1950s IM Power Relay Timer Help for Solenoid Valves

[murd_the_nerd]

Hi there

Complete novice electrical wise. I am refurbishing an old 1950s Injection Moulding machine and looking to replace the Power Timer Relays. So far with no success myself and two attempts. It appears I need some expert help. I would love direction on the type of timer I need and a link to where I could purchase is a bonus. Any help much appreciated. Details below:

The old Timers:

What I've investigated:

• There are 2x Timers, one for inject and one for clamp
• They are both the same, because I can swap them around and it still runs just fine
• Markings still remaining on one says Supply 230 V AC and Rating 6A 230 V AC. There is no cut down in power on this machine, 240V throughout.
• They appear to be short-circuit driven (not power on all the time and Start commands etc)
• Power is only supplied when they run and is instantly straight through to the output
• 11 pin circular configuration
• Phase to pin 2, Neutral to pin 10
• Power into pin 5 and 2 makes the output run forever until short-circuited. I think I've heard this called an Inhibit function which allows the Timer to pause and force power through pin 6. In the clamp instance this forces the clamp closed, lets the inject sequence run, and then allows the Timer to run before cutting power and releasing the clamp.
• Pin 6 is the only output. This runs to the 5/2 solenoid valves and changes the valve position for either inject or clamp
• Timer appears to be a Power Off Delay or similar as it only tells it when to cut power off

Diagrams that I've mapped to help explain how the Timers work and current wiring:

If you need any more info I'm happy to provide. And even if you are just interested in the machine I can post pictures of that also

Thanks
Murdoch

 

[marconi]

Just a quick question - did you select the correct timer operation mode - interval on or mode I?

 

[murd_the_nerd]

Just a quick question - did you select the correct timer operation mode - interval on or mode I?

Yep, I selected I (interval). It never got to using the timers though. So more a wiring or sequence issue I think

 

[marconi]

With power off and referring to any pictures of the relay wiring before you swapped for new ones just check you have moved the red wires to the new bases so they act as relay power or output contacts as necessary.

What do the top left and right lights do?

 

[marconi]

Hi Marconi. I finally had a chance to wire in the new timers today I was in a bit of a rush and may have got the + & - the wrong way around. The heater wouldn't start so there is an issue. I either need to force the sequence change on the machine or the wiring is not letting it turn on. There is a relay in series with the two timers (- black wires) that allows the heater to start. I ran out of time to trouble fix.

I would appreciate if you could let me know whether switching the + & - between timer pins 2 and 7 would change anything? It seems just for DC it is wired the other way. Everything else appears fine at first glance...

New wiring:
View attachment 97046

New vs Old timers:
View attachment 97047

Timers and relay wiring new vs old:
View attachment 97048

Wiring diagram from the timer manual:
View attachment 97049

It is only for dc supply you need to connect plus and minus as in the wiring diagram.

 

[Vortigern]

Just a quick note to acknowledge your input here @marconi. Above and beyond the call of duty there!

 

[murd_the_nerd]

Thanks for confirming the +/- only being an issue for DC. No lights or anything on the timers because without the heater relay working the sequence won't even start. And power is only supplied at the time.

Hmm maybe a stuck sensor or something not to do with the timers at all. I will investigate in the coming weeks and hopefully have some good news!

 

[murd_the_nerd]

@marconi we have victory!

Turns out the new wiring of the timers was perfect. And the issue was with the heater relay itself. I found a loose wire, fixed that and then all worked perfectly. I don't think I can post a video on here so I've just snapshotted a picture here with the Clamp timer running and output live in interval mode. I can now see the indicator lights on and off during the sequence which is an added bonus with the new timers.

Thank you soo much for your help. I wouldn't have made it without you! How lucky this forum is (and me) to have you offer your expertise to problems like this

 

[marconi]

Thank you for the update and nice comment. Would you mind taking a video using your phone and then converting it to MP4 format - there are free converters on-line - and then attach it as a file - see below - for us to see the machine in action please.

Remember there is also the check of earthing and state of cabling to be done and any other mechanical aspects to confirm as safe.

 

[murd_the_nerd]

It certainly isn't safe just yet... But functional which is a big improvement.

Sure I'll try upload videos of the cabinet and machine

 

[murd_the_nerd]

This is showing the timers and sequence

 

[murd_the_nerd]

This is showing the clamp and inject into a mould that the timers control

 

[murd_the_nerd]

I also took a look inside one of the old timers which you might find interesting. I was just confused...

 

[marconi]

Thank you. Interesting to see the older technology inside the timer which has worked for an impressively long time since it was first made in the 1950s.

Regards

Marconi

 

[murd_the_nerd]

Yeah the whole machine is impressive that it still runs after all these years!

Thanks again for all your help

 

[Lucien Nunes]

My thanks to Marconi too, this is often the sort of thread that I get deeply stuck into but having been ill I haven't been around much, so I am pleased he was able to help in detail.

The original timer is interesting but not 1950s. The components suggest early late 60s / early 70s. The active guts including probably a couple of transistors are inside the flat grey module between the power transformer and the relay. The transformer powers the module and relay coil via the red BY123 bridge rectifier and smoothing capacitor (the smaller of the two electrolytics). The RC timing circuit probably comprises the 100μF electrolytic, the control pot, the 2.2kΩ resistor and the full-scale setting preset. The set of relay contacts nearest the module are tied into the timing circuit, I can't see in what way, either to provide hysteresis or a discharge path.

If the Japanese-made Rubycon electrolytic is original it is a hint at the location where the timer was assembled. The other electrolytic, 2.2kΩ resistor and possibly the rectifier are Philips parts made in the Netherlands. It's unusual to see Asian and European capacitors side-by-side in the same device in Asia or Europe, but much more likely that a manufacturer in NZ or Aus would buy parts from both continents as suited their requirements. I wonder who made the grey module? Any ID on it?

 

[murd_the_nerd]

That probably makes sense. The machine is from England. Though one timer had a marking being manufactured in Auckland NZ. So likely the original English timers were replaced a decade or two later in NZ. And now more decades on 2022 (or year manufactured) replaced timers

Sounds like you are very knowledgeable in this area Lucien!