High Ze reading fails EICR

[Maarel]

Hello there. I've been looking around here and found some conflicting information. I have a question if I may ask. I had an electrician come over to perform an EICR, and all the installations were in good nic. However, he said that the Ze measurement was 14.5 Ohms on a TNS system, so he refused to sign it off. I've arranged for the DNO to investigate, and they say that our stairwell need to be rewired due to outdated wiring, which would take them 1-2 months. The issue is that I need a valid EICR in a maximum of two weeks, and I'm wondering if there's any chance he could have signed this off as satisfactory, considering that the dwelling's electrical installation is protected by an RCD, which, if I understand correctly, would isolate the system within the required 0.4 seconds in case of an Earth fault.

 

[westward10]

This all sounds very confusing. Firstly EICRs do not fail they are either satisfactory or unsatisfactory. Secondly you don't refuse to sign it off, observations are Coded and noted in the Report and submitted to the client. Thirdly why are the DNO suggesting your stairwell needs rewiring which could take up to two months. What exactly needs rewiring, their supply or your stairwell wiring?

 

[Maarel]

This all sounds very confusing. Firstly EICRs do not fail they are either satisfactory or unsatisfactory. Secondly you don't refuse to sign it off, observations are Coded and noted in the Report and submitted to the client. Thirdly why are the DNO suggesting your stairwell needs rewiring which could take up to two months. What exactly needs rewiring, their supply or your stairwell wiring?

My apologies for being confusing. Yes, he mentioned that he couldn't sign off the EICR with high Ze readings. He explained that if someone were to see that he had issued a satisfactory EICR under those conditions then he could get in trouble, he said he would return to retest and issue a satisfactory EICR once the earth issue is resolved. He didn't assign a specific fault code; I asked him for an EICR, and he stated that he could only provide it as unsatisfactory.

I live in an 1890 tenement building. The DNO guy says that the entire block stairway needs to be rewired, the part from the street to each flat.

 

[plugsandsparks]

The earth reading is poor and it makes all the individual ccts fail the maximum allowed readings. When i have come across such instances i have aborted the testing until the earth has been corrected. It will need testing again when the earthing system has been improved anyway (ze at least).
Suggest address the DNO as i would be worried (and it sounds like it affects multiple homes) that i and others have a poor electrical installation that cannot react correctly to all possible fault types.

 

[Rockingit]

Firstly, the ‘inspector’ is way off the mark. They are required to issue a report regardless of the ultimate outcome so therefore should have just noted this issue on the report they produced. Secondly, whilst it sounds like this situation does indeed need investigating/resolving it needs to be taken in a greater context - Ze isn’t generally speaking an issue, Zs IS, however if circuits are RCD protected then this becomes a moot point. Which basically in layman’s terms means making a decision on whether or not something is likely to harm someone before it gets fixed.

 

[Maarel]

Firstly, the ‘inspector’ is way off the mark. They are required to issue a report regardless of the ultimate outcome so therefore should have just noted this issue on the report they produced. Secondly, whilst it sounds like this situation does indeed need investigating/resolving it needs to be taken in a greater context - Ze isn’t generally speaking an issue, Zs IS, however if circuits are RCD protected then this becomes a moot point. Which basically in layman’s terms means making a decision on whether or not something is likely to harm someone before it gets fixed.

Many thanks. I have a feeling that something is off with this guy. I was just wondering if he could have coded this as C3, or is it more likely to be C2 or even FI? I understand that that’s he’s decision to make but would like to hear other seasoned electricians take on this.

He conducted R1+R2 tests for all circuits and mentioned that the resistance readings were acceptable. He also tested the RCDs, and all the tests passed, as did the insulation resistance tests.

 

[westward10]

I would Code 2 it, the fact it has RCD protection is not really relevant as you cannot rely on an RCD for protection in the absence of an earth.

 

[pc1966]

Following the BPG#4 guidance this would be a C2 for "Absence of a reliable and effective means of earthing for the installation" so unsatisfactory.

If the DNO supply has a failing earth (which is pretty much what has been measured) then all of the supplied flats are at risk. It is possible that the Zs due to bonded service pipes will be much lower if they are in turn linked to properties with good earthing, etc, but that is not something you can depend upon (basically it only takes a plumber to replace a section in plastic, or use a plastic push-fit joint, and it is gone).

It is also true that RCD/RCBO protection would deal with such a high Ze for faults downstream of the devices, but any fault on the cables feeding the flats would leave the installation metalwork at a dangerously high voltage, as well as faults in any flats sharing the faulted earth connection that have MCB-only protection for any circuits.

While the DNO is proposing to replace the old failing cable here, in some cases where the DNO earth is no longer acceptable they will not do anything about it and instead you need to convert the property to a TT earth arrangement using a suitable earth rod instead of using the DNO's connection. Although the design of a TT installation is not very different to a modern all-RCD/RCBO protected installation, the Devil is in the details of lowered risk for faults pre-RCD as they simply will not clear on the typically available earth.

If you absolutely must have it solved before the DNO can act, and there is a sane route for a separate TT earth to a rod, then having an upfront delay RCD fitted and making it TT for now is an option to discuss with your electrician.

 

[loz2754]

they will not do anything about it

I thought the ESQCR required the DNO to maintain any earth that they provide.

 

[kropaske]

This is interesting scenario. Seems that DNO are very slow in response to this situation. When I had similar readings on the job they were within couple of hours not months digging outside.
But assuming there is relatively new CU with tails nicely glanded and secured and all circuits RCD protected. The path to earth exist but it's high resistance, which will be rectified by DNO. What danger is actually present to the occupiers with Ze of 14.5ohms
Are the readings within limits - NO
Will RCD provide fault protection within specific time for all circuits - YES
So where is potentially dangerous situation here? Can we not rely on RCD for fault protection in a same way we do on TT, just for the time until repair is done, then revisit and retest?

 

[Mike Johnson]

The issue is that I need a valid EICR in a maximum of two weeks, and I'm wondering if there's any chance he could have signed this off as satisfactory, considering that the dwelling's electrical installation is protected by an RCD, which, if I understand correctly, would isolate the system within the required 0.4 seconds in case of an Earth fault.

First why do you need a valid EICR in two weeks? are you letting the property?
The RCD protection will not work effectively/efficiently without a satisfactory Earth.
Looks like your only route is to install an earth rod and delay type RCD as pc1966 suggests.
Your electrician should have issued an EICR with the content noted, this at least shows willing on your part if you are letting out the apartment.

 

[pc1966]

I thought the ESQCR required the DNO to maintain any earth that they provide.

Almost. What it actually says is:

Equipment on a consumer’s premises
24.—(1) A distributor or meter operator shall ensure that each item of his equipment which is on a consumer’s premises but which is not under the control of the consumer (whether forming part of the consumer’s installation or not) is—

(a) suitable for its purpose;​

(b) installed and, so far as is reasonably practicable, maintained so as to prevent danger; and​

(c) protected by a suitable fusible cut-out or circuit breaker which is situated as close as is reasonably practicable to the supply terminals.​

​

The catch is "so far as is reasonably practicable" which I have heard leads to occasions when they simply decide it is not practical / cost-effective to replace something.

 

[westward10]

This is interesting scenario. Seems that DNO are very slow in response to this situation. When I had similar readings on the job they were within couple of hours not months digging outside.
But assuming there is relatively new CU with tails nicely glanded and secured and all circuits RCD protected. The path to earth exist but it's high resistance, which will be rectified by DNO. What danger is actually present to the occupiers with Ze of 14.5ohms
Are the readings within limits - NO
Will RCD provide fault protection within specific time for all circuits - YES
So where is potentially dangerous situation here? Can we not rely on RCD for fault protection in a same way we do on TT, just for the time until repair is done, then revisit and retest?

14.5 ohms today but what will it be in a weeks time. With TT we have a reference for the fault path but can this be compared.

 

[pc1966]

So where is potentially dangerous situation here?

In most cases the risk is low, but seeing 14.5 ohms for a TN earth means that some cable corroded or loose to the point of barely conducting. In the event of a high current fault I would expect that to blow open. After someone resets the MCB/RCBO no more earth and ADS.

Now it might be OK, it might be the cable has opened / corroded through at a far end and really is a 14.5 ohm earth rod now, so it would take the fault energy with only warm earth around it, but it is not known so not something that would make me sleep easy.

edit: beaten to it by @westward10

 

[kropaske]

@pc1966 , @westward10
I take both of you points guys but we only testing on the day and we can't really assume how long this fault was preset, and whether it will get worst in a day or year. We also know that repair is arranged. Whether satisfactory or not, would you leave this installation live and walk away? Why not for example make it satisfactory and schedule weekly visits to verify that connection it's still there untill repair is complete. Would that not be better then just give unsatisfactory and walk away.

 

[pc1966]

Whether satisfactory or not, would you leave this installation live and walk away?

Without knowing enough about the installation the question of if it could be left live is not answerable.

Most probably it can, as this is C2 sort of risk and ADS would work at least once. There might be other risks such as a ground floor flat with touchable class I lights outside on the at-risk CPC system, etc. But the owner & occupier(s) need to know of this, and also what mitigation steps are needed (if any) until it is fixed properly.

Why not for example make it satisfactory and schedule weekly visits to verify that connection it's still there untill repair is complete. Would that not be better then just give unsatisfactory and walk away.

An EICR is a bit like a MOT, a summary of the system at the time of the test being satisfactory or not. Here it is not.

What to do next is a separate issue. As far as I understand from the OP's posts, the electrician is refusing to sign off a satisfactory just now but is willing to come back and do so after that is addressed, which is all right and proper. It seems the pressure for "satisfactory" now comes from some other aspect, as @Mike Johnson suggested probably for letting reasons.

 

[baldelectrician]

There is no effective means of earthing

We get this occaionally and SPEN are quite quick to fix things- although they took a month to fix one in Galston (they assumed the whole install had RCD by glancing, despite more than one property off the supply)

I raised a complaint with SPEN but it went nowhere.

 

[Maarel]

My apologies, let me get this right. The electrician is refusing to issue an EICR, I need the report either if it is satisfactory or not. It’s not for letting purposes but for an application for license I need for next August. The deadline is approaching and if I don’t get it sent in I would have to wait over a year. In order to apply I need all documents. I would have sent in the unsatisfactory EIRC and by the time they process my application Earth will be sorted and Ze retested to satisfactory.

 

[westward10]

There is nothing to stop them issuing the EICR.

 

[baldelectrician]

My apologies, let me get this right. The electrician is refusing to issue an EICR, I need the report either if it is satisfactory or not. It’s not for letting purposes but for an application for license I need for next August. The deadline is approaching and if I don’t get it sent in I would have to wait over a year. In order to apply I need all documents. I would have sent in the unsatisfactory EIRC and by the time they process my application Earth will be sorted and Ze retested to satisfactory.

Just request the unsatisfactory EICR.

Probably better to do it in writing / email etc

 

[Maarel]

ok I pressed he to send it over but this does not look right, I’ve seen he haven’t put in values for R1 R2 and also no test values for RCD, please see attachment. Is this is how the report should have been done or this guy is a cowboy? Also there’s not any c1, c2 or c3 codes with the observation sheet. When he was here he said everything is ok and he have put in notes that installation is ok but pending rewiring in the stairway. He said he’s registered with niceic and that was the reason I choose him. Please any opinion or I am overthinking?

 

[westward10]

That schedule is totally incomplete.
RCD types, continuity for the ring finals which I assume you have, R1+R2, RCD readings all N/A when that should not be the case.
The Ze should be a Code 2 minimum.
I would be questioning this.

 

[SJD]

Apologies if I missed it, but how long was the electrician on site? To complete the above table of results, they'd need to be there around half a day (assuming 1 person).

 

[Maarel]

Ok thanks, appreciate you’re taking time to answer.

Westward10 I will confront him about the luck of readings.


He was there for around 2 hours. I’ve seen he tripped the RCD with his diagnostic tool. I seen he was plugging he’s machine into sockets. However, I don’t believe he did any insulation test or r1 r2 for lighting circuits as I was around and didn’t see him taking off any of the accessories.

Also the report says water mains and gas are bonded but I just checked and there are no water main bond due to the incoming pipe is made of PVC

 

[ipf]

Just reading #6
''He conducted R1+R2 tests for all circuits and mentioned that the resistance readings were acceptable. He also tested the RCDs, and all the tests passed, as did the insulation resistance tests''.
You, or he, seem to know what's involved regarding the tests.
It seems pretty obvious that it is a sub main problem of some sort......then again, looking at those results, who knows?
It would be interesting to know where the sub mains to each flat are fed from and how the splitting occurs.
I'm wondering, here......
What 'instrument' did he plug in.... a socket tester for polarity???
How much did he charge for the supposed EICR?

 

[Rockingit]

OK, so issues of this particular inspection scenario aside, when is an Earth not an Earth?

Many have suggested (rightly so) a temporary lashup with a rod and S-Type to TT it until it gets fixed. If the 'new' rod has an Ra of 50-60-70Ω that's considered entirely fine as it's under the magic 200Ω but is clearly worse than the original value of 15Ω. Yet we say we can't rely on an RCD for fault protection due to 'lack' of an Earth. At least the 15Ω gets you a pefc of 16A which clearly will take out an RCD.

 

[davesparks]

My apologies, let me get this right. The electrician is refusing to issue an EICR,

OK, so issues of this particular inspection scenario aside, when is an Earth not an Earth?

Many have suggested (rightly so) a temporary lashup with a rod and S-Type to TT it until it gets fixed. If the 'new' rod has an Ra of 50-60-70Ω that's considered entirely fine as it's under the magic 200Ω but is clearly worse than the original value of 15Ω. Yet we say we can't rely on an RCD for fault protection due to 'lack' of an Earth. At least the 15Ω gets you a pefc of 16A which clearly will take out an RCD.

But it is unknown as to why an earth that would have been under 0.8 ohms has become 15 ohms, it could be a solid 15 ohms or be very unstable.

An earth rod would likely be higher yes, but it would be stable and a known quantity.

 

[Rockingit]

But it is unknown as to why an earth that would have been under 0.8 ohms has become 15 ohms, it could be a solid 15 ohms or be very unstable.

An earth rod would likely be higher yes, but it would be stable and a known quantity.

That's a fair point, although you'd think that the DNO would have checked several times before committing to a renewal?

 

[pc1966]

That's a fair point, although you'd think that the DNO would have checked several times before committing to a renewal?

If it is 80+ year old cable and earth failing they are unlikely to check why, beyond a quick check at the cutout, so just proceed to schedule replacement?

 

[Maarel]

Just reading #6
''He conducted R1+R2 tests for all circuits and mentioned that the resistance readings were acceptable. He also tested the RCDs, and all the tests passed, as did the insulation resistance tests''.
You, or he, seem to know what's involved regarding the tests.
It seems pretty obvious that it is a sub main problem of some sort......then again, looking at those results, who knows?
It would be interesting to know where the sub mains to each flat are fed from and how the splitting occurs.
I'm wondering, here......
What 'instrument' did he plug in.... a socket tester for polarity???
How much did he charge for the supposed EICR?

I was told about the r1 r2 being acceptable but after doing some research I’m starting to doubt if he did that for all circuits as I didn’t see him taking off any light fittings. He plugged in his megger, the same he used to trip the RCDs.

I was charged £160 for the job

 

[westward10]

I would be asking for a completed EICR with all results correctly entered and Codes as necessary.