NICEIC Certification Scheme Max ZS allowed on NICEIC cert seems wrong?

[Anthony S]

I thought you was with napit?

That was years ago when I was doing a bit for my mate with the NIC and joined Napit at the same time. They took the money then came out and see me about 3 months later lol showed then a spur in my shed lol

 

[telectrix]

Now, as a trained fire officer you must have undergone some pretty strenuous, intense and demanding training before you were allowed out in the big red truck. How would you and your workmates feel if I was suddenly foisted on you after only a quarter of the training you had to undergo? Of course you'd object because I wouldn't have a fraction of the knowledge you lads have. I'd be a danger to you and to myself but if some muppet somewhere said I was suddenly equal to you then I'm good to go right?

totally agree. it's like training a guy to use a fire extinguisher and then saying he's a competent firefighter.

 

[Anthony S]

Actually no they don't and the list is not endless...

1. Smoking causes
2. White goods such as dishwashers, washing machines & tumble dryers
3. Electrical installations.

No disrespect, but fitting a new consumer unit won't sort out the 1 & 2 above.

 

[trev]

Clark do me a favour please. Have a trawl about on here and see how many threads there are about how to calculate maximum demand or apply diversity. These are "Janet and John" subjects to any properly qualified electrician.
See how many threads there are about TT systems that are woefully inadequate. Once again, a properly functioning TT is something that we all should be able to install.
See how many threads there are from people not being able to understand why an RCD is tripping because they don't understand what it is, what it's supposed to do and how it does what it does.
See how many threads there are about simple faults and how many of those start with the words "I'm a fully qualified domestic installer but ....."

 

[Clark3169]

The semi trained Tesco guys do not necessarily install safe work though, they get the vast majority of their experience in a workshop on a big lump of wood and are then released into the world with some bunch of muppets telling them they're competent. Some will be and some will not. Some will realise they're out of their depth, some will not.
DIY Dave has not been stopped by this farce. I was in a pub just a few nights ago and someone started to crack on to me about electrical work. A guy over heard and suggested the guy talk to someone at the end of the bar who "isn't an electrician but he knows what he's doing" DIY Dve is alive and well mate and still carries on with his botch jobs. It may well have worked where you are but it sure as hell hasn't worked here.
Now, as a trained fire officer you must have undergone some pretty strenuous, intense and demanding training before you were allowed out in the big red truck. How would you and your workmates feel if I was suddenly foisted on you after only a quarter of the training you had to undergo? Of course you'd object because I wouldn't have a fraction of the knowledge you lads have. I'd be a danger to you and to myself but if some muppet somewhere said I was suddenly equal to you then I'm good to go right?
I think you're missing the political aspect of what's going on behind the scenes Clark. The CPS operators were given a chance to deem people competent who had years of experience but no paper quals. They then spotted this as a cash cow, they abused this by badging up anyone and now despite having the failure pointed out to them in BIG HUGE LETTERS they refuse to kill the goose that laid (and keeps on laying) the golden egg.
A proper scheme of registration and licencing for all electricians modelled on Gas Safe will be something that ALL electricians will happily get behind as long as it has a single regulator who is not motivated by money and who has long sharp teeth and the resources and inclination to use them against anyone who transgresses.

I agree with what you are saying and I'm not saying it's stopped DIY Dave but I am saying its reduced it. I understand your point about the fast track training thing not always being adequate but to the right person it can be. When part p was introduced originally I too thought the same as many of the views expressed here today however as I see the result of bad wirring and I see the stats and indeed pay a part in collating them (before the powers that be get hold of them) I know that on the whole it genuinely has had a positive effect on safety. As mush as we all want to hate it or improve it to bring it inline with gas safe or to scrap it the truth is it does help. I'm gonna hit the sack now so don't mean to be rude if I don't reply. Ta.

 

[trev]

Now, as a trained fire officer you must have undergone some pretty strenuous, intense and demanding training before you were allowed out in the big red truck. How would you and your workmates feel if I was suddenly foisted on you after only a quarter of the training you had to undergo? Of course you'd object because I wouldn't have a fraction of the knowledge you lads have. I'd be a danger to you and to myself but if some muppet somewhere said I was suddenly equal to you then I'm good to go right?

Good night, sleep well mate. When you get back though, I'd welcome a response to that bit above because that to me is the crux of the matter (in a round about way)

 

[Clark3169]

Clark do me a favour please. Have a trawl about on here and see how many threads there are about how to calculate maximum demand or apply diversity. These are "Janet and John" subjects to any properly qualified electrician.
See how many threads there are about TT systems that are woefully inadequate. Once again, a properly functioning TT is something that we all should be able to install.
See how many threads there are from people not being able to understand why an RCD is tripping because they don't understand what it is, what it's supposed to do and how it does what it does.
See how many threads there are about simple faults and how many of those start with the words "I'm a fully qualified domestic installer but ....."

Ok one last reply before bed. Your actually making my point for me. My point is those people are taking the time to find out and learn and are concerned to get it right and to expand on their knowledge so that they can find & fix these faults. They have had some input and are now trying to get more where as before they may have just "had a go" I'm not saying it's perfect but it has helped and some training & knowledge is better than none.

 

[Leesparkykent]

The semi trained Tesco guys do not necessarily install safe work though, they get the vast majority of their experience in a workshop on a big lump of wood and are then released into the world with some bunch of muppets telling them they're competent. Some will be and some will not. Some will realise they're out of their depth, some will not.
DIY Dave has not been stopped by this farce. I was in a pub just a few nights ago and someone started to crack on to me about electrical work. A guy over heard and suggested the guy talk to someone at the end of the bar who "isn't an electrician but he knows what he's doing" DIY Dve is alive and well mate and still carries on with his botch jobs. It may well have worked where you are but it sure as hell hasn't worked here.
Now, as a trained fire officer you must have undergone some pretty strenuous, intense and demanding training before you were allowed out in the big red truck. How would you and your workmates feel if I was suddenly foisted on you after only a quarter of the training you had to undergo? Of course you'd object because I wouldn't have a fraction of the knowledge you lads have. I'd be a danger to you and to myself but if some muppet somewhere said I was suddenly equal to you then I'm good to go right?
I think you're missing the political aspect of what's going on behind the scenes Clark. The CPS operators were given a chance to deem people competent who had years of experience but no paper quals. They then spotted this as a cash cow, they abused this by badging up anyone and now despite having the failure pointed out to them in BIG HUGE LETTERS they refuse to kill the goose that laid (and keeps on laying) the golden egg.
A proper scheme of registration and licencing for all electricians modelled on Gas Safe will be something that ALL electricians will happily get behind as long as it has a single regulator who is not motivated by money and who has long sharp teeth and the resources and inclination to use them against anyone who transgresses.

DIY dave has always been around even before the invention of part P lol.

 

[trev]

DIY dave has always been around even before the invention of part P lol.

My whole point Lee, he's always been here and always will be because there's always some knacker that will happily get a job done for the price of a packet of tabs and a couple of pints.

 

[trev]

Ok one last reply before bed. Your actually making my point for me. My point is those people are taking the time to find out and learn and are concerned to get it right and to expand on their knowledge so that they can find & fix these faults. They have had some input and are now trying to get more where as before they may have just "had a go" I'm not saying it's perfect but it has helped and some training & knowledge is better than none.

I'm not really making your point for you mate though, what I'm getting at is that these people are being churned out by the training centres and the CPS operators in their thousands. They're realising that they're clueless and so they type something into google and find this place. They then think they've found the promised land, without the internet they'd be totally screwed. Up poo creek without a bloody canoe let alone a paddle

 

[Leesparkykent]

My whole point Lee, he's always been here and always will be because there's always some knacker that will happily get a job done for the price of a packet of tabs and a couple of pints.

I have got a EICR to do on a pub next week. Not looking forward to it as it looks like every man and his dog has had a crack at the electrics for a few free beers lol

 

[andyelectric]

Clark do me a favour please. Have a trawl about on here and see how many threads there are about how to calculate maximum demand or apply diversity. These are "Janet and John" subjects to any properly qualified electrician.
See how many threads there are about TT systems that are woefully inadequate. Once again, a properly functioning TT is something that we all should be able to install.
See how many threads there are from people not being able to understand why an RCD is tripping because they don't understand what it is, what it's supposed to do and how it does what it does.
See how many threads there are about simple faults and how many of those start with the words "I'm a fully qualified domestic installer but ....."

To be fair, there are also many threads starting, " I am a fully qualified electrician but rarely touch domestic" that lead onto the same basic questions as "I'm a domestic installer but....".

 

[Octopus]

Thats a days pay!!

;-)

Think of the time saved AND the professional image of a computer generated cert PLUS you can email the cert and keep an electronic copy.

Hand written certs - thats so 20th Century!

 

[telectrix]

love the computer printed certs. but my problem is signing them.

 

[Octopus]

love the computer printed certs. but my problem is signing them.

scan your signature and add the image to the software? Thats how I do it!

 

[Leesparkykent]

Think of the time saved AND the professional image of a computer generated cert PLUS you can email the cert and keep an electronic copy.

Hand written certs - thats so 20th Century!

Especially when you have hand writing like mine, looks like a 9 year old with a crayon lol

 

[Anthony S]

I have got a EICR to do on a pub next week. Not looking forward to it as it looks like every man and his dog has had a crack at the electrics for a few free beers lol

£5 a circuit lol

 

[telectrix]

scan your signature and add the image to the software? Thats how I do it!

'

tried that with limited success. scanned sig. then done a copy/paste, will have another go next cert.

 

[Leesparkykent]

£5 a circuit lol

Sod that lol, day rate all the way!

 

[Octopus]

'

tried that with limited success. scanned sig. then done a copy/paste, will have another go next cert.

which cert software are you using?

 

[Leesparkykent]

Icertifi app on the iPad IMO is alright has E signatures etc

 

[telectrix]

1. can't get icertify on my ipad. 2. i use lappy for certs.

 

[Leesparkykent]

1. can't get icertify on my ipad. 2. i use lappy for certs.

How come you can't get the app?

 

[telectrix]

because it needs later version of ios. forget which. my ipad is a 1st. generation model.

 

[Diddy]

Yep part p may have reduced the fires but imho and the opinion of the trade in general it may have had good intentions but the fact is the way they (the schemes) operate just does not work. I am pretty sure if I were to have access to gas safe's stats I would find a "reasonable" percentage of installers chucked out or at the very least recalled for retraining in the event of complaints about the standards of their work.
How many Part P prosecutions have there been ? Personally have not heard of one
How many gas safe related prosecutions - I would bet many times more.
To get on gas safe you must have a practical nvq3 (I believe) to get on part p...you have to pass an open book exam on regs.
Just to close here is a post from another unrelated forum im on asking sparks about a diy job in his own house that he seems to be about to undertake....

I have an outside halogen security fed with 3 core 2.5 grey cable.

Is it possible to feed the above cable to a 2 way weather proof box then from the box back to the lamp and from the other connection run a cable down the wall to a weather proof socket.
Then from the socket I would run a cable to get power to my shed.

Thanks’

That bloke posted the question up yesterday......general opinion (before I posted) told him it would all work and just do it......Maybe not in those words, but there was no "Watch out" that needs notifying or even a ref to part p.
I could reduce fires from a huge number of electrical installations in one swoop - Stop selling cable and accessories to unqualified people. Easy....infact so easy you would think only an idiot would sell these things to the untrained/unqualified.......But as we all know that's never going to happen as there is a whole industry out there that feeds the diy market and they would go to great lengths to protect their client base.
I would bet the introduction of that one piece of legislation would wipe the floor with part p and all the schemes put together...it would actually probably be more effective than the introduction of bs7671 lol.

 

[D Skelton]

Well if I could be bothered I could gather the stats from work for you or you could take my word for it. Tell me, before regulation if you left a loose connection in a property miles from where you lived and it burnt to the ground. Would you have ever known about it? The answer is no. I however would and I can tell you from first hand experience that the number of fires caused by poor electrical installations has gone down and before you start to talk to me about how the government fix the stats they can only do that after we are submitted them and I'm afraid to all you part P haters out there the figures speak for themselves.

You are right, the figures do certainly speak for themselves!

The number of domestic electrical fires in general, nationwide, since the introduction of Part P, has been on a steady decline. These statistics are clear as day and simply cannot be argued with. They are 100% correct. What is incorrect however is attributing this steady decline of domestic electrical fires solely to Part P. "Why?" I hear you ask. Well, domestic electrical fires in general were on a steady decline for years before the introduction of Part P anyway. Part P has no bearing whatsoever on the decline of domestic electrical fires.

What Part P does have a bearing on however is domestic electrical fires caused by faulty wiring. Statistics can be used in many ways to manipulate public perception. When you start to break down those statistics and look and the individual causes of domestic electrical fires in general, an entirely different picture is painted. Prior to Part P domestic electrical fires caused by faulty wiring was on a steady decline in line with the general trend, as were domestic electrical fires caused by faulty appliances, electric hobs, hair driers, chip pans and toasters etc. Upon the introduction of Part P though, the very year it was introduced in fact, domestic electrical fires caused by faulty wiring started to steadily rise, while the rest of the causes continued to decline.

Part P has had a very drastic impact on domestic electrical safety for sure. It has reduced it significantly! A short read of the Emma Shaw case, although unrelated to fires, only goes further to bolster this fact.

Statistics and figures aside for a moment, lets look at personal experience.

We as a company carry out very little domestic work these days. What domestic work we do carry out is mainly comprised of periodic inspection and testing. What I am continually finding are houses with old wiring which is still perfectly sound. It's when we look at the modern alterations to the property that things start to fall down. The new loft conversion, kitchen or extension for example that has been wired only a few yars ago that is rough as a dogs dinner in terms of electrical saftey.

Only a week ago I was carrying out a PIR for a landlord that needed his HMO licence on a house with wiring that was at least 30 years old. I never cease to be amazed by the sheer level of craftmanship displayed when inspecting old wiring. Not a single conductor out of place. What I found however was a new two storey extension built on the side of the house that had its own submain and DB. Lets just put it simply, the whole lot needed ripping out and starting from scratch. This work was carried out only two years ago and it was certified and notified by a local firm who I know is headed up by a five week wonder.

Last month I was inspecting a house that had a relatively new kitchen and a newish DB, I reckon no more than five or six years old. The landlord ensured me the work was carried out by his friend who was a 'registered' electrician as he put it. A little digging and I find out that it was the kitchen fitter who had done the wiring. He was registered none the less. Everything in the house was fine apart from... You guessed it; the kitchen and the DB! Open end ring final circuits, cables wrapped round pipes, bare connector blocks under the kitchen units, insulation showing outside of enclosures, live parts accessible under the sink, blanks missing in the board, a busbar that had been bent to fit a different brand MCB and lovely charred connection between the neutral bar and the main switch.

These sorts of findings are a regular occurence.

Now I know full well that my personal experience alone cannot be taken as any hard evidence to rebut yours. When you start listening to the personal experiences of thousands of highly qualified and experienced sparks up and down the country however, and they are all saying the same thing, this does start to suggest that your personal experience may not be as indicative of the standards displayed by todays 'electricians' as you think.

My challenge to you; next time you investigate a fire caused by faulty wiring, look closer at who carried it out. I will bet a significant amount of money that they do not hold a core qualification in electrical installation or maintenance and instead, hold nothing more than a worthless piece of paper with 'Domestic Installer' plastered in bold at the top, followed by, 'Part P', '17th Edition', 'PAT testing' and '2392' in italics below.

You can throw as many figures as you like at us in an effort to show that Part P works. We in turn however can throw ten times as many back at you to prove that it doesn't!

 

[ipf]

A few really good explanations of the true situation, as WE know it. However, will it be enough for the fireman to attempt, even, to remove the blinkers and actually get real? Figures talk loud, it seems.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Interesting thread and 117 posts on max Zs values not given on NIC software lol.
just as long as we dont go off topic fella's!

 

[Anthony S]

A few really good explanations of the true situation, as WE know it. However, will it be enough for the fireman to attempt, even, to remove the blinkers and actually get real? Figures talk loud, it seems.

Defending Part P because he need's it trade imo I may be wrong but doubt it. Maybe he's done the short courses if he his a firefighter as well as carrying out Electrical work under the Domestic Installer Badge ?