Two NICEIC installers failed to spot the lack of earth

[snowhead]

It is likely the disconnection was made under 26(3) as this requires no such remedial action be considered. The DSO version of "its MY ball and I'm taking it home"

And before I bring my ball back out to play I'll want paying for the cost of reconnection and possibly the disconnection as well.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

It is likely the disconnection was made under 26(3) as this requires no such remedial action be considered. The DSO version of "its MY ball and I'm taking it home"

If there was danger present as a result of the fault, I could see their argument. But a missing earth is still 1 step away from danger. Seems to me that the knee-jerk disconnection of power could itself cause danger.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Conversely did they check to ensure that no one within those flats was going to be left vulnerable by switching off the electricity and having no lighting or heating?

 

[JosephandAmber]

Would you not at least sort the one you were originally changing a CU for?

The problem was that the front garden is owned by the basement flat who need to give permission to install the rod - which we've now had.

It seems a bit of overkill to me, switching off the power to the whole building without notice, for a fault that has probably been there for decades. On the few occasions that I, or my clients, have reported defective earths, the DNO has been much more 'relaxed' in their response to it, usually dealing with it in a matter of weeks rather than days.

Were there any parallel paths via bonding etc?

In the flat I was dealing with well... there was no bonding despite the EICR saying there was.

Only the same as dealing with four clients, and let's not forget getting paid four times.

Just looked up the Sec 26 Notice:

Who does the Esqcr Regulations 2002 apply to?
—(1) This regulation applies to distributors' low voltage networks in which the neutral and protective functions are combined.

Did you take a reading off the incoming sheath?

So to complicate things further the suppliers head had been boxed over meaning you couldn't get to the incoming cable. You could see however that it had no remains of a previous TN-S connection.

Now this will be an interesting thread to have updated @JosephandAmber
Do keep us posted. As soon as you get any updates you need to stop whatever you are doing, log on and update

Will do!

If there was danger present as a result of the fault, I could see their argument. But a missing earth is still 1 step away from danger. Seems to me that the knee-jerk disconnection of power could itself cause danger.

I think what made matters worse was it is clear the general installation was ancient. Only 1 of 4 flats had an RCD.

Conversely did they check to ensure that no one within those flats was going to be left vulnerable by switching off the electricity and having no lighting or heating?

So they knocked on all the doors and informed those who were in. Those who were not got a notice and a call to their landlord/agent. As it stands the tenants are in hotels.

After a lot of discussions, all landlords have got their act together and I have permission to install a TT system tomorrow morning. I'll connect the flat I was working on and then they can decide if they want me to do their connections. Although I will insist on an EICR at the same time since their existing EICRs are clearly worthless.

Will update once I hear from NICEIC!

 

[Mike Johnson]

How many supplies into the building, one or four?

 

[UNG]

Will update once I hear from NICEIC!

If there is not a positive / satisfactory outcome with the NICEIC this is one that really should be elevated to the UKAS complaints process

 

[pc1966]

It might be worth also reporting it to Trading Standards, see this thread:

Poor EICR report results in prosecution

I've just stumbled across the below elsewhere online, anyone aware of it? PRESS RELEASE: ELECTRICIAN’S GUILTY PLEA OVER REPORT SIGNING OFF UNSATISFACTORY ELECTRICS -- A Pembrokeshire electrician has pleaded guilty to supplying a report claiming the electrics in a household property were...

www.electriciansforums.net

 

[JosephandAmber]

So was back at the property today (yes, Sunday). Sunk an earth rod and got a reading of 14.2 which I must admit surprised me. Power is back on for the property I was working on. Two flats have turned the power back on themselves but want me to do an EICR and connect their earth. The fourth flat, well I've not heard anything from them yet and the tenant is currently staying in a hotel.

 

[JosephandAmber]

It might be worth also reporting it to Trading Standards, see this thread:

Poor EICR report results in prosecution

I've just stumbled across the below elsewhere online, anyone aware of it? PRESS RELEASE: ELECTRICIAN’S GUILTY PLEA OVER REPORT SIGNING OFF UNSATISFACTORY ELECTRICS -- A Pembrokeshire electrician has pleaded guilty to supplying a report claiming the electrics in a household property were...

www.electriciansforums.net

Just submitted to Camden council. Will see what happens. I suspect as I am not the property owner they are going to wiggle out of taking any action.

 

[brianmoooore]

Wow I hope those guys get chucked out of the cps but bet nothing happens, prob NICEIC will just say you need to complain direct to the contractors first, completely missing the point..

Doubt if even that will happen.
What should happen is that they are prosecuted for fraud and endangering of life, and imprisoned, but I won't hold my breath.
When 'Part P' was proposed, I said that the only difference will be that the monkeys out there will just become monkeys with a bit of paper in their hands. Won't make any difference to standards.
Looks like I've been proved wrong. Standards have dropped.

 

[JosephandAmber]

Quick update - trading standards have been in touch for more details. NICEIC has confirmed someone has been assigned to the case but I have yet to hear from them.

I forgot to mention this in my initial post - the flat that had recently had the CU upgrade had a new earth running from the flat all the way to the non-existent MET. The electrician had then just left the cable disconnected and energised the new CU. This property is managed by an agent who has insisted on sending the same electrician back to make good the job. I bumped into him and gave him an earful - he didn't have much to say other than straight-up lie. Unfortunatly I don't think the agent is going to share his details with me, nor did his van or CU have any branding on it.

So right now I'm going after the company that issued the fraudulent EICR for the flat I worked on.

 

[Mike Johnson]

The tenant will have details of the letting agent if you want that information to give to trading standards.

 

[pc1966]

As @Mike Johnson says you ought to get info from the tenants about the agents and then Trading Standards or even HSE can compel them to provide information on who did the work and registration status, etc.

It is not just dodgy electricians that are the issue, it is those landlords who use them when they almost certainly know better.

 

[nicebutdim]

I forgot to mention this in my initial post - the flat that had recently had the CU upgrade had a new earth running from the flat all the way to the non-existent MET. The electrician had then just left the cable disconnected and energised the new CU.

Not a single **** given. Takes a special sort of person to knowingly leave a property like that.

 

[Spaldingsparks]

Well done for being an honest electrician and No main earth to me is a code 1 requiring immediate rectification or disconnection.

I once went into a prayer house that had no earth and the people had removed their footwear bare floors and the walls had just been plastered a few days before. This was some time ago I put a neon screwdriver on the wall as they were complaining of electric shocks! that was no earth at all, my trusty neon lit up like a spotlight the walls were live I checked the MET and connected it all then ok. cowboys have been about a long time this was in the late 70s

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

So I've just sent off a complaint to the NICEIC (they are listed as a domestic installer) concerning the EICR that was issued for the property I was working on. I've attached the EICR (Ze included) they issued and the UKPN notification that the property has no earth. I will update you when I get a response.

I am in the process of getting the details for the other property.

Btw NICEIC don't make it easy to complain, do they? Download and fill out a PDF that then has to be emailed to a specific address. Why not you know... just have an online complaints form?

Unless they are approved for PRS - eicrs then the domestic installer scheme doesnt cover EICRS, so they may turn around out say its outside of the scope or the work they are approved for, nothing to do with us... however if they put the NICEIC logo on the certs or have been completely daft then you might find the NICEIC do take action as there has been a change of late where they do take action. if you say which area they are in somebody on here will likely know which assessor covers that area you might then get somewhere.

I would be more inclined to go to trading standards as its fraud and illegal trading etc... a spark recently got prosecuted and find for doing a drive by EICR on a house pre purchase. it was trading standards who took him to court

 

[JosephandAmber]

So I have a response from the NICEIC:

Good afternoon Mr XXXX,

Thank you for your email and bringing to our attention the condition report which was conducted by XXXX Services.

When it comes to complaints associated with EICR’s (Electrical Installation Condition Reports) our process is limited as to what action we can take. This is due to the fact that, as its title indicates, the document is a report and not a certificate.

It provides an assessment of the current in-service condition of an electrical installation against the requirements of the edition of BS 7671 current at the time of the inspection, irrespective of the age of the installation.

The report is primarily for the benefit of the person ordering the work and of persons subsequently involved in additional or remedial work, or further inspections. The report may be required for one or more of a variety of reasons, each of which may impose particular requirements or limitations on the inspection and testing.

As such, the engineer carrying out and producing the report will come to a conclusion based on their assessment of the installation, using their experience and knowledge.

Invariably, different engineers have different opinions of installations and their associated coding outcomes.

Where we see clear and obvious errors within an EICR and coding observations that do not reflect industry standard best practice guidance, we can investigate further and seek clarification from the contractor as to why certain coding’s and observations were used.

Please note, this may result in certain observations or coding’s receiving clarity from the contractor responsible for the report, however it may not change the technical outcome of the EICR and the report itself may remain as ‘unsatisfactory’ in terms of the overall assessment of the installation.

We will now review the EICR with our engineer and get back to you with clarity on the matter and advise you of the next steps we can proceed with.

When deciding on which contractor to use for an EICR, we recommend the use of a contractor who is registered with the NICEIC as an Approved Contractor, as undertaking and producing EICR’s form part of the contractors annual assessment process.

Contractors registered with the NICEIC as Domestic Installers are predominantly registered on this scheme to undertake work associated with Part P of The Building Regulation which covers work in domestic properties.

Private landlords in the rental sector should also refer to the new legislation which came into force on June 2020, detail of this legislation can be obtained in the link below

Guide for landlords: electrical safety standards in the private rented sector - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/electrical-safety-standards-in-the-private-rented-sector-guidance-for-landlords-tenants-and-local-authorities/guide-for-landlords-electrical-safety-standards-in-the-private-rented-sector

If you have any questions please do not hesitate to contact me on the details below.

 

[pc1966]

So basically you got a template reply and not anyone who actually read your complaint?

 

[timhoward]

So basically you got a template reply and not anyone who actually read your complaint?

It does at least say
"We will now review the EICR with our engineer and get back to you with clarity on the matter and advise you of the next steps we can proceed with."

I can imagine the phone call...
"Hello, it's Mr Cholmondley-Warner esq. here from NICEIC. Good afternoon. Thing is, we've had an enquiry about an EICR you did. How did you go about measuring the external earth loop impedance.... oh I see you did it by enquiry and the DNO said 0.35 ohms, ok, splendid, splendid. What about all the measured Zs readings then? Oh they were by calculation based on R1+R2 values. That's all fine and perfectly understandable then. Were you at all bothered about the complete lack of anything yellow and green near the cut-out? Oh you're colour blind and it was dark, yes that's completely understandable. Sorry to have bothered you, have a good day."

I've also known someone creatively claim the report related to a different property and was an admin mix up when I was asked to do remedials and found the entire report was fiction.

But these things aren't usually quite so black and white so this will be an interesting one to follow.

 

[UNG]

So I have a response from the NICEIC:

As such, the engineer carrying out and producing the report will come to a conclusion based on their assessment of the installation, using their experience and knowledge.

Invariably, different engineers have different opinions of installations and their associated coding outcomes.

Where we see clear and obvious errors within an EICR and coding observations that do not reflect industry standard best practice guidance, we can investigate further and seek clarification from the contractor as to why certain coding’s and observations were used.

Please note, this may result in certain observations or coding’s receiving clarity from the contractor responsible for the report, however it may not change the technical outcome of the EICR and the report itself may remain as ‘unsatisfactory’ in terms of the overall assessment of the installation.

We will now review the EICR with our engineer and get back to you with clarity on the matter and advise you of the next steps we can proceed with.

When deciding on which contractor to use for an EICR, we recommend the use of a contractor who is registered with the NICEIC as an Approved Contractor, as undertaking and producing EICR’s form part of the contractors annual assessment process.

How does the NICEIC assess the coding's and observations if there aren't any relating to the lack of any earthing on the installation

In cases like this it always annoys me that the DNO will not use it's weight and raise a complaint with the NICEIC

I'm now looking forward to the outcome of the review and how they can provide more clarity on something as serious as a total lack earthing on an installation

When deciding on which contractor to use for an EICR, we recommend the use of a contractor who is registered with the NICEIC as an Approved Contractor, as undertaking and producing EICR’s form part of the contractors annual assessment process.

And exactly how do the NICEIC assess a contractors ability to produce accurate and truthful EICR's as it is clearly failing somewhere

When it comes to dodgy and poor quality EICR's I do wonder how many there are out there with people believing they have a safe installation that complies with the regs, while most of what we see on here relates to domestic installations there must be just as many commercial installations in a similar state in fact just over 12 months ago I was asked to review a recent EICR on a local church (my wife is on the PCC) it had unswitched sockets down as a C2 for no means of isolation but had no mention of the state of the service head and the number or 951 clamps on the incoming cable for the main earths. I had the chance to review all the EICR's dating back to 2004 and they all had missed very obvious faults that would have lead to an unsatisfactory report had the inspection and test for each EICR been done correctly at the time and all of them done by NICEIC approved contractors so the failing EICR system has been around for a good while