New kitchen, live earth fault!!

[Jeff.wd]

Hi.. We have just had a new kitchen fitted, a few sockets moved, led lights, new supply for the electric oven and a rcd board fitted.
They told us they had checked the supply before they started and everything was fine, we knew to meet regs the board needed replacing, during installation the kitchen fitter drilled through a cable, getting a large flash but no fuses had blown (still the old board at this point) he told us straightaway and said he would get the electrician to check it, when the electricians returned to finish the kitchen and fit the board they told us the cable was fine and they had crimped it, ( would that mean removing some of the plaster and conduit to access the cable, in order to crimp it.)
The next day when the gas/plumber was fitting the new gas hob, he was getting tingling shocks from the gas pipe, when we plugged the hob into the socket for the ignition, (with the socket switched off), it tripped a rcd on the new board, we spoke to the electrician and he was convinced we had a faulty hob, he told us to try another appliance in that socket, we tried a hairdryer and it worked fine with nothing tripping. We then plugged the hob in and all appeared okay, over the weekend my partner received several shocks from the metal sockets above the worktops, we informed the electrician and he said he would come after the weekend.
On arrival he thought it would be a short visit and easily sorted, after 4 hours of trying to diagnose the fault, we now have been told that there is 80 volts leaking via earth to the bonding, they said the kitchen is testing and okay and the downstairs/kitchen ring is okay through the hallway, once they test in the lounge they pick the fault up there? They left saying they would phone colleagues and technical teams for ideas.
They are coming back next week to try and solve the problem, they said the conclusion is either a pressure fault or possibly a badly wired plug on a appliance?
Now my thoughts, all cables from the main board in the garage run up to the ceiling cavity, I presume the feed and return for the downstairs/kitchen ring, will come down from the ceiling go under the floorboards and return else where, the cable that was drilled through, comes from the ceiling going directly down the wall (no sockets etc) then under the floorboards,I asked them what the cable that was, they said it is not part of the kitchen ring, I can't think that it can be anything else other than part of the downstairs ring? Would drilling into that cable possibly cause a surge, resulting in a fault some where on the downstairs ring?
They want to charge us for diagnosing and repairing,unless it was caused by the work in the kitchen!!
Many thanks for any help/advice or guidance.

Cheers Jeff.

 

[The Ghost]

Oh Dear,what a headache. Just spent all day on kitchen ring with not too dissimilar problems. It is impossible to speculate on what the cause may be without seeing the layout and so on. However I really dont know about leaving a fault of that magnitude/danger without sorting it out. So where are you now as regards your supply got power everywhere but Kitchen? What circuit is turned off that will tell you what circuit one is talking about. Nightmare!

 

[Jeff.wd]

Oh Dear,what a headache. Just spent all day on kitchen ring with not too dissimilar problems. It is impossible to speculate on what the cause may be without seeing the layout and so on. However I really dont know about leaving a fault of that magnitude/danger without sorting it out. So where are you now as regards your supply got power everywhere but Kitchen? What circuit is turned off that will tell you what circuit one is talking about. Nightmare!

Hi thanks for your reply, all circuits have power, the hob is currently still unplugged, I believe they may have temporarily removed the bonding from the gas pipe, because that was drawing the voltage from the earth towards the sockets in the kitchen that were giving shocks. They said it isn't life threatening?

 

[Octopus]

Jeff.... do you have the EIC (electrical installation certificate) for the new fuseboard?

I wonder if he has equipotential bonding cables to his water and gas!

 

[Pete999]

Hi.. We have just had a new kitchen fitted, a few sockets moved, led lights, new supply for the electric oven and a rcd board fitted.
They told us they had checked the supply before they started and everything was fine, we knew to meet regs the board needed replacing, during installation the kitchen fitter drilled through a cable, getting a large flash but no fuses had blown (still the old board at this point) he told us straightaway and said he would get the electrician to check it, when the electricians returned to finish the kitchen and fit the board they told us the cable was fine and they had crimped it, ( would that mean removing some of the plaster and conduit to access the cable, in order to crimp it.)
The next day when the gas/plumber was fitting the new gas hob, he was getting tingling shocks from the gas pipe, when we plugged the hob into the socket for the ignition, (with the socket switched off), it tripped a rcd on the new board, we spoke to the electrician and he was convinced we had a faulty hob, he told us to try another appliance in that socket, we tried a hairdryer and it worked fine with nothing tripping. We then plugged the hob in and all appeared okay, over the weekend my partner received several shocks from the metal sockets above the worktops, we informed the electrician and he said he would come after the weekend.
On arrival he thought it would be a short visit and easily sorted, after 4 hours of trying to diagnose the fault, we now have been told that there is 80 volts leaking via earth to the bonding, they said the kitchen is testing and okay and the downstairs/kitchen ring is okay through the hallway, once they test in the lounge they pick the fault up there? They left saying they would phone colleagues and technical teams for ideas.
They are coming back next week to try and solve the problem, they said the conclusion is either a pressure fault or possibly a badly wired plug on a appliance?
Now my thoughts, all cables from the main board in the garage run up to the ceiling cavity, I presume the feed and return for the downstairs/kitchen ring, will come down from the ceiling go under the floorboards and return else where, the cable that was drilled through, comes from the ceiling going directly down the wall (no sockets etc) then under the floorboards,I asked them what the cable that was, they said it is not part of the kitchen ring, I can't think that it can be anything else other than part of the downstairs ring? Would drilling into that cable possibly cause a surge, resulting in a fault some where on the downstairs ring?
They want to charge us for diagnosing and repairing,unless it was caused by the work in the kitchen!!
Many thanks for any help/advice or guidance.

Cheers Jeff.

If Kev the Kitchen fitter drilled through a cable, it should be fairly obvious to where he drilled, unless the boil in the bag sparkie ( sorry Kenny couldn't resist) covered it up and tried to hide it, however they screwed up it's down to them to sort it, don't let them bully you into accepting anything less that perfect, the Kitchen company will more than likely be a member of one of the CPScams NICEIC, NAPIT or something like that, if they try to fob you off find out which scam they belong to and get them involved.

 

[Jeff.wd]

Jeff.... do you have the EIC (electrical installation certificate) for the new fuseboard?

Yes they issued that following the installation, but before the gas/plumber came to fit the hob, which was when the problem came to light.

 

[telectrix]

as last 2 posts. don't be fobbed off. tell them you are going to get an independent electrician out and bill them for it. also as murdoch says, make sure you have an installation certificate.

 

[Octopus]

I would be VERY interested to see the schedule of test results... can you post a copy?


Faults like yours don't normally "happen" without something else contributing to the situation....

 

[Jeff.wd]

If Kev the Kitchen fitter drilled through a cable, it should be fairly obvious to where he drilled, unless the boil in the bag sparkie ( sorry Kenny couldn't resist) covered it up and tried to hide it, however they screwed up it's down to them to sort it, don't let them bully you into accepting anything less that perfect, the Kitchen company will more than likely be a member of one of the CPScams NICEIC, NAPIT or something like that, if they try to fob you off find out which scam they belong to and get them involved.

It was a fitter that has his own business, he does a lot of work for a large kitchen supplier, we gave him the job independently, cash in hand!!

 

[Octopus]

Yes they issued that following the installation, but before the gas/plumber came to fit the hob, which was when the problem came to light.

Is the hob plugged in?

 

[Octopus]

It was a fitter that has his own business, he does a lot of work for a large kitchen supplier, we gave him the job independently, cash in hand!!

What cash in hand for the fuseboard change?

 

[Jeff.wd]

Is the hob plugged in?

No, be use that's were the fault first started, until they come back they said to leave it unplugged.

 

[Jeff.wd]

I

What cash in hand for the fuseboard change?

Well we paid in cash,but we do have the certificate. Why do you ask?

 

[Pete999]

It was a fitter that has his own business, he does a lot of work for a large kitchen supplier, we gave him the job independently, cash in hand!!

Woops

 

[Jeff.wd]

I would be VERY interested to see the schedule of test results... can you post a copy?


Faults like yours don't normally "happen" without something else contributing to the situation....

 

[Octopus]

I

Well we paid in cash,but we do have the certificate. Why do you ask?

Just wondering if he is going to do the LABC Part P notification?

I think the spark who changed the board and the chap who did the kitchen change have a moral obligation to investigate FOC...

 

[Octopus]

So the upstairs sockets aren't protected by a RCD - why not? The installation doesn't comply with the regs....

Can you post a picture of the fuseboard?

 

[westward10]

So the upstairs sockets aren't protected by a RCD - why not? The installation doesn't comply with the regs....

Can you post a picture of the fuseboard?

From rcd readings looks like a high integrity board. Upstairs sockets won't be used out of doors, maybe he is on an old set of Regs

 

[Octopus]

From rcd readings looks like a high integrity board. Upstairs sockets won't be used out of doors, maybe he is on an old set of Regs

Hum.......... 16th edition probably... so no way to deal with the Part P then .... lets hope the OP posts the picky

 

[Pete999]

So the upstairs sockets aren't protected by a RCD - why not? The installation doesn't comply with the regs....

Can you post a picture of the fuseboard?

He was a kitchen fitter, you can't expect it to be right when you employ those cowboys to do electrical work.

 

[Octopus]

Wonder if its a plastic CU?

 

[Jeff.wd]

So the upstairs sockets aren't protected by a RCD - why not? The installation doesn't comply with the regs....

Can you post a picture of the fuseboard?

Hi again, kitchen sockets should read kitchen and downstairs sockets, house sockets should read upstairs sockets!!

 

[Jeff.wd]

He was a kitchen fitter, you can't expect it to be right when you employ those cowboys to do electrical work.

Kitchen fitter did not do any electrical work, electrical company did all electrics.

 

[westward10]

Blanks look like he found them in a skip. The "house sockets" circuit requires rcd protection. Wouldn't mind seeing inside it.

 

[Darkwood]

Im betting there was a earth leakage fault with the upstairs sockets existing, there is absolutely no reason to segregate them away from any rcd protection otherwise... no self respecting qualified competent electrician would do what this 'electrician' has done.

 

[Darkwood]

PS I bet he drilled through the upstairs socket circuit hence its not on a rcd

also to note, they haven't balanced the lighting across the rcd's so next time a lamp pops the whole house lighting is possibly effected.

 

[Anthony S]

Electrical company don't know how to fill out the Certificate correctly.

 

[Jeff.wd]

H

Im betting there was a earth leakage fault with the upstairs sockets existing, there is absolutely no reason to segregate them away from any rcd protection otherwise... no self respecting qualified competent electrician would do what this 'electrician' has done.

They did say there was a neutral fault on the upstairs sockets, could this be the reason. Could that simply be a badly wired plug?

 

[westward10]

My brother had a similar thing on his kitchen a few years ago, earthing conductor was loose at pme terminal, must have been like it years and someone must have inadvertently moved it.

 

[EastAnglian]

That image hardly inspires confidence, apart from the fact that the "house" sockets do not have RCD protection as previoulsy mentioned. Ii doesn't help us with your original question, but it gives us an idea of how your 'electician' spells quality!

 

[westward10]

H

They did say there was a neutral fault on the upstairs sockets, could this be the reason. Could that simply be a badly wired plug?

Definitely the reason that needs sorting out.

 

[Jeff.wd]

PS I bet he drilled through the upstairs socket circuit hence its not on a rcd

See reply below, they mentioned a neutral fault after the cable had been drilled, but the fault downstairs appeared after all the work had been completed.

 

[Octopus]

You need to get them to explain why one circuit is not rcd protected.....

 

[Leesparkykent]

A floating earth somewhere.

 

[Anthony S]

Crap workmanship by the sounds of it, the finishing touches with regards the Certificate and Labeling of the Consumer Unit say it all.

 

[Jeff.wd]

PS I bet he drilled through the upstairs socket circuit hence its not on a rcd

also to note, they haven't balanced the lighting across the rcd's so next time a lamp pops the whole house lighting is possibly effected.

All the cables from the main board, go directly up and into the ceiling cavity, so there will no wiring from the upstairs sockets passing through the kitchen.

 

[Jeff.wd]

All the cables from the main board, go directly up and into the ceiling cavity, so there will no wiring from the upstairs sockets passing through the kitchen.

 

[Darkwood]

Im sorry but a fault is a fault, if it has a neutral fault it should not be re-energised until it has been found and rectified, it may be signs of a more dangerous situation, this is not a professional approach to slap it back on and tell you, he should have hi-lighted the issue and expressed it requires correction before it can be energised, whether this was a permanent repair or a temp' to get the sockets back on while a quote was done for the full repair is 2 possible options but to energise a faulty circuit is not IMHO a responsible action from a qualified person.

 

[Octopus]

The answer could be simply that there is a N-E fault on the upstairs circuit and this is causing the RCD to trip.

You need a spark with an earth clamp meter, a MFT and the competence to use them both....

 

[The Ghost]

Yeh 80% figures max Zs, and three light ccts in box and two on cert

don't know how to fill out the Certificate correctly.

 

[Darkwood]

A N/E fault still warrants rectification before its energised, considering there has been a board change, all circuits should have been tested prior to the change and any issues included in the quote for the work, to find a fault then re-energise it after the board change is arris about face and poor work ethics from any supposed qualified competent electrician.

 

[Jeff.wd]

Thank very much for all your help and advice, these lads genuinely want to resolve the problem, although some critical and concerning comments, I will show them this thread, a friend kindly suggested posting on here for independent thoughts and advice.
Please keep posting more thoughts and comments.

 

[westward10]

I suspect the neutral/earth fault is existing and has nothing to do with the kitchen frolics.

 

[Darkwood]

Please give us any feedback, as regards my comments and to further your understanding, a N/E fault more than often won't pose an actual risk to yourself as such but there are situations where a N/E fault is definately a cause for concern, this cannot be comfirmed with just a meter reading and requires further investigation hence my concerns that it has been re-energised although I am in the party of thinking that any N/E fault should not be energised until it has been corrected regardless whether the fault was new or pre-existing.

 

[Jeff.wd]

I suspect the neutral/earth fault is existing and has nothing to do with the kitchen frolics.

Please give us any feedback, as regards my comments and to further your understanding, a N/E fault more than often won't pose an actual risk to yourself as such but there are situations where a N/E fault is definately a cause for concern, this cannot be comfirmed with just a meter reading and requires further investigation hence my concerns that it has been re-energised although I am in the party of thinking that any N/E fault should not be energised until it has been corrected regardless whether the fault was new or pre-existing.

Thanks again, and I will certainly reply to let you know the outcome.

 

[Wilko]

View attachment 34925

Is it just me or is the r2 for the RFCs too low, measuring bonding or a fault or ... And the R1+R2 for the RFCs (neatly typed in the R1+R1 column ...) is too high ?

 

[Anthony S]

Thank very much for all your help and advice, these lads genuinely want to resolve the problem, although some critical and concerning comments, I will show them this thread, a friend kindly suggested posting on here for independent thoughts and advice.
Please keep posting more thoughts and comments.

In all honesty, the lads who genuinely want to resolve this problem shouldn't of been touching electrics in the first instance.
You should pay for a registered Electrician to come out and find the issues, put them right and then you should counter charge.

 

[Octopus]

Is it just me or is the r2 for the RFCs too low, measuring bonding or a fault or ... And the R1+R2 for the RFCs (neatly typed in the R1+R1 column ...) is too high ?

I would be interested to compare actual readings with those on the cert.

Wonder what the scope or description of works says on the first page?

 

[The Ghost]

I was thinking the r2 is too low

 

[R G]

As already said , tell them you will employ an independent electrician in if the problems not sorted , which may be a you're best bet in the long run anyway..