Two NICEIC installers failed to spot the lack of earth

[Lister1987]

And exactly how do the NICEIC assess a contractors ability to produce accurate and truthful EICR's as it is clearly failing somewhere

They don't, thry merely "authorise' to do them, all that is required is to cross a palm with silver and you're good.

 

[UNG]

They don't, thry merely "authorise' to do them, all that is required is to cross a palm with silver and you're good.

Which is the point I was making the NICEIC made what I think is a false statement in what I quoted from their response

 

[Teddy Lop]

So I've just sent off a complaint to the NICEIC (they are listed as a domestic installer) concerning the EICR that was issued for the property I was working on. I've attached the EICR (Ze included) they issued and the UKPN notification that the property has no earth. I will update you when I get a response.

I am in the process of getting the details for the other property.

Btw NICEIC don't make it easy to complain, do they? Download and fill out a PDF that then has to be emailed to a specific address. Why not you know... just have an online complaints form?

I first tried complaining to them about a members fantasies regarding installation particulars before there even was a part P and all that, didn't get far.

Its a peculiar dissonance between the a-ho assessor who seems to want to catch me out and school me every year and the response you get as joe public with a complaint. But yeah, there is TONS of drive-by false EICR's going on, and the way aforementioned assessor squirms and informs me that this is in fact some "variability" that needs "education" is pathetic.

BTW UKPN are terrible - took half a year to get them to attend site on an earth failure to a block of flats I had in hampstead, then the guy just PME'd it and waltzed off, no other checks of any kind. A more recent one they just point blank refused to come out until the client submitted an EICR, then the following day the earth mysteriously came back down from ~1.5 to 0.3 ohms! Ultimately though, the most you'll get from them is they'll replace their rotten 80 year old cable to the street (after you've done all the hard work installing duct for them) and charge you about 10 grand to sling a cable down it. And thats only if you're babysitting them and able to refute their "snags" that incur penalty cancellation charges and threats/attempts to leave client with no power...

 

[JosephandAmber]

Good morning Joseph,





Thank you for your email below.



I can confirm that we have forwarded through your complaint for an internal investigation against the contractor however due to confidentiality clauses with all memberships, we cannot provide the outcome of the investigation as some may affect a contractors membership.



If you have any questions please do not hesitate to contact me on the details below.



Kind regards, XXXX

Upon asking for an update with regards to my complaint this is what I received. What do we think my next steps should be?

 

[Mike Johnson]

Trading standards, possibly the tenant should also go to citizens advice to put the landlord on the line and find out the trading name of the electrician.

 

[pc1966]

I agree with @Mike Johnson as it seems the scheme is closing ranks and not doing anything about the issue. Trading standards don't have any membership fees confidentiality issues to hamper them in getting some redress for the original payers of the work.

 

[Markyd]

Had dealings with the NICEIC twice in the last six months about two installs done by two different tos$pots....They just dont want to know which makes them tos$pots also

 

[DefyG]

Why not you know... just have an online complaints form?

Laughable really as one of the items they check during an annual assessment is that you have procedures set up for dealing with complaints!

 

[Simon47]

Btw NICEIC don't make it easy to complain, do they?

Of course not - they don't want any complaints. What has become perfectly clear from this and many other threads is that they are interested in one thing only - collecting their membership fees.

 

[Dartlec]

Btw NICEIC don't make it easy to complain, do they? Download and fill out a PDF that then has to be emailed to a specific address. Why not you know... just have an online complaints form?

To be fair not sure that's just about avoiding complaints - their entire online system for their members is a mess of various things stuck together with packing tape from what I can tell whenever I try to find something.

They push us having complaints procedures and check that each year, but don't seem set up to deal with issues from third parties directly to them.

I have heard of them getting members back out to correct issues, but would be interested to know how many they actually cancel each year.

It's always a problem when you have private schemes that charge money for membership, as the incentive is not to lose their cash cow - and any bad press seems not to make enough impact on their bottom line to get them to do anything.

What should have happened was that electricians went towards some sort of CORGI like scheme, nationally registered with a single body, with proper independent oversight.

Then the entire industry could work together to improve standards across the board.... What a novel and completely idealistic idea!

 

[Mike Johnson]

A Government run scheme would have to be overseen by the HSE who are not set up to administer electrical installations, jobs for the boys come to mind, to set up such an organisation would take months of planning and special committees to prepare a report on how to set it up, then recruitment would start from within the Civil Service, first class honours degree a minimum standard overseen by a minister, but then the most essential part is setting up a committee to name the department, that would take at least a couple of years, any suggestions? I would go for Committee Responsible for Administration of Power Supplies or C.R.A.P.S.

 

[Lister1987]

Think it's a bit unprofessional; ending an email with kisses

 

[UNG]

Upon asking for an update with regards to my complaint this is what I received. What do we think my next steps should be?

Had dealings with the NICEIC twice in the last six months about two installs done by two different tos$pots....They just dont want to know which makes them tos$pots also

As the NICEIC are a UKAS accredited organisation I would elevate the complaint to UKAS , at the bottom of the contact us page "I have a complaint or wish to give feedback about UKAS or one of UKAS’ accredited organisations" which gives phone and email contact details

Maybe it needs the UKAS assessment people to ask questions of the NICEIC I don't see how you can have a complaints procedure and not inform the person making the complaint whether the complaint is upheld or not. To sight confidentiality as a reason for not informing the outcome of a complaint is a bit of a poor and weak excuse when any complaint involves not only the reputation or lack of that the contractor has shown but also that of the NICEIC as they are the ones who have assessed the contractors competence
I just wonder how many more nails are needed before the NICEIC is dead and buried as a once respected organisation you can't live on your past reputation when the industry is now going to the dogs on the back of making a quick buck and no doubt a pay bonus for those running it

 

[Petej999]

They don't, thry merely "authorise' to do them, all that is required is to cross a palm with silver and you're good.

Bad news for the NICEIC if it's true

 

[Mike Johnson]

Perhaps the NICEIC has had its day, time to move to a different scam provider perhaps?

 

[Petej999]

Perhaps the NICEIC has had its day, time to move to a different scam provider perhaps?

Oh no

 

[Mike Johnson]

News story:

Mass resignation forces NICEIC to bankruptcy and close its membership scheme/scam.

 

[Lister1987]

News story:

Mass resignation forces NICEIC to bankruptcy and close its membership scheme/scam.

It's not April 1st for a few more days Mike

 

[UNG]

News story:

Mass resignation forces NICEIC to bankruptcy and close its membership scheme/scam.

If only it was true

 

[Mike Johnson]

Only the members can make it happen.

 

[Dustydazzler]

Only the members can make it happen.

I would happily refuse to pay in a joint resignation / protest

 

[Garyburger]

I’m asking a similar question about no earth into a block of 6 flats
I have attached an email from 3 years ago
Any advice please

 

[DefyG]

Poor Earth - Whatever that means, doesn't mean No Earth!

Surely an FI (Unsatisfactory) on the EICR?

 

[Dartlec]

I’m asking a similar question about no earth into a block of 6 flats
I have attached an email from 3 years ago
Any advice please

Did you get the EICR in the end? If so, what did it say for the type of supply? (TN-C-S, TN-S or TT)?

If they were purpose built flats then a suitable earth should have been provided (and it's possible there is foundation earthing or similar in place). Do you know when they were built?

The main issue of concern with your reading would be to ensure that it is a suitable earth rod or equivalent and not provided via copper water piping or similar. That should have been checked at the time of an EICR, though it can be difficult if there is common piping.

Even if the DNO couldn't provide a PME supply at the time, they may be able to now - though it can get complicated with flats as sometimes the building management has responsibility for internal stuff and not the DNO.

If you don't already, you will want to be checking your RCDs work by pressing the test button very 6 months to ensure they are still in working order.

If you can provide a picture of your consumer unit and your main fuse head/meter, it may be clearer, depending on how things are wired....

 

[Garyburger]

Did you get the EICR in the end? If so, what did it say for the type of supply? (TN-C-S, TN-S or TT)?

If they were purpose built flats then a suitable earth should have been provided (and it's possible there is foundation earthing or similar in place). Do you know when they were built?

The main issue of concern with your reading would be to ensure that it is a suitable earth rod or equivalent and not provided via copper water piping or similar. That should have been checked at the time of an EICR, though it can be difficult if there is common piping.

Even if the DNO couldn't provide a PME supply at the time, they may be able to now - though it can get complicated with flats as sometimes the building management has responsibility for internal stuff and not the DNO.

If you don't already, you will want to be checking your RCDs work by pressing the test button very 6 months to ensure they are still in working order.

If you can provide a picture of your consumer unit and your main fuse head/meter, it may be clearer, depending on how things are wired....

Hi
TN-S built 1960
The flat is rented out and is good condition all the proper lamps in the bathroom
I will check the RCD tomorrow
It said earth onto copper pipes

 

[Garyburger]

Hi
TN-S built 1960
The flat is rented out and is good condition all the proper lamps in the bathroom
I will check the RCD tomorrow
It said earth onto copper pipes

Hi
TN-S built 1960
The flat is rented out and is good condition all the proper lamps in the bathroom
I will check the RCD tomorrow
It said earth onto copper pipes

I did get the EICR

 

[Garyburger]

I did get the EICR

I have just been told by UKPN to get a TT system
As a new connection would be so expensive

 

[Garyburger]

I have just been told by UKPN to get a TT system
As a new connection would be so expensive

 

[DefyG]

I did get the EICR

Presumably 'Unsatisfactory' if the main earth connection is dubious?

 

[mainline]

I have just been told by UKPN to get a TT system
As a new connection would be so expensive

But now seriously
I thought that it was common for letting agents etc to only accept approved contractor status eicr, so do domestic installers just print their own or nip down to tool station.

 

[UNG]

But now seriously
I thought that it was common for letting agents etc to only accept approved contractor status eicr, so do domestic installers just print their own or nip down to tool station.

And a lot of those aren't worth the paper they are written / printed on
How does anyone lower their standards to get into these schemes

 

[ipf]

But now seriously
I thought that it was common for letting agents etc to only accept approved contractor status eicr, so do domestic installers just print their own or nip down to tool station.

It may be common but, let's face it AC, DI or cheapo down the pub, when talking EICR the most important word involved is COMPETENT (whether they are or not).
Are NIC insisting on AC's or not? Either way, it's not a legality.

I've been on about it for two decades, on here for the last one.
Started with PAT, on to domestic, then commercial and even industrial.
We see, in life and on this forum, an idea of just how rife is the rot. ....totally letting down and devaluing genuinely competent tradesmen.
It's a total disgrace from top to bottom....Part Pee stinks.

 

[Mike Johnson]

This happens in all technicians trades, if there is no official Government/Institute/association recognised qualifications to carry out a trade then there will be people who will take advantage, not really a surprise .

 

[ipf]

It does. A great deal of my early NICEIC work was contracting for local authorities.
Regular C of W was the rule. Now it's leave 'em to it. I watched it get worse in the 2000's when blokes supposedly in charge were coming to me for advice.

When I was a teenager, 'budget cutting' was a short back and sides.

 

[Mike Johnson]

COW now that brings back memories, as does RE and RA on larger projects. (anyone remember what they where?)

If the local authorities insisted on a Qualification from a certifying body, this could all change, but the body would need legislating and assent by the Secretary of State to make it viable and not some fly by night organisation made up over a beer mat by a couple of blokes cashing in on the possible legislation.

Now lets think of a name for the body, suggestions on a postcard please.

 

[Midwest]

I don't think its a failure of the system, nor the bodies employed for the system, its more to do with the honesty of the individuals carrying out work.

I would argue that the vast percentage of members on this forum are honest individuals, who would only ever carry out accurate reliable works. Are they representative of all electricians, I doubt it.

Honesty has a sliding scale though. If one found a wallet in the street, filled with credit cards & cash. I would like to think most, would take steps to return the item to the owner. If one found a £20 note under an ATM, would you hand it into the bank.

 

[ipf]

COW now that brings back memories, as does RE and RA on larger projects. (anyone remember what they where?)

Registered is the key word, of course.

Maybe these days it's just stick to R Electrician.
It always has been R Archangel........coz only god can 'lay a finger' on the architect.

 

[UNG]

If one found a £20 note under an ATM, would you hand it into the bank.

At the rate banks are closing branches it might be difficult to hand it in

A few years ago I found a £10 note on the floor in one of the aisles of a supermarket I handed it in to the customer service desk who seemed totally disinterested, I often wonder was it reclaimed or just went in someones pocket

 

[Pretty Mouth]

If one found a wallet in the street, filled with credit cards & cash. I would like to think most, would take steps to return the item to the owner. If one found a £20 note under an ATM, would you hand it into the bank.

The former is very easy to prove who the rightful owner is. The latter, nearly impossible. May as well go in your own pocket rather than the bank's

 

[Midwest]

May as well go in your own pocket rather than the bank's

You've just committed theft by finding. Told you honesty had a sliding scale