In defence of the short course trainee

[imago]

You're assuming that's all they've done, which isn't true for some. Equally there's no guarantee that everyone who served an apprenticeship and has been in the trade for years is any good at their job. I can think of a few apprentice trained sparkies who've spent the following 20 - 30 years being cr4p.

One in particular who served his time and worked for the first fifteen years afterwards as a maintenance electrician for Land Rover. He doesn't give a ----, work's rough, no idea or interest in anything to do with standards or part 'P'. But he ticks all the old school boxes, has a JIB card and a nice shiny van bought with redundancy money. I'd take a five week wonder over that muppet any time.

So the idea that all Electrical Trainee are dangerous inexperienced chancers, and all apprentice trained experienced electricians are good at their job is cobblers. Not that either 'side' in the argument will let facts get in the way of hysteria, sweeping generalisations and personal attacks.

 

[Knobhead]

And dont forget some of the dangerous work carried out by industrial/commercial electricians dabbling in houses! There needs to be something across the board full-stop. Part 'P' has started the ball rolling in some respects but no-one out there is really monitoring whats going on and taking action against those responsible, be they time served or short course trained .....

Most industrial guys will know the theory and reason for doing something and probably go about things in a logical manner, not monkey see, monkey do.

I have great respect for properly qualified electricians who choose the domestic side, it’s not something I enjoy and have avoided.

I have absolutely no respect for the Domestic Installer. Who, after five weeks thinks he is legitimately entitled to practice* on unsuspecting householders and be paid.


* OED Definition of practice:

Mass noun:
The actual application or use of an idea, belief, or method, as opposed to theories relating to it.

Synonyms:
1. Repeated exercise in or performance of an activity or skill so as to acquire proficiency in it.
2. Training, rehearsal, repetition, preparation, exercise, drill, study; practice session, dummy run, run-through, try-out, warm-up, [informal] dry run.

Count noun:
A period of time spent practising (learning) an activity or skill.

 

[GMES]

I have had a think about the incompetent part and i have got to say that is a yes also, let me explain my reason.
A person who has no prior knowledge, cannot, in my opinion be competent after 5 weeks.
I don't personally like the term incompetent but it does have a rightful meaning it is not a derogatory term it is a true fact, in the same way as if i did a 5 week course in neurology i would not be competent in performing brain surgery however i may just about be able to open someone's head in a rough way.
I have always stood by the fact that most people can get a light or socket to work, but if they are not competent and experienced how can they know ifwhat they have done is safe, that is the part that scares the crap out of me.
Ps one final point Regarding Engineer54, he is not aggressive, nor does he have a chip on his shoulder and if you think that then you have misjudged him. Take the time to read back through the many thousands of post he has been involved with , then you may begain to understand and respect the Guy.

 

[GMES]

Most industrial guys will know the theory and reason for doing something and probably go about things in a logical manner, not monkey see, monkey do.

I have great respect for properly qualified electricians who choose the domestic side, it’s not something I enjoy and have avoided.

I have absolutely no respect for the Domestic Installer. Who, after five weeks thinks he is legitimately entitled to practice* on unsuspecting householders and be paid.


* OED Definition of practice:

Mass noun:
The actual application or use of an idea, belief, or method, as opposed to theories relating to it.

Synonyms:
1. Repeated exercise in or performance of an activity or skill so as to acquire proficiency in it.
2. Training, rehearsal, repetition, preparation, exercise, drill, study; practice session, dummy run, run-through, try-out, warm-up, [informal] dry run.

Count noun:
A period of time spent practising (learning) an activity or skill.

Bloody hell Tony, you make the rest of us look stupid. i wish i could put a post like that together.

 

[imago]

Ps one final point Regarding Engineer54, he is not aggressive, nor does he have a chip on his shoulder and if you think that then you have misjudged him. Take the time to read back through the many thousands of post he has been involved with , then you may begain to understand and respect the Guy.

"Physician heal thyself" I think that there are quite a few that might benefit from reading back through posts!

Anyway, this 37 page merry go round is unlikely to get resolved. I have my opinions, you have yours, and so does everyone else. Fortunately that's all they are opinions, and ultimately make no difference whatsoever to the situation or anyone's working life.

Enjoy your weekend Gents.

 

[southsea1201]

Too much of the evidence against Electrical Trainee is anecdotal. When was the last fire or fatality caused by a Electrical Trainee. I have had the pleasure of working with 2 ex-navy guys in my city. Both Electrical Trainee's. Both of them conscientous, both of them incredibly neat and fully understanding the requirements of the regs. Coming from technical backgrounds made it a breeze for them to grasps the principles of BS7671.
It doesn't make sense to tar all with the same brush. I have done work at installations originally carried out by a huge contracting firm and their work was 100% shoddy, so there is no way generalisations carry any weight with me.

 

[Engineer54]

Honestly gents, there are far too many chips on too many shoulders. If you take out the annoyance and biting pretty much everyone wants the same thing. Decent tradesmen, doing a good well thought out job, using quality materials and ensuring that whatever they're working on is safer when they leave as a result. The mere fact that people are posting in this thread is an indication of their intent to do well surely?

It's not that I don't care about the trade, and I most certainly do care about the work I do. It's simply that I don't think it does any good ripping into folks on a forum for things which are entirely beyond their control.

Training, apprenticeships, trade skills and experience are no longer what they were. That's not just restricted to the electrical industry either. Take a look on a plastering forum to choose one other. There are the same issues there where you have time served blokes who have years of experience across the discipline (gypsum skim, lime, polished, render, screed, fibrous etc etc). They are up in arms about people doing a short course then going into houses and making a mess because all the experience they have is a week in a booth skimming boards.

The days of long apprenticeships covering all aspects of a trade are gone. It's a shame, not ideal, but that's the way it is. The electrical industry has been broken down into sections, and there is absolutely no way back from that. A plant manager doesn't give a stuff if you are familiar with finding a borrowed neutral on a landing, he wants the conveyor working now. Mrs Jones couldn't care less whether you can run galv conduit through a factory and fault find in a panle the size of a bus, she wants here shower to work. Neither the plant manager nor Mrs Jones wants to pay extra for someone who can do both.

Supply and demand, it's the way the world works. If customers demand apprentice trained electricians who can work on industrial, commercial and domestic then they will be created as it makes financial sense. They don't, so it doesn't.

So it's not that I don't care, simply that I have more important things to deal with in life than arguing over who should shut the stable door now that the horse is ten miles down the road.

I also don't like the idea of all the keyboard warrior talk that goes on in these threads. I can absolutely guarantee that if people spoke to one another face to face on site like they do on here there'd be blood and snot flying.

For all your rhetoric ...how come, is it that in the rest of Europe, Apprentice type training at Trade and Engineering colleges is still very much the norm, in fact the only way to become qualified?? No such thing at 5 week Trade courses for ANY trade, least of all for the electrical trade... So if they can manage to keep tried and proven standards for there tradesmen, why is it so difficult for the UK?? ....And i'm really talking about England and Wales, as Scotland doesn't seem to recognise the 17 day/electrical trainee DI's up there!! The horse hasn't bolted far enough away to bring it back under control....

De skilling will hurt everyone in the industry, and if you can't see why that is, you really need to open you're eyes and see what's going on under you're very nose. lest to say, if you keep allowing every tom and dick parasite organisation free reign in your industry, it ain't gonna be too long before you will treated as, and paid little more than a semi skilled tradesman. Not that there will be many fully qualified and experienced electricians around in 20/30 years, they will all be 5 week wonder's!! lol!!

As for the keyboard warrior talk, .....well i think you may be more than a little surprised if you think that it would be definitely my snot and blood that's flying around!!

 

[sparksburnout]

You're assuming that's all they've done, which isn't true for some. Equally there's no guarantee that everyone who served an apprenticeship and has been in the trade for years is any good at their job. I can think of a few apprentice trained sparkies who've spent the following 20 - 30 years being cr4p.

One in particular who served his time and worked for the first fifteen years afterwards as a maintenance electrician for Land Rover. He doesn't give a ----, work's rough, no idea or interest in anything to do with standards or part 'P'. But he ticks all the old school boxes, has a JIB card and a nice shiny van bought with redundancy money. I'd take a five week wonder over that muppet any time.

So the idea that all Electrical Trainee are dangerous inexperienced chancers, and all apprentice trained experienced electricians are good at their job is cobblers. Not that either 'side' in the argument will let facts get in the way of hysteria, sweeping generalisations and personal attacks.

This is the most sensible post anyone has put together on here, probably including mine, so I am going to leave it now, with a few statements on the lines of Imago's
1. It is obvious that someone with no prior experience or aptitude, cannot do a 5 week course and be any good, and probably dangerous.
2. There are some guys, with prior experience and aptitude, who could become decent electricians, particularly (in my opinion) if they are only going to work in the relatively restrictive area of domestic. I'm not saying its not very tricky at times, but it's not as complex as many industrial situations.
3. For a guy that has just been booted out of his job and wants to get into another field of work, there is no other option, other than claim benefit. At least they are trying.
4. The "scams" as they are called are a good idea basically, they are obviously being administered wrongly. They should not accept anyone without decent qualifications, and those without should go to college off their own bat and get them first. I have worked around electrical installations for many years and think I have a good general understanding and practical experience, and could have quite easily got into one of the scams, but I wanted to do it as properly as I could and went back to college, at 55.
5. If a guy does not pass his "scam" assessment with flying colours, he SHOULD NOT be allowed to work anywhere. The idea that these bodies just give recommendations to "brush up a bit" is outrageous. Personally if it happened to me I would be too ashamed and worried to even consider going any further.
6. There are plenty of "dyed in the wool" "sparky's" who, as Imago so rightly said, are cr%p. I have met some at college and their lack of understanding is frightening. My mate works with a bloke who has spent 15 years house bashing for an established firm - he knows to "chuck a bit of 6 milly in" for a cooker, but he has not got the first idea why it's 6 and not 2.5!
7. If we go by ENG54 recommendations, there will be no sparkies left at all soon. Of course the best way is an apprentice who has then gone on to work with experienced guys and learned on the job, but that just does not happen any more, because we apparently can't afford it, as a country. The apprentice schemes that this lot running the country provide now are a joke, and just cheap labour half the time. We can't just throw all the Part P guys onto the dole, and before there was part P, back in the "golden days" loads of people used to do their own wiring and be even more dangerous. What we need is part P run on a proper basis.

 

[Engineer54]

You're assuming that's all they've done, which isn't true for some. Equally there's no guarantee that everyone who served an apprenticeship and has been in the trade for years is any good at their job. I can think of a few apprentice trained sparkies who've spent the following 20 - 30 years being cr4p.

One in particular who served his time and worked for the first fifteen years afterwards as a maintenance electrician for Land Rover. He doesn't give a ----, work's rough, no idea or interest in anything to do with standards or part 'P'. But he ticks all the old school boxes, has a JIB card and a nice shiny van bought with redundancy money. I'd take a five week wonder over that muppet any time.

So the idea that all Electrical Trainee are dangerous inexperienced chancers, and all apprentice trained experienced electricians are good at their job is cobblers. Not that either 'side' in the argument will let facts get in the way of hysteria, sweeping generalisations and personal attacks.

If they needed to go on a 5 week course in the first place, and that's the only qualifications they hold, then no matter what way you want to look at it, they will be both incompetent and inexperienced.... I've heard that old fall-back, about rough time-served electricians so many times now. Yes i quite agree with you, but then there has ''Always'' been the rough and ready element in every trade. The difference being, that the rough time served electrician will know full well he's rough, whereas you can't say the same for the fast track wannabee....

The main fact remains, there are now literary thousands upon thousands of under qualified, under trained, under skilled, incompetent an inexperienced wannabe electricians out there working in unsuspecting customers/clients homes and businesses, that should never have been allowed in the workplace in the first place....

By the very fact that these 17 day/Electrical Trainee's have so little training, yes they ARE inexperienced chancers as you put it. There is no hysteria about about it mate, them's as they say, ...are the god's given facts!! ...Err, what personal attacks are you talking about then??

 

[Knobhead]

For god’s sake, someone shoot this thread! It would be a kindness to put it out of its misery! The poor thing has been flogged to the stage it’s on its last legs.

Donkeys on a tread mill have a better life than this! At least they are blindfolded so they don’t know they are going around in circles.

There are a couple of the mods I know are owners of firearms, one of you do the deed. The poor thing will thank you.

 

[GMES]

For god’s sake, someone shoot this thread! It would be a kindness to put it out of its misery! The poor thing has been flogged to the stage it’s on its last legs.

Donkeys on a tread mill have a better life than this! At least they are blindfolded so they don’t know they are going around in circles.

There are a couple of the mods I know are owners of firearms, one of you do the deed. The poor thing will thank you.

Yes Tony that bloody Down2 earth op as got a lot to answer for in post#1, look at the date and is opening line was " with redundancy looming" lol the Git kicked all this off.

 

[imago]

The main fact remains, there are now literary thousands upon thousands of under qualified, under trained, under skilled, incompetent an inexperienced wannabe electricians out there working in unsuspecting customers/clients homes and businesses, that should never have been allowed in the workplace in the first place....

So which government or trade body do you suppose will change that? I can't think of one from either putting an end to small businesses which pay tax and membership fees. Even if you take the view that one would, then to do so would be throwing the baby out with the bath water. Not all are incompetent.

If a person has a background which links in then I think it's perfectly possible to learn sufficient basic information to work as a domestic electrician in five weeks. A huge proportion of an apprenticeship covers basic hand skills such as cutting, filing, making level, fixing types and techniques, pipe bending, accurate measurement, application of basic maths and physics and so on. Many other trades apply exactly the same transferrable skills. I doubt that any straight from school 16 year olds are taking five week courses, most people will have been working for some time. I don't suggest for a moment that someone who has been working in McDonald's or telesales could transfer their skills, but to assume that those are the only people trying to do so would be grossly inaccurate.

Err, what personal attacks are you talking about then??

Have read back through the posts. People are calling one another fools, miserable old gits, incompetent and by inference on a number of occasions, liars. The sort of stuff you'd think was restricted to a primary school playground. That comment and the one covered below weren't aimed at any one person, more the thread in general.

As for the keyboard warrior talk, .....well i think you may be more than a little surprised if you think that it would be definitely my snot and blood that's flying around!!

A somewhat ironic response to something not aimed at you personally. For the record though, I think it's also untrue. I very much doubt that their would be any surprise on either part. I'm sure body and feet positions would give the game away well before the dancing started.

 

[Marvo]

Have read back through the posts.

All 451 of them??........ I'm not convinced

People are calling one another fools, miserable old gits, incompetent and by inference on a number of occasions, liars. The sort of stuff you'd think was restricted to a primary school playground....

I thought you guys loved to argue about the limited scope qualifications

Obviously, as with all the similar threads around the forum this one is going nowhere constructive other than just being a place for everyone to state their opinion which, given the thread is over 450 posts long I assume they already have.

I'm closing this one whilst the going is still good, maybe we can have a weeks break before someone opens the next one that's in a similar vein.