybe I’m being dim but isn’t this a Hager type B RCBO ?

Hager Reduced Height 30mA 6kA Type B 32A RCBO - ADA332G

Get the Hager ADN132 30mA 6kA Type B 32A RCBO at the best trade price with fast, free delivery available from Electrical2Go.

www.electrical2go.co.uk

 

[westward10]

Hi,

Thanks for the reply and help, the link takes me to a website which then gives me 21 ways from the busbar.

My unit only has 14, (with the two rcd’s)

If I can’t find the right busbar, am I correct in thinking I could use the current one but just limited to 14 ways ?

If I went to CEF or TLC do you think they would have the right busbar?

With the RCDs removed you have 18 available ways, the RCDs are two module apiece so that makes 4 + 14 = 18. The busbar I linked can be cut down.

 

[nicebutdim]

Hi

Cheers that makes sense - I know it’s got some sort of dc surge protection/ mcb device built in. But having read the manual, it just says ‘breaker’ all the time.

Maybe I’m being dim but isn’t this a Hager type B RCBO ?

Hager Reduced Height 30mA 6kA Type B 32A RCBO - ADA332G

Get the Hager ADN132 30mA 6kA Type B 32A RCBO at the best trade price with fast, free delivery available from Electrical2Go.

www.electrical2go.co.uk

Type B trip curve for overcurrent protection, but Type A earth leakage/residual current protection.

 

[DPG]

Hi,

Thanks for the reply and help, the link takes me to a website which then gives me 21 ways from the busbar.

My unit only has 14, (with the two rcd’s)

If I can’t find the right busbar, am I correct in thinking I could use the current one but just limited to 14 ways ?

If I went to CEF or TLC do you think they would have the right busbar?

Your electrician will most likely want to obtain the parts he will be using.

 

[Debrahim]

we would love to see the EICR (with the personal details redacted) also pictures would be a bonus.

I would but there is legal action ongoing, or there was until one of my best friends (who’s a solicitor with several years standing) wrote him a reply (using the letterhead from one of the top law firms - whom she works for). May well be that he’s applying to the court, or may have decided with the experts report not worth it, - if nothing happens in a month happy to share it, if you are really that keen. To cover myself I got 2, both from independent electricians. -

Let’s just say when number 1 opened the board up, the screws in some terminals were so loose the busbar nearly fell out. Even the ones which were held in, the torque screwdriver needed a fair bit of work. To try gauge tightness, he set it lower (the Nm) I can’t remember and it wasn’t even that tight. I think he tried it on half the manufacturers spec.

I mean I’m in a predicament now. One thought is to buy one large board with two rows, but the problem is the new cables and wiring is too short, and the plastic board too long. (Thanks for pointing out the old colours, we traced it, to where it should have been changed according to contract - but didn’t bother). Someone in the thread said it’s his kitchen - to clarify I had a kitchen extension in 2013 so everything is in new colours (and it is of course in the plastic Hager box, which was installed exactly for that purpose.

Anyway I want to move on, I want to resolve issues not look back on them. But in the original thread willing to post outcome, EICR x2 one with additional commentary in writing and pics once it’s all done.

 

[Debrahim]

Your electrician will most likely want to obtain the parts he will be using.

That’s fine but if I know where it is, I can direct him to the correct place.

 

[davesparks]

That’s fine but if I know where it is, I can direct him to the correct place.

Your electrician will know where to buy a length of busbar from, or may even have some already, it's a pretty common item.

 

[Debrahim]

Thanks, I thought it had to be specific, to the board. I remember years ago you could just snap the busbar at the right place.

You guys are certainly very protective, - haha. I’ve agreed a day rate with my electrician, as quite a few jobs need doing.

 

[pc1966]

You guys are certainly very protective, - haha.

Giving advice has a risk, and those asking for advice are often not as knowledgeable or experienced to provide all information or to know quite what to do with it. Otherwise they would not be asking...

CU replacement and/or new circuits are notifiable work under Part P of the England and wales building regulations so this forum has rules to be cautious about any advice. Also none of us really want to read about death or injury resulting from ill considered actions.

 

[pc1966]

Maybe I’m being dim but isn’t this a Hager type B RCBO ?

The over-current side of protection, as for MCBs, has 3 options in the UK (in EU at least two more) and they cover the relationship between the rated current 'In' and the point where the magnetic instant trip kicks in. Here 'instant' means under a cycle of the 50Hz mains. They are:

• B trip at 3-5 * In
• C trip at 5-10 * In
• D trip at 10-20 * In

For example, a 32A B-curve MCB will trip fast somewhere between 96A and 160A.

The B-curve is most common for domestic work, C-curve is frequently seen in commercial/industrial work where large switch-on surges are present (e.g. lots of simultaneously switch lights in an office, etc) and D-curve is occasionally seen for big loads like motors or transformers, or for sub-mains feeding another distribution board (but can present issues of disconnecting fast enough for a final circuit's protection).

RCD are grouped by how well they cope with DC components in the fault waveform and the most common 3 are:

• AC - only rated to trip on an AC fault, seen in older RCD and not suited to any electronic loads (which is most stuff now bar water heaters)
• A - trips on a AC + DC load, such as rectified mains. Suited for most circuits that are unlikely to present a smooth DC fault.
• B - trips for DC and AC faults. This is ideal case, but the DC-sensing aspect makes them far more expensive than AC/A types so restricted for special loads like EV or PV set-ups.

Of course, once you are looking at RCBO you have both combined, so you see the clash of B-curve over-current but not B trip for RCD!

Most RCBO seem to be type A for the RCD side these days (as AC trip really should be relegated to history) and usually B or C for over-current. Personally I have never seen RCD B-trip or MCB D-curve in a RCBO but they might exist somewhere...

 

[baldelectrician]

I have just fitted a new dual row Hager consumer unit with SPD for a client who has EV, will be getting battery and PV

Hager do a change over switch (SF263), which is NOT an isolator (you will need the isolator in the main unit as well as an isolator in the new unit for the generator supply part

The change over switch is manual but allows you to alter between battery and mains at a flick of a switch- your electrician will need to decide with you which circuits you want on the batery side.

I installed a VML91620CUSPD which allowed dual RCD, 3 RCBO's and an unprotected way for the central heating (combi boiler, trunking, no buried cables etc)

If you are going for a straight RCBO then a VML11820SPD would do well. 38 total available ways- massive and room for extras - such as din rail mounted meter that may come with your solar panels

Allows all your stuff in the one consumer unit with room to spare.

We have started suggesting dual row consumer units for this reason

 

[WallaceP]

If you are converting a dual rcd board to mainswitch+RCBOs you might want to replace the neutral bar too, otherwise you will have to link them together.

 

[Debrahim]

With regards to the plastic Hager board made in 2012

Giving advice has a risk, and those asking for advice are often not as knowledgeable or experienced to provide all information or to know quite what to do with it. Otherwise they would not be asking...

CU replacement and/or new circuits are notifiable work under Part P of the England and wales building regulations so this forum has rules to be cautious about any advice. Also none of us really want to read about death or injury resulting from ill considered actions.

you really think I’m going to dismantle the board, order new RCBO’s, and wire it in ? I haven’t got the knowledge let alone the time. Perhaps you should campaign to make it a restricted product, like when I go to the wholesalers to order meds they check the register, or buying a product with R32 in it!