In defence of the short course trainee

[davesparks]

When did you last hear of anyone being killed by a part "P" sparky?

I hope you aren't suggesting we wait for one of them to murder an innocent person before something gets done about it!

Many of us have seen work carried out by 'domestic installers' which had left innocent peoples lives in danger. If they had been gas installations left in that condition rather than electrical then the perpetrators would have been off to prison in double quick time!

 

[sparksburnout]

So what about other jobs?
You cannot legally call yourself a hairdresser without a certain set of qualifications and experience. You cannot legally call yourself a solicitor without a certain set of qualifications and experience
A hairdresser with more legal status than us. If we screw up seriously, people die?
The Royal Academy Of Dance has a greater qualification requirement for it's teachers than the NIC do for DIs.
When did you last hear of anyone being killed at a dance class?

I'm not sure where this is going. My daughter is a hairdresser, she's 25, and has done all the NVQ's under the sun, but she's not what you would call "experienced", cos she's 25. However, she is doing a bloody good job and has more work than she can handle at times, cos she's good. Anyone can call themselves a hairdresser, you don't have to have the qualifications, or be a member of any professional body, you just have to know what you are about. So can she not call herself a hairdresser??? If she did your missus hair you would be amazed, but she ain't got 20 years of experience??? It does NOT always follow that having miles on the clock automatically means that you are good at what you claim to do. Some people are good at some things, some are not. No one has a god given right to anything.

 

[trev]

I'm not saying your daughter isn't good at what she does, what I am saying is that in order for her to gain membership of a professional body and legally call herself a hairdresser there are requirements which are protected in law. Check it out, I guarantee you'll be surprised.

Nor am I saying that anyone has a god given right to anything. What I am saying is that when you're messing with something that can and does kill people then you need to have a bit more than the bloody 17th edition.

 

[sparksburnout]

I hope you aren't suggesting we wait for one of them to murder an innocent person before something gets done about it!

Many of us have seen work carried out by 'domestic installers' which had left innocent peoples lives in danger. If they had been gas installations left in that condition rather than electrical then the perpetrators would have been off to prison in double quick time!

of course i am not. I have no idea how many times these guys leave things in a lethal condition, and if they do they need marching out of the industry, as you say, in double quick time. But it wouldn't be murder. The guilty ones would be the government appointed bodies for not making sure they were competent enough not to leave work in a dangerous condition. Why do these bodies not do spot checks on their members work and boot them out if they are sub-standard. Oooops I answer my own question, its all down to bean-counters again, they are the real guilty ones.

 

[john25]

I am more amazed that the Goverment Demands that we need to be Part P registered or in a scam..sry scheme or have to Notify the LABC when doing certain types of Sparky work in Domestic environment but will happily let companies offer 5 week "Boil in the Bag" courses where they can Brainwash ..sorry train people into thinking that after only 5 weeks training they are somehow competent to be let loose in peoples homes

this isn't a Sleight on anyone who has went the "Boil in the bag" route just an observation that's all.

 

[Knobhead]

I do have the right to call myself an electrician. It is stated on my indentures, signed, sealed and delivered. It’s similarly stated on the statutory instrument I hold, issued by the secretary of state. What does it say on yours?

I’ll help anyone, but I’m not going to assist in the degradation of the industry by giving credence to lowering standards.

 

[Badged01]

Many of us have seen work carried out by 'domestic installers' which had left innocent peoples lives in danger.

And dont forget some of the dangerous work carried out by industrial/commercial electricians dabbling in houses! There needs to be something across the board full-stop. Part 'P' has started the ball rolling in some respects but no-one out there is really monitoring whats going on and taking action against those responsible, be they time served or short course trained .....

 

[sparksburnout]

I'm not saying your daughter isn't good at what she does, what I am saying is that in order for her to gain membership of a professional body and legally call herself a hairdresser there are requirements which are protected in law. Check it out, I guarantee you'll be surprised.

Nor am I saying that anyone has a god given right to anything. What I am saying is that when you're messing with something that can and does kill people then you need to have a bit more than the bloody 17th edition.

Yes!! of course you do. It's bloody unbelievable that someone with no previous experience can gain membership of one of the bodies with just the 17th ed course - do they actually do it?? Are there actually people operating with only that and nothing else??? I can't imagine how they can even have the b*****s to pitch up at some member of the public's gaff and actually go through the motions. When I did my NAPIT assessment, ok it wasn't much of a test, but the guy did ask me quite a lot about I&T, if someone had only done the 17th ed, I can't see how he would have passed it???? Do they just recommend you "brush up" on stuff??

 

[trev]

Yes!! of course you do. It's bloody unbelievable that someone with no previous experience can gain membership of one of the bodies with just the 17th ed course - do they actually do it?? Are there actually people operating with only that and nothing else??? I can't imagine how they can even have the b*****s to pitch up at some member of the public's gaff and actually go through the motions. When I did my NAPIT assessment, ok it wasn't much of a test, but the guy did ask me quite a lot about I&T, if someone had only done the 17th ed, I can't see how he would have passed it???? Do they just recommend you "brush up" on stuff??

I met the guy from Elecsa a few months back at a mate's assessment day. Nice bloke but he's using the assessments to sell courses that his business is operating. So yes they do just recommend that numpties brush up on a few things and that's what is so disgraceful about the whole set up.
They'll happily badge someone as competent but on the condition that they sign up for another course. Meanwhile the numpty who needs more guidance is out there practicing in people's homes. Unsupervised.

 

[sparksburnout]

I met the guy from Elecsa a few months back at a mate's assessment day. Nice bloke but he's using the assessments to sell courses that his business is operating. So yes they do just recommend that numpties brush up on a few things and that's what is so disgraceful about the whole set up.
They'll happily badge someone as competent but on the condition that they sign up for another course. Meanwhile the numpty who needs more guidance is out there practicing in people's homes. Unsupervised.

I am shocked. The guy that did my assessment was a "proper" blokes bloke, from up north annaul (ann-all?, how do you spell it?) He gave me the impression that he would not be impressed with bull**** or lack of knowledge. He went over my work in detail, and asked me loads of questions based around I&T, as well as watching me do some testing. I can't imagine he would have passed me if I had not been on the ball. Maybe he would? Personally, if that had been the case, I would not have dared carry on, maybe that's just me. If they are passing guys who shouldn't even pass the assessment, then that is a disgrace, and I am beginning to see where you are coming from.

 

[davesparks]

my initial enrolement with elecsa was a joke!

on the paperwork side he asked to see my qualifications and i passed him a stack of all the C+G and apprenticeship documents I have got, with the 17th edition 238... one at the bottom of the pile. He shuffled through them until he found the 17th edition one and carefully inspected it and wrote down the numbers etc on his form! Needless to say we got off on the wrong foot and things just went downhill from there.

I passed the assessment but by the time we finished he was really scraping the barrel for things to pull me up on!

 

[Engineer54]

Whatever, you carry on winding yourself up and I'll carry on earning a living and enjoying doing so. Guess what, there's far more to life than the electrical industry, most of it of far greater importance.

As for the doom you so enjoy predicting for the industry and everyone in it, I very much doubt it will happen. Obviously that won't stop you and others running around like Henny Penny, but that's up to you. Just supposing it does all crumble, I won't be on a forum crying about it. I'll do something else to earn a living and carry on enjoying life.

I really can't see the upside to spending life stressing over how you or anyone else earns a living. I do my job to the best of my ability, I get paid and the world turns.

I've no idea where you get this impression that i'm winding myself up or running around like Henry Penny, i can assure you i don't do either. Thankfully i'm out of the UK situation, and coming very close to the end of my career....

But that doesn't stop me having strong opinions and convictions on what's going on back in the UK. One thing i've never been, is someone that has just sat back in the armchair and let things pass over my head. Over the years i've had a few set-two's with different organisations, including my own professional institutions, on the whole quite successfully too....

My point being, if you can't be arse'd to even try and make a difference, you only have yourself and others like yourself to blame. Mind, if you don't give much of a ---- about your trade and industry in the first place, then i doubt you will now, or in the future either!!

 

[Engineer54]

So what would you do then, throw all the "DI's" as you call them back onto the dole? And excuse me, but I think it is your generation that has left society in the mess that we both agree it is in. These guys are just trying to make a living by the only route they have available to them. Everyone know's they can't do it on a 5 week course, they need help, but they won't get it, will they? And then, like you say, everything will end up with yet another industry in ruins. The way this bunch of public school idiots are running the country, it's enough to make anyone want to leave it, but for me, I will stop here and make the best of it. Whatever you say, de-camping overseas will not help will it? And by the way I am not at all jealous, after having travelled the globe several times with work, I can assure you I have no wish to live anywhere else other than here. You are entitled to your opinion and so am I, if you don't reside here, you play no part. And like someone else has just said, the electrical industry is not the be-all and end-all, we are just sparky's for goodness sake, not brain surgeons. To get back to the roots of this thread, these "part P" guys need helping, not pulling down and criticising. Would any established sparky on here let one of them spend time with him??

Do you mean you are Ex Royal Navy or Merchant Navy??

What do you mean, ...I ''play no part'', because i don't reside in the UK??

The electrical industry my not be the be all and end all, but it was certainly once held in high esteem. So i guess if you are JUST a sparky, you're not worth very much out there in the market place!!!

As i stated when i first left the UK to work overseas, the electrical industry was on a high. There were NO electrical trainee's, no such animals as Domestic Installers, No part Pee providers, No fast track training centre's of any kind, No level 3 C&G qualifications that could be gained in a couple of days, being a member of NICEIC and /or other similar organisations, was purely voluntary, No parasitic agencies. Shall i go on??

Tell me, how can you help a guy that has had just 17 days to 5 weeks of training. You can't help those that don't even know the fundamentals, now can you. Besides why would anyone that has had to complete 4 or more years as an apprentice doing things correctly earning less money than ALL his mates, think they should help these back door wannabees??

 

[sparksburnout]

Do you mean you are Ex Royal Navy or Merchant Navy??

What do you mean, ...I ''play no part'', because i don't reside in the UK??

The electrical industry my not be the be all and end all, but it was certainly once held in high esteem. So i guess if you are JUST a sparky, you're not worth very much out there in the market place!!!

As i stated when i first left the UK to work overseas, the electrical industry was on a high. There were NO electrical trainee's, no such animals as Domestic Installers, No part Pee providers, No fast track training centre's of any kind, No level 3 C&G qualifications that could be gained in a couple of days, being a member of NICEIC and /or other similar organisations, was purely voluntary, No parasitic agencies. Shall i go on??

Tell me, how can you help a guy that has had just 17 days to 5 weeks of training. You can't help those that don't even know the fundamentals, now can you. Besides why would anyone that has had to complete 4 or more years as an apprentice doing things correctly earning less money than ALL his mates, think they should help these back door wannabees??

I think someone else mentioned you seem to a rather angry type of guy, and to be honest from the comments in your last post I can see why. For a start, no, I wasn't in the forces, are these the only guy's who can have a job where overseas travel is involved? or are you intimating that some of the Electrical Trainee are ex-servicemen who are trying to begin a new job as an electrician and shouldn't be because they are just wannabee's? As I have stated before some of these guys, who you seem to think are just a bit lower than a snake's ***, are not useless idiots and given the correct training could quite easily become competent. Yes, some of them might be hopeless cases, but some would be quite capable. I think you have a rather over-inflated opinion of both yourself and the industry to be honest, and I find some of your comments, particularly the "the likes of you" one offensive. I merely stated that anyone who takes themselves off out of the country, doesn't pay tax into HMRC, doesn't contribute in any other beneficial way to anything including his industry, has no right to either influence things here or moan about it, just my opinion. I came into this industry late, and know I do not have the experience and high level competence of some of you guys that would enable me to train anyone else, but if I was in that position, I would be going out of my way to take on an apprentice of any age, to try and help him, not slagging him off at every opportunity. Oh and bye the way, how do you gain a level 3 C&G in a couple of days??

 

[GMES]

I think someone else mentioned you seem to a rather angry type of guy, and to be honest from the comments in your last post I can see why. For a start, no, I wasn't in the forces, are these the only guy's who can have a job where overseas travel is involved? or are you intimating that some of the Electrical Trainee are ex-servicemen who are trying to begin a new job as an electrician and shouldn't be because they are just wannabee's? As I have stated before some of these guys, who you seem to think are just a bit lower than a snake's ***, are not useless idiots and given the correct training could quite easily become competent. Yes, some of them might be hopeless cases, but some would be quite capable. I think you have a rather over-inflated opinion of both yourself and the industry to be honest, and I find some of your comments, particularly the "the likes of you" one offensive. I merely stated that anyone who takes themselves off out of the country, doesn't pay tax into HMRC, doesn't contribute in any other beneficial way to anything including his industry, has no right to either influence things here or moan about it, just my opinion. I came into this industry late, and know I do not have the experience and high level competence of some of you guys that would enable me to train anyone else, but if I was in that position, I would be going out of my way to take on an apprentice of any age, to try and help him, not slagging him off at every opportunity. Oh and bye the way, how do you gain a level 3 C&G in a couple of days??

Right Sparksburnout i like a debate as much as the next man, but you are missing the point. Take a look at what i have highlighted in bold font from your post!.
Nobody is saying that they won't eventually be some good, what I am saying is at the moment they are not very good, you say in time they will be competent, but what enrages me is they are chargeing unsuspecting members of the public into thinking they are competent now and they simply are not. Most of them admit they are not competent or qualified yet they still persist in trying to fool their customers.
I would not have a problem with anyone who went on a 5 week course and then went on the books with a firm or who got themselve's a Mentor.
You say the guy's themselves aren't to blame, but to a degree they are, if they do a course then get told to go self employed, surely they have the intelligence to realise they are not ready. And if they don't realise this then in my opinion they are more dangerous than i originally thought.

 

[imago]

Honestly gents, there are far too many chips on too many shoulders. If you take out the annoyance and biting pretty much everyone wants the same thing. Decent tradesmen, doing a good well thought out job, using quality materials and ensuring that whatever they're working on is safer when they leave as a result. The mere fact that people are posting in this thread is an indication of their intent to do well surely?

It's not that I don't care about the trade, and I most certainly do care about the work I do. It's simply that I don't think it does any good ripping into folks on a forum for things which are entirely beyond their control.

Training, apprenticeships, trade skills and experience are no longer what they were. That's not just restricted to the electrical industry either. Take a look on a plastering forum to choose one other. There are the same issues there where you have time served blokes who have years of experience across the discipline (gypsum skim, lime, polished, render, screed, fibrous etc etc). They are up in arms about people doing a short course then going into houses and making a mess because all the experience they have is a week in a booth skimming boards.

The days of long apprenticeships covering all aspects of a trade are gone. It's a shame, not ideal, but that's the way it is. The electrical industry has been broken down into sections, and there is absolutely no way back from that. A plant manager doesn't give a stuff if you are familiar with finding a borrowed neutral on a landing, he wants the conveyor working now. Mrs Jones couldn't care less whether you can run galv conduit through a factory and fault find in a panle the size of a bus, she wants here shower to work. Neither the plant manager nor Mrs Jones wants to pay extra for someone who can do both.

Supply and demand, it's the way the world works. If customers demand apprentice trained electricians who can work on industrial, commercial and domestic then they will be created as it makes financial sense. They don't, so it doesn't.

So it's not that I don't care, simply that I have more important things to deal with in life than arguing over who should shut the stable door now that the horse is ten miles down the road.

I also don't like the idea of all the keyboard warrior talk that goes on in these threads. I can absolutely guarantee that if people spoke to one another face to face on site like they do on here there'd be blood and snot flying.

 

[GMES]

Imago answer me one question please and then i will leave it alone.
Do you honestly think a guy with no prior knowledge should be allowed to attend a 5 week course and then immediately be allowed to go self employed and charge the public for this.
No Debate just a simple Yes or No answer.

 

[imago]

No.

One simple question from me then for a yes or no answer.

Do you think that's it's fair to describe or imply that everyone who has completed a short course is incompetent or inexperienced?

 

[GMES]

No.

One simple question from me then for a yes or no answer.

Do you think that's it's fair to describe or imply that everyone who has completed a short course is incompetent or inexperienced?

Yes to the inexperienced, how can they be experienced after 5weeks

 

[Engineer54]

No.

One simple question from me then for a yes or no answer.

Do you think that's it's fair to describe or imply that everyone who has completed a short course is incompetent or inexperienced?

Absolutly ....Incompetent AND inexperienced!!