In defence of the short course trainee

[jaypp]

Furthermore, try proper exams that you had to work hard to pass. Not this multiple choice nonsense that seems to be the way now.
5 to 8 weeks?
Kinell man, are you really serious.

I preferred to think of it as 'multiple possible answers'!!
But, yes you're right, a bit of study, a few past papers, and you're there.

 

[trev]

'multiple possible answers'!

2 of which are obviously wrong so if you've half a brain you've got a 50% chance of scoring points.

 

[jaypp]

2 of which are obviously wrong so if you've half a brain you've got a 50% chance of scoring points.

I had almost identical questions in one and the info required to answer something given in a later question! the only official 'exam' I've achieved 100% in was a 'Multiple Possible Answer(multi guess)' module on the 2330. I guessed at least 2 questions and narrowed a couple down too! People fail these, believe it or not Trev.

 

[Badged01]

.... who'd tw@ you you round the back of the head if you made the same mistake twice.

If you feel this past experience has left you emotionally scarred through later life then you can see a "no-win-no-fee" solicitor who can take the appropriate action to correct this injustice you suffered ........

 

[dazza1981]

Really?
Seriously?
Try 4 years of slogging your balls off with a perfectionist older bloke(who to this day I'm grateful for what he taught me) breathing down your neck all the time who'd tw@ you you round the back of the head if you made the same mistake twice.
Try that for 8 hours a day, then having to go to evening classes till 9pm twice a week.

My foreman was exactly the same trev and i used to think he was just being an arse on purpose....looking back now though i realise he is the reason why i breezed threw college and i learnt so much. You did it the proper route trev and stuck at it !!!!

 

[GMES]

Sparksburnout can i suggest you wind your neck in fella. Engineer54 is one of the most respected members here he also does a hell of a lot for other people ( he puts his money where is mouth is )
Also to the mods, we as members have been told and told to be nice and not belittle people yet sb is clearly belittleing ENG with some of his snide comments but seems to get away with it.
How does that work.

 

[Guest112]

This thread is one of the main reasons I barely come on here anymore, I thought this site was for electricians not for domestic installer trade ruining numpties, and like the above said why are we the ones who are policed on here, I've been banned before after an argument with one of the numpties and you mods sided with him. Can't you create a section on this site for all the numpties to congregate a DI section or something and keep them out of the real electrical threads?...

 

[imago]

To be honest, I think people just get too stressed about it as an issue. There's nothing anyone can do to change the current situation. Taking offence, getting personal and busting a blood vessel on the forum won't do anyone any good. Things will never go back to how they once were (with or without rose tinted spectacles) committees will be formed, polices put forward, organisations will be formed and folded.

The sun's out, and it's a long weekend to spend with family doing things that really matter.

 

[Engineer54]

To be honest, I think people just get too stressed about it as an issue. There's nothing anyone can do to change the current situation. Taking offence, getting personal and busting a blood vessel on the forum won't do anyone any good. Things will never go back to how they once were (with or without rose tinted spectacles) committees will be formed, polices put forward, organisations will be formed and folded.

The sun's out, and it's a long weekend to spend with family doing things that really matter.

And this is exactly the sort of attitude that has, and still continues to bring down our electrical industry. Maybe at the moment, nothings affecting you to any real degree, but it ''WILL'' sooner or later. Do you really need to be shafted at every turn, before you're remotely motivated into doing anything for yourself, or as a collective??

 

[imago]

And this is exactly the sort of attitude that has, and still continues to bring down our electrical industry. Maybe at the moment, nothings affecting you to any real degree, but it ''WILL'' sooner or later. Do you really need to be shafted at every turn, before you're remotely motivated into doing anything for yourself, or as a collective??

Whatever, you carry on winding yourself up and I'll carry on earning a living and enjoying doing so. Guess what, there's far more to life than the electrical industry, most of it of far greater importance.

As for the doom you so enjoy predicting for the industry and everyone in it, I very much doubt it will happen. Obviously that won't stop you and others running around like Henny Penny, but that's up to you. Just supposing it does all crumble, I won't be on a forum crying about it. I'll do something else to earn a living and carry on enjoying life.

I really can't see the upside to spending life stressing over how you or anyone else earns a living. I do my job to the best of my ability, I get paid and the world turns.

 

[GMES]

Whatever, you carry on winding yourself up and I'll carry on earning a living and enjoying doing so. Guess what, there's far more to life than the electrical industry, most of it of far greater importance.

As for the doom you so enjoy predicting for the industry and everyone in it, I very much doubt it will happen. Obviously that won't stop you and others running around like Henny Penny, but that's up to you. Just supposing it does all crumble, I won't be on a forum crying about it. I'll do something else to earn a living and carry on enjoying life.

I really can't see the upside to spending life stressing over how you or anyone else earns a living. I do my job to the best of my ability, I get paid and the world turns.

Not wanting to get in the middle of a Domestic here, but i think the thing that upsets Eng and other guys like him, is that he as dedicated is life to the " industry " and seen the way it and it's standards have declined must be soul destroying.
The industry used to be measured on a skillset that took decades to master and you prided yourself on the care and effort you applied to your craft. And now it is saturated by incompetent misguided fools who for themost part are only interested in making as much cash as fast as they can, and do not apply the same level of effort and pride .
Ps i know nothing of you so therfore am not judgeing you as a bad electrician this is just my perception of what the trade as become.

 

[sparksburnout]

I have every right to praise or criticise anything that goes on in the UK or anywhere else in the world come to that. Just the same as i can come and go to the UK as i please. At least if i ever did go back to the UK on a permanent basis, i can assure you i wouldn't be relying on the State to house and feed me!!

Well, actually you would be wrong, i take groups of selected students from a local Engineering College 3 times a fortnight for practical training mainly at the main contractors compound and on the project site....

What cheeses me off are those that can't see any further than the end of their noses!! Especially those that wish that they too were in a position to be able to live overseas in places like France/Spain/Portugal etc... Oh, and why shouldn't these Ex pats (which will be mainly retirees) go back to the UK if they so choose, if and when they are in need of a hip replacement, most if not ALL, would have been paying there NI stamps etc, over there working life, the same as i have. The above just smacks of jealousy on your part....

I see your another one, that thinks it's all down to the older folk to sort out the bloody mess you have allowed to be created. When i left the UK to work overseas, everything was pretty much tickerty boo!!! How about you getting off You're Arse and YOU doing something to sort it out!!

So what would you do then, throw all the "DI's" as you call them back onto the dole? And excuse me, but I think it is your generation that has left society in the mess that we both agree it is in. These guys are just trying to make a living by the only route they have available to them. Everyone know's they can't do it on a 5 week course, they need help, but they won't get it, will they? And then, like you say, everything will end up with yet another industry in ruins. The way this bunch of public school idiots are running the country, it's enough to make anyone want to leave it, but for me, I will stop here and make the best of it. Whatever you say, de-camping overseas will not help will it? And by the way I am not at all jealous, after having travelled the globe several times with work, I can assure you I have no wish to live anywhere else other than here. You are entitled to your opinion and so am I, if you don't reside here, you play no part. And like someone else has just said, the electrical industry is not the be-all and end-all, we are just sparky's for goodness sake, not brain surgeons. To get back to the roots of this thread, these "part P" guys need helping, not pulling down and criticising. Would any established sparky on here let one of them spend time with him??

 

[imago]

Not wanting to get in the middle of a Domestic here, but i think the thing that upsets Eng and other guys like him, is that he as dedicated is life to the " industry " and seen the way it and it's standards have declined must be soul destroying.
The industry used to be measured on a skillset that took decades to master and you prided yourself on the care and effort you applied to your craft. And now it is saturated by incompetent misguided fools who for themost part are only interested in making as much cash as fast as they can, and do not apply the same level of effort and pride .
Ps i know nothing of you so therfore am not judgeing you as a bad electrician this is just my perception of what the trade as become.

I do understand that, and someone with his experience, knowledge and skill within the trade will remain at the top of the game. I also understand that when something that you have dedicated your professional life to is despoiled it cuts deep. I also fully agree that spending a couple of days clipping T&E to a plywood wall doesn't make an electrician.

However, it's important to have some perspective on it. There are lots of things more important in life.

I'm sure I'm not the only one old enough to remember all the other times "the industry is knackered, you mark my words" and similar were said about the electrical industry and many others. '60s and '70s the unions were saying that people who weren't electricians changing lamps was taking jobs away. The pointless strikes and walkouts did that far more efficiently. Crash in the '80s and a massive reduction in apprentice numbers was another death knell apparently. Maggie and Scargill closing the mines caused loads of unemployment. The answer was retraining for redundant miners, some of whom did the 12 week short course and became electricians. Cue the 2end of the electrical industry" nonsense. Some of those short course guys are now experienced electricians of course and no doubt unhappy about people doing short courses and threatening 'their' industry.

Every time there's a major change people say it's the end. Every time without fail they've been wrong.

 

[Knobhead]

So what would you do then, throw all the "DI's" as you call them back onto the dole? And excuse me, but I think it is your generation that has left society in the mess that we both agree it is in. These guys are just trying to make a living by the only route they have available to them. Everyone know's they can't do it on a 5 week course, they need help, but they won't get it, will they? And then, like you say, everything will end up with yet another industry in ruins. The way this bunch of public school idiots are running the country, it's enough to make anyone want to leave it, but for me, I will stop here and make the best of it. Whatever you say, de-camping overseas will not help will it? And by the way I am not at all jealous, after having travelled the globe several times with work, I can assure you I have no wish to live anywhere else other than here. You are entitled to your opinion and so am I, if you don't reside here, you play no part. And like someone else has just said, the electrical industry is not the be-all and end-all, we are just sparky's for goodness sake, not brain surgeons. To get back to the roots of this thread, these "part P" guys need helping, not pulling down and criticising. Would any established sparky on here let one of them spend time with him??

The sooner there are classifications and registration of electricians the better.

Being purely industrial all my working life I’ve not really got involved in domestic, which as you may notice I try to steer clear of. Over the years I’ve only come across one domestic electrician successfully migrate to my side of the industry.

You say being an electrician isn’t brain surgery, maybe its not, some of it is very complex and diverse though. You go to work and it’s not a rewire at No. 7 Acacia Avenue which is just the same as No. 9 Acacia Avenue that you did last week.

You go in to work with a rough idea of what you’re supposed to be doing, not very often it turns out that way. We did try to plan work, it’s amazing how quick proactive becomes reactive as the plant falls apart.

Interviewing candidates for a position the first two things I would ask is can I see your indentures and what experience do you have? Not an unfair thing to ask when letting someone loose on dangerous and very expensive kit. Kit that if broken down is clocking up losses at the rate of £10,000’s per minute.

So if you’re happy to be a domestic installer, that’s up to you. But what happens if you’re asked to work outside your comfort zone? There’s no point going on a forum, no one will have a clue what you’re talking about.

I’ll quote E54 “you can’t defend the indefensible”.

 

[sparksburnout]

The sooner there are classifications and registration of electricians the better.

Being purely industrial all my working life I’ve not really got involved in domestic, which as you may notice I try to steer clear of. Over the years I’ve only come across one domestic electrician successfully migrate to my side of the industry.

You say being an electrician isn’t brain surgery, maybe its not, some of it is very complex and diverse though. You go to work and it’s not a rewire at No. 7 Acacia Avenue which is just the same as No. 9 Acacia Avenue that you did last week.

You go in to work with a rough idea of what you’re supposed to be doing, not very often it turns out that way. We did try to plan work, it’s amazing how quick proactive becomes reactive as the plant falls apart.

Interviewing candidates for a position the first two things I would ask is can I see your indentures and what experience do you have? Not an unfair thing to ask when letting someone loose on dangerous and very expensive kit. Kit that if broken down is clocking up losses at the rate of £10,000’s per minute.

So if you’re happy to be a domestic installer, that’s up to you. But what happens if you’re asked to work outside your comfort zone? There’s no point going on a forum, no one will have a clue what you’re talking about.

I’ll quote E54 “you can’t defend the indefensible”.

Yes Tony, you are 100% right, and as you say to work in the areas you do requires a hell of a lot of training and experience, but you won't get your average guy who only wants to work on Domestic stuff trying to will you? If they do they are idiots. The point is, these guys have no other way to get into the industry, so they either don't at all, and stack beans at Tesco or claim benefit, or they go down the "Lesser" electrician route if that's what you would classify them as. Or you could call them a Domestic Installer, and then everyone would take the mick out of them. Some of them will be good guys who know what they are doing. Personally I think if a particular guy has done his 5 week course and is let loose into the world, he will soon realise he is way short of what is needed and pack it in. I wonder if there are any statistics as to if anyone has ever been killed or injured by a "Part P" electrician?

 

[Knobhead]

What I find offensive is fast track DI’s seem to think they can trade as electricians.
They aren’t electricians and they never will be.

This is why I believe classification and registration is required, the same systems used in most countries. I also believe in the American system where any work is independently tested, verified and certified. Self certification was the worse move ever made simply because there are too many chancers out there.
I’m surprised the insurance companies haven’t stepped in and insisted on real qualifications. They have to pick up the tab when it goes wrong.

Like many others I studied for over four years. One year full time and three of a full day and two evenings a week. To this day I still use the theory and maths I was taught.

 

[sparksburnout]

What I find offensive is fast track DI’s seem to think they can trade as electricians.
They aren’t electricians and they never will be.

This is why I believe classification and registration is required, the same systems used in most countries. I also believe in the American system where any work is independently tested, verified and certified. Self certification was the worse move ever made simply because there are too many chancers out there.
I’m surprised the insurance companies haven’t stepped in and insisted on real qualifications. They have to pick up the tab when it goes wrong.

Like many others I studied for over four years. One year full time and three of a full day and two evenings a week. To this day I still use the theory and maths I was taught.

See, there you go again, "they arn't electricians and they never will be" - why not?? If they continue to study, learn from guys with more experience (given the chance), and become immersed in the industry, why can't they?? You older guys DO NOT have a god-given right to be the only ones in the world who can be called "electricians". Times are a changing, it's not a "noble" profession, its a job. You ain't a doctor, or a lawyer. Just move on

 

[trev]

So what about other jobs?
You cannot legally call yourself a hairdresser without a certain set of qualifications and experience. You cannot legally call yourself a solicitor without a certain set of qualifications and experience
A hairdresser with more legal status than us. If we screw up seriously, people die?
The Royal Academy Of Dance has a greater qualification requirement for it's teachers than the NIC do for DIs.
When did you last hear of anyone being killed at a dance class?

 

[sparksburnout]

So what about other jobs?
You cannot legally call yourself a hairdresser without a certain set of qualifications and experience. You cannot legally call yourself a solicitor without a certain set of qualifications and experience
A hairdresser with more legal status than us. If we screw up seriously, people die?
The Royal Academy Of Dance has a greater qualification requirement for it's teachers than the NIC do for DIs.
When did you last hear of anyone being killed at a dance class?

When did you last hear of anyone being killed by a part "P" sparky?

 

[trev]

When did you last hear of anyone being killed by a part "P" sparky?

Are you sure you want to go there?

 

[davesparks]

When did you last hear of anyone being killed by a part "P" sparky?

I hope you aren't suggesting we wait for one of them to murder an innocent person before something gets done about it!

Many of us have seen work carried out by 'domestic installers' which had left innocent peoples lives in danger. If they had been gas installations left in that condition rather than electrical then the perpetrators would have been off to prison in double quick time!

 

[sparksburnout]

So what about other jobs?
You cannot legally call yourself a hairdresser without a certain set of qualifications and experience. You cannot legally call yourself a solicitor without a certain set of qualifications and experience
A hairdresser with more legal status than us. If we screw up seriously, people die?
The Royal Academy Of Dance has a greater qualification requirement for it's teachers than the NIC do for DIs.
When did you last hear of anyone being killed at a dance class?

I'm not sure where this is going. My daughter is a hairdresser, she's 25, and has done all the NVQ's under the sun, but she's not what you would call "experienced", cos she's 25. However, she is doing a bloody good job and has more work than she can handle at times, cos she's good. Anyone can call themselves a hairdresser, you don't have to have the qualifications, or be a member of any professional body, you just have to know what you are about. So can she not call herself a hairdresser??? If she did your missus hair you would be amazed, but she ain't got 20 years of experience??? It does NOT always follow that having miles on the clock automatically means that you are good at what you claim to do. Some people are good at some things, some are not. No one has a god given right to anything.

 

[trev]

I'm not saying your daughter isn't good at what she does, what I am saying is that in order for her to gain membership of a professional body and legally call herself a hairdresser there are requirements which are protected in law. Check it out, I guarantee you'll be surprised.

Nor am I saying that anyone has a god given right to anything. What I am saying is that when you're messing with something that can and does kill people then you need to have a bit more than the bloody 17th edition.

 

[sparksburnout]

I hope you aren't suggesting we wait for one of them to murder an innocent person before something gets done about it!

Many of us have seen work carried out by 'domestic installers' which had left innocent peoples lives in danger. If they had been gas installations left in that condition rather than electrical then the perpetrators would have been off to prison in double quick time!

of course i am not. I have no idea how many times these guys leave things in a lethal condition, and if they do they need marching out of the industry, as you say, in double quick time. But it wouldn't be murder. The guilty ones would be the government appointed bodies for not making sure they were competent enough not to leave work in a dangerous condition. Why do these bodies not do spot checks on their members work and boot them out if they are sub-standard. Oooops I answer my own question, its all down to bean-counters again, they are the real guilty ones.

 

[john25]

I am more amazed that the Goverment Demands that we need to be Part P registered or in a scam..sry scheme or have to Notify the LABC when doing certain types of Sparky work in Domestic environment but will happily let companies offer 5 week "Boil in the Bag" courses where they can Brainwash ..sorry train people into thinking that after only 5 weeks training they are somehow competent to be let loose in peoples homes

this isn't a Sleight on anyone who has went the "Boil in the bag" route just an observation that's all.

 

[Knobhead]

I do have the right to call myself an electrician. It is stated on my indentures, signed, sealed and delivered. It’s similarly stated on the statutory instrument I hold, issued by the secretary of state. What does it say on yours?

I’ll help anyone, but I’m not going to assist in the degradation of the industry by giving credence to lowering standards.

 

[Badged01]

Many of us have seen work carried out by 'domestic installers' which had left innocent peoples lives in danger.

And dont forget some of the dangerous work carried out by industrial/commercial electricians dabbling in houses! There needs to be something across the board full-stop. Part 'P' has started the ball rolling in some respects but no-one out there is really monitoring whats going on and taking action against those responsible, be they time served or short course trained .....

 

[sparksburnout]

I'm not saying your daughter isn't good at what she does, what I am saying is that in order for her to gain membership of a professional body and legally call herself a hairdresser there are requirements which are protected in law. Check it out, I guarantee you'll be surprised.

Nor am I saying that anyone has a god given right to anything. What I am saying is that when you're messing with something that can and does kill people then you need to have a bit more than the bloody 17th edition.

Yes!! of course you do. It's bloody unbelievable that someone with no previous experience can gain membership of one of the bodies with just the 17th ed course - do they actually do it?? Are there actually people operating with only that and nothing else??? I can't imagine how they can even have the b*****s to pitch up at some member of the public's gaff and actually go through the motions. When I did my NAPIT assessment, ok it wasn't much of a test, but the guy did ask me quite a lot about I&T, if someone had only done the 17th ed, I can't see how he would have passed it???? Do they just recommend you "brush up" on stuff??

 

[trev]

Yes!! of course you do. It's bloody unbelievable that someone with no previous experience can gain membership of one of the bodies with just the 17th ed course - do they actually do it?? Are there actually people operating with only that and nothing else??? I can't imagine how they can even have the b*****s to pitch up at some member of the public's gaff and actually go through the motions. When I did my NAPIT assessment, ok it wasn't much of a test, but the guy did ask me quite a lot about I&T, if someone had only done the 17th ed, I can't see how he would have passed it???? Do they just recommend you "brush up" on stuff??

I met the guy from Elecsa a few months back at a mate's assessment day. Nice bloke but he's using the assessments to sell courses that his business is operating. So yes they do just recommend that numpties brush up on a few things and that's what is so disgraceful about the whole set up.
They'll happily badge someone as competent but on the condition that they sign up for another course. Meanwhile the numpty who needs more guidance is out there practicing in people's homes. Unsupervised.

 

[sparksburnout]

I met the guy from Elecsa a few months back at a mate's assessment day. Nice bloke but he's using the assessments to sell courses that his business is operating. So yes they do just recommend that numpties brush up on a few things and that's what is so disgraceful about the whole set up.
They'll happily badge someone as competent but on the condition that they sign up for another course. Meanwhile the numpty who needs more guidance is out there practicing in people's homes. Unsupervised.

I am shocked. The guy that did my assessment was a "proper" blokes bloke, from up north annaul (ann-all?, how do you spell it?) He gave me the impression that he would not be impressed with bull**** or lack of knowledge. He went over my work in detail, and asked me loads of questions based around I&T, as well as watching me do some testing. I can't imagine he would have passed me if I had not been on the ball. Maybe he would? Personally, if that had been the case, I would not have dared carry on, maybe that's just me. If they are passing guys who shouldn't even pass the assessment, then that is a disgrace, and I am beginning to see where you are coming from.

 

[davesparks]

my initial enrolement with elecsa was a joke!

on the paperwork side he asked to see my qualifications and i passed him a stack of all the C+G and apprenticeship documents I have got, with the 17th edition 238... one at the bottom of the pile. He shuffled through them until he found the 17th edition one and carefully inspected it and wrote down the numbers etc on his form! Needless to say we got off on the wrong foot and things just went downhill from there.

I passed the assessment but by the time we finished he was really scraping the barrel for things to pull me up on!

 

[Engineer54]

Whatever, you carry on winding yourself up and I'll carry on earning a living and enjoying doing so. Guess what, there's far more to life than the electrical industry, most of it of far greater importance.

As for the doom you so enjoy predicting for the industry and everyone in it, I very much doubt it will happen. Obviously that won't stop you and others running around like Henny Penny, but that's up to you. Just supposing it does all crumble, I won't be on a forum crying about it. I'll do something else to earn a living and carry on enjoying life.

I really can't see the upside to spending life stressing over how you or anyone else earns a living. I do my job to the best of my ability, I get paid and the world turns.

I've no idea where you get this impression that i'm winding myself up or running around like Henry Penny, i can assure you i don't do either. Thankfully i'm out of the UK situation, and coming very close to the end of my career....

But that doesn't stop me having strong opinions and convictions on what's going on back in the UK. One thing i've never been, is someone that has just sat back in the armchair and let things pass over my head. Over the years i've had a few set-two's with different organisations, including my own professional institutions, on the whole quite successfully too....

My point being, if you can't be arse'd to even try and make a difference, you only have yourself and others like yourself to blame. Mind, if you don't give much of a ---- about your trade and industry in the first place, then i doubt you will now, or in the future either!!

 

[Engineer54]

So what would you do then, throw all the "DI's" as you call them back onto the dole? And excuse me, but I think it is your generation that has left society in the mess that we both agree it is in. These guys are just trying to make a living by the only route they have available to them. Everyone know's they can't do it on a 5 week course, they need help, but they won't get it, will they? And then, like you say, everything will end up with yet another industry in ruins. The way this bunch of public school idiots are running the country, it's enough to make anyone want to leave it, but for me, I will stop here and make the best of it. Whatever you say, de-camping overseas will not help will it? And by the way I am not at all jealous, after having travelled the globe several times with work, I can assure you I have no wish to live anywhere else other than here. You are entitled to your opinion and so am I, if you don't reside here, you play no part. And like someone else has just said, the electrical industry is not the be-all and end-all, we are just sparky's for goodness sake, not brain surgeons. To get back to the roots of this thread, these "part P" guys need helping, not pulling down and criticising. Would any established sparky on here let one of them spend time with him??

Do you mean you are Ex Royal Navy or Merchant Navy??

What do you mean, ...I ''play no part'', because i don't reside in the UK??

The electrical industry my not be the be all and end all, but it was certainly once held in high esteem. So i guess if you are JUST a sparky, you're not worth very much out there in the market place!!!

As i stated when i first left the UK to work overseas, the electrical industry was on a high. There were NO electrical trainee's, no such animals as Domestic Installers, No part Pee providers, No fast track training centre's of any kind, No level 3 C&G qualifications that could be gained in a couple of days, being a member of NICEIC and /or other similar organisations, was purely voluntary, No parasitic agencies. Shall i go on??

Tell me, how can you help a guy that has had just 17 days to 5 weeks of training. You can't help those that don't even know the fundamentals, now can you. Besides why would anyone that has had to complete 4 or more years as an apprentice doing things correctly earning less money than ALL his mates, think they should help these back door wannabees??

 

[sparksburnout]

Do you mean you are Ex Royal Navy or Merchant Navy??

What do you mean, ...I ''play no part'', because i don't reside in the UK??

The electrical industry my not be the be all and end all, but it was certainly once held in high esteem. So i guess if you are JUST a sparky, you're not worth very much out there in the market place!!!

As i stated when i first left the UK to work overseas, the electrical industry was on a high. There were NO electrical trainee's, no such animals as Domestic Installers, No part Pee providers, No fast track training centre's of any kind, No level 3 C&G qualifications that could be gained in a couple of days, being a member of NICEIC and /or other similar organisations, was purely voluntary, No parasitic agencies. Shall i go on??

Tell me, how can you help a guy that has had just 17 days to 5 weeks of training. You can't help those that don't even know the fundamentals, now can you. Besides why would anyone that has had to complete 4 or more years as an apprentice doing things correctly earning less money than ALL his mates, think they should help these back door wannabees??

I think someone else mentioned you seem to a rather angry type of guy, and to be honest from the comments in your last post I can see why. For a start, no, I wasn't in the forces, are these the only guy's who can have a job where overseas travel is involved? or are you intimating that some of the Electrical Trainee are ex-servicemen who are trying to begin a new job as an electrician and shouldn't be because they are just wannabee's? As I have stated before some of these guys, who you seem to think are just a bit lower than a snake's ***, are not useless idiots and given the correct training could quite easily become competent. Yes, some of them might be hopeless cases, but some would be quite capable. I think you have a rather over-inflated opinion of both yourself and the industry to be honest, and I find some of your comments, particularly the "the likes of you" one offensive. I merely stated that anyone who takes themselves off out of the country, doesn't pay tax into HMRC, doesn't contribute in any other beneficial way to anything including his industry, has no right to either influence things here or moan about it, just my opinion. I came into this industry late, and know I do not have the experience and high level competence of some of you guys that would enable me to train anyone else, but if I was in that position, I would be going out of my way to take on an apprentice of any age, to try and help him, not slagging him off at every opportunity. Oh and bye the way, how do you gain a level 3 C&G in a couple of days??

 

[GMES]

I think someone else mentioned you seem to a rather angry type of guy, and to be honest from the comments in your last post I can see why. For a start, no, I wasn't in the forces, are these the only guy's who can have a job where overseas travel is involved? or are you intimating that some of the Electrical Trainee are ex-servicemen who are trying to begin a new job as an electrician and shouldn't be because they are just wannabee's? As I have stated before some of these guys, who you seem to think are just a bit lower than a snake's ***, are not useless idiots and given the correct training could quite easily become competent. Yes, some of them might be hopeless cases, but some would be quite capable. I think you have a rather over-inflated opinion of both yourself and the industry to be honest, and I find some of your comments, particularly the "the likes of you" one offensive. I merely stated that anyone who takes themselves off out of the country, doesn't pay tax into HMRC, doesn't contribute in any other beneficial way to anything including his industry, has no right to either influence things here or moan about it, just my opinion. I came into this industry late, and know I do not have the experience and high level competence of some of you guys that would enable me to train anyone else, but if I was in that position, I would be going out of my way to take on an apprentice of any age, to try and help him, not slagging him off at every opportunity. Oh and bye the way, how do you gain a level 3 C&G in a couple of days??

Right Sparksburnout i like a debate as much as the next man, but you are missing the point. Take a look at what i have highlighted in bold font from your post!.
Nobody is saying that they won't eventually be some good, what I am saying is at the moment they are not very good, you say in time they will be competent, but what enrages me is they are chargeing unsuspecting members of the public into thinking they are competent now and they simply are not. Most of them admit they are not competent or qualified yet they still persist in trying to fool their customers.
I would not have a problem with anyone who went on a 5 week course and then went on the books with a firm or who got themselve's a Mentor.
You say the guy's themselves aren't to blame, but to a degree they are, if they do a course then get told to go self employed, surely they have the intelligence to realise they are not ready. And if they don't realise this then in my opinion they are more dangerous than i originally thought.

 

[imago]

Honestly gents, there are far too many chips on too many shoulders. If you take out the annoyance and biting pretty much everyone wants the same thing. Decent tradesmen, doing a good well thought out job, using quality materials and ensuring that whatever they're working on is safer when they leave as a result. The mere fact that people are posting in this thread is an indication of their intent to do well surely?

It's not that I don't care about the trade, and I most certainly do care about the work I do. It's simply that I don't think it does any good ripping into folks on a forum for things which are entirely beyond their control.

Training, apprenticeships, trade skills and experience are no longer what they were. That's not just restricted to the electrical industry either. Take a look on a plastering forum to choose one other. There are the same issues there where you have time served blokes who have years of experience across the discipline (gypsum skim, lime, polished, render, screed, fibrous etc etc). They are up in arms about people doing a short course then going into houses and making a mess because all the experience they have is a week in a booth skimming boards.

The days of long apprenticeships covering all aspects of a trade are gone. It's a shame, not ideal, but that's the way it is. The electrical industry has been broken down into sections, and there is absolutely no way back from that. A plant manager doesn't give a stuff if you are familiar with finding a borrowed neutral on a landing, he wants the conveyor working now. Mrs Jones couldn't care less whether you can run galv conduit through a factory and fault find in a panle the size of a bus, she wants here shower to work. Neither the plant manager nor Mrs Jones wants to pay extra for someone who can do both.

Supply and demand, it's the way the world works. If customers demand apprentice trained electricians who can work on industrial, commercial and domestic then they will be created as it makes financial sense. They don't, so it doesn't.

So it's not that I don't care, simply that I have more important things to deal with in life than arguing over who should shut the stable door now that the horse is ten miles down the road.

I also don't like the idea of all the keyboard warrior talk that goes on in these threads. I can absolutely guarantee that if people spoke to one another face to face on site like they do on here there'd be blood and snot flying.

 

[GMES]

Imago answer me one question please and then i will leave it alone.
Do you honestly think a guy with no prior knowledge should be allowed to attend a 5 week course and then immediately be allowed to go self employed and charge the public for this.
No Debate just a simple Yes or No answer.

 

[imago]

No.

One simple question from me then for a yes or no answer.

Do you think that's it's fair to describe or imply that everyone who has completed a short course is incompetent or inexperienced?

 

[GMES]

No.

One simple question from me then for a yes or no answer.

Do you think that's it's fair to describe or imply that everyone who has completed a short course is incompetent or inexperienced?

Yes to the inexperienced, how can they be experienced after 5weeks

 

[Engineer54]

No.

One simple question from me then for a yes or no answer.

Do you think that's it's fair to describe or imply that everyone who has completed a short course is incompetent or inexperienced?

Absolutly ....Incompetent AND inexperienced!!

 

[imago]

You're assuming that's all they've done, which isn't true for some. Equally there's no guarantee that everyone who served an apprenticeship and has been in the trade for years is any good at their job. I can think of a few apprentice trained sparkies who've spent the following 20 - 30 years being cr4p.

One in particular who served his time and worked for the first fifteen years afterwards as a maintenance electrician for Land Rover. He doesn't give a ----, work's rough, no idea or interest in anything to do with standards or part 'P'. But he ticks all the old school boxes, has a JIB card and a nice shiny van bought with redundancy money. I'd take a five week wonder over that muppet any time.

So the idea that all Electrical Trainee are dangerous inexperienced chancers, and all apprentice trained experienced electricians are good at their job is cobblers. Not that either 'side' in the argument will let facts get in the way of hysteria, sweeping generalisations and personal attacks.

 

[Knobhead]

And dont forget some of the dangerous work carried out by industrial/commercial electricians dabbling in houses! There needs to be something across the board full-stop. Part 'P' has started the ball rolling in some respects but no-one out there is really monitoring whats going on and taking action against those responsible, be they time served or short course trained .....

Most industrial guys will know the theory and reason for doing something and probably go about things in a logical manner, not monkey see, monkey do.

I have great respect for properly qualified electricians who choose the domestic side, it’s not something I enjoy and have avoided.

I have absolutely no respect for the Domestic Installer. Who, after five weeks thinks he is legitimately entitled to practice* on unsuspecting householders and be paid.


* OED Definition of practice:

Mass noun:
The actual application or use of an idea, belief, or method, as opposed to theories relating to it.

Synonyms:
1. Repeated exercise in or performance of an activity or skill so as to acquire proficiency in it.
2. Training, rehearsal, repetition, preparation, exercise, drill, study; practice session, dummy run, run-through, try-out, warm-up, [informal] dry run.

Count noun:
A period of time spent practising (learning) an activity or skill.

 

[GMES]

I have had a think about the incompetent part and i have got to say that is a yes also, let me explain my reason.
A person who has no prior knowledge, cannot, in my opinion be competent after 5 weeks.
I don't personally like the term incompetent but it does have a rightful meaning it is not a derogatory term it is a true fact, in the same way as if i did a 5 week course in neurology i would not be competent in performing brain surgery however i may just about be able to open someone's head in a rough way.
I have always stood by the fact that most people can get a light or socket to work, but if they are not competent and experienced how can they know ifwhat they have done is safe, that is the part that scares the crap out of me.
Ps one final point Regarding Engineer54, he is not aggressive, nor does he have a chip on his shoulder and if you think that then you have misjudged him. Take the time to read back through the many thousands of post he has been involved with , then you may begain to understand and respect the Guy.

 

[GMES]

Most industrial guys will know the theory and reason for doing something and probably go about things in a logical manner, not monkey see, monkey do.

I have great respect for properly qualified electricians who choose the domestic side, it’s not something I enjoy and have avoided.

I have absolutely no respect for the Domestic Installer. Who, after five weeks thinks he is legitimately entitled to practice* on unsuspecting householders and be paid.


* OED Definition of practice:

Mass noun:
The actual application or use of an idea, belief, or method, as opposed to theories relating to it.

Synonyms:
1. Repeated exercise in or performance of an activity or skill so as to acquire proficiency in it.
2. Training, rehearsal, repetition, preparation, exercise, drill, study; practice session, dummy run, run-through, try-out, warm-up, [informal] dry run.

Count noun:
A period of time spent practising (learning) an activity or skill.

Bloody hell Tony, you make the rest of us look stupid. i wish i could put a post like that together.

 

[imago]

Ps one final point Regarding Engineer54, he is not aggressive, nor does he have a chip on his shoulder and if you think that then you have misjudged him. Take the time to read back through the many thousands of post he has been involved with , then you may begain to understand and respect the Guy.

"Physician heal thyself" I think that there are quite a few that might benefit from reading back through posts!

Anyway, this 37 page merry go round is unlikely to get resolved. I have my opinions, you have yours, and so does everyone else. Fortunately that's all they are opinions, and ultimately make no difference whatsoever to the situation or anyone's working life.

Enjoy your weekend Gents.

 

[southsea1201]

Too much of the evidence against Electrical Trainee is anecdotal. When was the last fire or fatality caused by a Electrical Trainee. I have had the pleasure of working with 2 ex-navy guys in my city. Both Electrical Trainee's. Both of them conscientous, both of them incredibly neat and fully understanding the requirements of the regs. Coming from technical backgrounds made it a breeze for them to grasps the principles of BS7671.
It doesn't make sense to tar all with the same brush. I have done work at installations originally carried out by a huge contracting firm and their work was 100% shoddy, so there is no way generalisations carry any weight with me.

 

[Engineer54]

Honestly gents, there are far too many chips on too many shoulders. If you take out the annoyance and biting pretty much everyone wants the same thing. Decent tradesmen, doing a good well thought out job, using quality materials and ensuring that whatever they're working on is safer when they leave as a result. The mere fact that people are posting in this thread is an indication of their intent to do well surely?

It's not that I don't care about the trade, and I most certainly do care about the work I do. It's simply that I don't think it does any good ripping into folks on a forum for things which are entirely beyond their control.

Training, apprenticeships, trade skills and experience are no longer what they were. That's not just restricted to the electrical industry either. Take a look on a plastering forum to choose one other. There are the same issues there where you have time served blokes who have years of experience across the discipline (gypsum skim, lime, polished, render, screed, fibrous etc etc). They are up in arms about people doing a short course then going into houses and making a mess because all the experience they have is a week in a booth skimming boards.

The days of long apprenticeships covering all aspects of a trade are gone. It's a shame, not ideal, but that's the way it is. The electrical industry has been broken down into sections, and there is absolutely no way back from that. A plant manager doesn't give a stuff if you are familiar with finding a borrowed neutral on a landing, he wants the conveyor working now. Mrs Jones couldn't care less whether you can run galv conduit through a factory and fault find in a panle the size of a bus, she wants here shower to work. Neither the plant manager nor Mrs Jones wants to pay extra for someone who can do both.

Supply and demand, it's the way the world works. If customers demand apprentice trained electricians who can work on industrial, commercial and domestic then they will be created as it makes financial sense. They don't, so it doesn't.

So it's not that I don't care, simply that I have more important things to deal with in life than arguing over who should shut the stable door now that the horse is ten miles down the road.

I also don't like the idea of all the keyboard warrior talk that goes on in these threads. I can absolutely guarantee that if people spoke to one another face to face on site like they do on here there'd be blood and snot flying.

For all your rhetoric ...how come, is it that in the rest of Europe, Apprentice type training at Trade and Engineering colleges is still very much the norm, in fact the only way to become qualified?? No such thing at 5 week Trade courses for ANY trade, least of all for the electrical trade... So if they can manage to keep tried and proven standards for there tradesmen, why is it so difficult for the UK?? ....And i'm really talking about England and Wales, as Scotland doesn't seem to recognise the 17 day/electrical trainee DI's up there!! The horse hasn't bolted far enough away to bring it back under control....

De skilling will hurt everyone in the industry, and if you can't see why that is, you really need to open you're eyes and see what's going on under you're very nose. lest to say, if you keep allowing every tom and dick parasite organisation free reign in your industry, it ain't gonna be too long before you will treated as, and paid little more than a semi skilled tradesman. Not that there will be many fully qualified and experienced electricians around in 20/30 years, they will all be 5 week wonder's!! lol!!

As for the keyboard warrior talk, .....well i think you may be more than a little surprised if you think that it would be definitely my snot and blood that's flying around!!

 

[sparksburnout]

You're assuming that's all they've done, which isn't true for some. Equally there's no guarantee that everyone who served an apprenticeship and has been in the trade for years is any good at their job. I can think of a few apprentice trained sparkies who've spent the following 20 - 30 years being cr4p.

One in particular who served his time and worked for the first fifteen years afterwards as a maintenance electrician for Land Rover. He doesn't give a ----, work's rough, no idea or interest in anything to do with standards or part 'P'. But he ticks all the old school boxes, has a JIB card and a nice shiny van bought with redundancy money. I'd take a five week wonder over that muppet any time.

So the idea that all Electrical Trainee are dangerous inexperienced chancers, and all apprentice trained experienced electricians are good at their job is cobblers. Not that either 'side' in the argument will let facts get in the way of hysteria, sweeping generalisations and personal attacks.

This is the most sensible post anyone has put together on here, probably including mine, so I am going to leave it now, with a few statements on the lines of Imago's
1. It is obvious that someone with no prior experience or aptitude, cannot do a 5 week course and be any good, and probably dangerous.
2. There are some guys, with prior experience and aptitude, who could become decent electricians, particularly (in my opinion) if they are only going to work in the relatively restrictive area of domestic. I'm not saying its not very tricky at times, but it's not as complex as many industrial situations.
3. For a guy that has just been booted out of his job and wants to get into another field of work, there is no other option, other than claim benefit. At least they are trying.
4. The "scams" as they are called are a good idea basically, they are obviously being administered wrongly. They should not accept anyone without decent qualifications, and those without should go to college off their own bat and get them first. I have worked around electrical installations for many years and think I have a good general understanding and practical experience, and could have quite easily got into one of the scams, but I wanted to do it as properly as I could and went back to college, at 55.
5. If a guy does not pass his "scam" assessment with flying colours, he SHOULD NOT be allowed to work anywhere. The idea that these bodies just give recommendations to "brush up a bit" is outrageous. Personally if it happened to me I would be too ashamed and worried to even consider going any further.
6. There are plenty of "dyed in the wool" "sparky's" who, as Imago so rightly said, are cr%p. I have met some at college and their lack of understanding is frightening. My mate works with a bloke who has spent 15 years house bashing for an established firm - he knows to "chuck a bit of 6 milly in" for a cooker, but he has not got the first idea why it's 6 and not 2.5!
7. If we go by ENG54 recommendations, there will be no sparkies left at all soon. Of course the best way is an apprentice who has then gone on to work with experienced guys and learned on the job, but that just does not happen any more, because we apparently can't afford it, as a country. The apprentice schemes that this lot running the country provide now are a joke, and just cheap labour half the time. We can't just throw all the Part P guys onto the dole, and before there was part P, back in the "golden days" loads of people used to do their own wiring and be even more dangerous. What we need is part P run on a proper basis.

 

[Engineer54]

You're assuming that's all they've done, which isn't true for some. Equally there's no guarantee that everyone who served an apprenticeship and has been in the trade for years is any good at their job. I can think of a few apprentice trained sparkies who've spent the following 20 - 30 years being cr4p.

One in particular who served his time and worked for the first fifteen years afterwards as a maintenance electrician for Land Rover. He doesn't give a ----, work's rough, no idea or interest in anything to do with standards or part 'P'. But he ticks all the old school boxes, has a JIB card and a nice shiny van bought with redundancy money. I'd take a five week wonder over that muppet any time.

So the idea that all Electrical Trainee are dangerous inexperienced chancers, and all apprentice trained experienced electricians are good at their job is cobblers. Not that either 'side' in the argument will let facts get in the way of hysteria, sweeping generalisations and personal attacks.

If they needed to go on a 5 week course in the first place, and that's the only qualifications they hold, then no matter what way you want to look at it, they will be both incompetent and inexperienced.... I've heard that old fall-back, about rough time-served electricians so many times now. Yes i quite agree with you, but then there has ''Always'' been the rough and ready element in every trade. The difference being, that the rough time served electrician will know full well he's rough, whereas you can't say the same for the fast track wannabee....

The main fact remains, there are now literary thousands upon thousands of under qualified, under trained, under skilled, incompetent an inexperienced wannabe electricians out there working in unsuspecting customers/clients homes and businesses, that should never have been allowed in the workplace in the first place....

By the very fact that these 17 day/Electrical Trainee's have so little training, yes they ARE inexperienced chancers as you put it. There is no hysteria about about it mate, them's as they say, ...are the god's given facts!! ...Err, what personal attacks are you talking about then??

 

[Knobhead]

For god’s sake, someone shoot this thread! It would be a kindness to put it out of its misery! The poor thing has been flogged to the stage it’s on its last legs.

Donkeys on a tread mill have a better life than this! At least they are blindfolded so they don’t know they are going around in circles.

There are a couple of the mods I know are owners of firearms, one of you do the deed. The poor thing will thank you.