Would this be classed as a special location?

[mpspark]

Need a little advice please guys!
My wife is a dog groomer and she wants me to set up our 8ft x 8ft wooden shed as a grooming salon. That's ok but she also wants to be able to be able to 'bath' the dogs in there as well, using a 'booster bath'.


She says she would also needs some sockets, which would obviously be less than 3m away from zone 1. I know this would not be ok in a location containing a bath/shower, but my question is would a booster bath such as this be classed as a bath, or should it be treated more like it would be for a sink in a utility room?
What do you think?

 

[highspark]

Special location regs definately.

 

[CrazyScozzese]

Would it be S705 if animals are involved?

 

[Rauer]

Is it on a plug or hard wired?

 

[mpspark]

At the moment it is on a plug, so I guess it's outside of Part P, however I would want it to be hard wired if we were to do this seriously and have a booster bath installed.
As the shed is in the garden, it is a special location but by adding one of these booster baths, does it then need to be treated as if it was a bathroom rather than just a shed with power?

 

[colshaws]

I would think it should be the same as a sink in a utility room becuase your wife is not getting in the bath as she would with a bath/shower but standing next to it with her hands in it (as in a sink). Therefore treat as a utility room, RCD protection etc.

 

[mpspark]

Thats what I was wondering. So many groomers just use a sink to bathe dogs then use towels and a hairdryer to dry them on the adjacent worktop!

 

[highspark]

I would think it should be the same as a sink in a utility room becuase your wife is not getting in the bath as she would with a bath/shower but standing next to it with her hands in it (as in a sink). Therefore treat as a utility room, RCD protection etc.

Although not livestock surely the dog would have to be considered in this. I'd say treat it as a bathroom.

 

[colshaws]

So if you use a baby bath do you have to use that in a bathroom?

 

[highspark]

So if you use a baby bath do you have to use that in a bathroom?

A rhetorical question there. Your response was "she will only be standing next to it with her hands in it" so it should be o.k. Yes but what about the dog? Treat it as a special location and you won't go wrong anywhere.

 

[Silly Sausage]

If you classed it as a bathroom surely the bath thing would need to be fixed, otherwise you could it move to within <3m of a socket outlet (?).

 

[CrazyScozzese]

I doubt you would use a hose to wash your baby, in a small shed with sockets at a distance from your e-zone, where the floor and walls and you are liable to get wet, and a big unit (of a dog) could tip the whole lot over. How is it heated in winter?

Oh, wait a minute, memories of growing up in the highlands are coming back to me.

 

[highspark]

If you classed it as a bathroom surely the bath thing would need to be fixed, otherwise you could it move to within 3m

Exactly fix the bath and treat it as a bathroom. I doubt a portable bath in an 8ft by 8ft shed with sockets will be covered under the regs.

 

[mpspark]

Is there a way to temporarily isolate the bath from the rest of the shed when a dog is being bathed, so that the rest of the shed is effectively outside the 'bathroom' / special location?

 

[brman]

I have no experience but am curious about this.
I am assuming the original questions was "how to I prevent my wife electricuting herself?" rather than "how do I get a dog bath next to a socket without breaking the regs?"

How about a partition down the middle of the shed (with a door). Electrics one side and dog bath the other?

btw. I am not clear if the bath thing itself needs electrics?

 

[mpspark]

Obviously I don't want my wife to be in danger. I don't want a bath next to a socket either, nor do I want to disregard the regs.
My question was really whether the proposed setup constituted a special location, i.e. a bathroom, considering that the booster bath that is used to bath dogs uses no electricity and can in no way immerse a dog (or anything else for that matter) as it is not enclosed on all sides.
Dogs simply have their hair washed, very much like we might when we go to the barbers.

 

[brman]

Sorry, that 1st question was tongue in cheek, I wasn't trying to suggest you were a cowboy!

Just that dogs like to shake themselves dry (unlike humans at hairdressers) and if they are going to be doing that I'd probably be concerned about having sockets within reach.

So special location or not, a physical barrier between "bath" and sockets sounds a good idea. I take it partitioning the shed doesn't appeal?

 

[mpspark]

No need for apologies, I didn't think you were suggesting anything by it.
I was planning to use weatherproof sockets to protect against moisture from 'shaking dogs'.
I can't erect a barrier unfortunately, as it wouldn't be practical; the bath itself is approx 2' 6" wide and the shed is only 8' wide. It would effectively cut the shed in half!
Anyone know a good method of joining two sheds together?

 

[Rauer]

I've heard wood works well

 

[mpspark]

Thanks everyone, you have confirmed what I guess I already knew; the booster bath would classify the shed as a bathroom and at 8x8 it is too small to have sockets in there as well.
There's nothing for it, I'm gonna have to either get another shed for the bath, or replace the existing one.
It's only money I guess...
Thanks again, as always!

 

[ian.settle1]

At the moment it is on a plug, so I guess it's outside of Part P, however I would want it to be hard wired if we were to do this seriously and have a booster bath installed.
As the shed is in the garden, it is a special location but by adding one of these booster baths, does it then need to be treated as if it was a bathroom rather than just a shed with power?

Think you will find it will come under Part P as unless you apply for change of use it will be still classified as domestic also i would do some checking as local council might be funny about running a business like this from your home.

 

[hermetic]

IEE regs used to say, "In a room with a FIXED bath or shower" Is this still the case? Obviously RCD protection and waterproof fittings (upvc conduit perhaps?)
would be a good idea. As long as you own your home it is no business of the local council until a neighbour makes a complaint! Remember they are our SERVANTS, not our masters!!!

 

[Engineer54]

IEE regs used to say, "In a room with a FIXED bath or shower" Is this still the case? Obviously RCD protection and waterproof fittings (upvc conduit perhaps?)
would be a good idea. As long as you own your home it is no business of the local council until a neighbour makes a complaint! Remember they are our SERVANTS, not our masters!!![/QUOTE]


You ever tried telling them that?? lol!! But you are right, it's just that they don't usually quite see it that way, ...Quite the opposite in fact!!! lol!!

 

[wildgoose]

This will kick it off again I'm sure

Question: Is the house supply TNCS ???

 

[mpspark]

Er...yes...anyone for an 'exporting PME' thread?

 

[hermetic]

You can't export PME mate, there's an embargo on it, but I got a mate who stuffs containers at Harwich, and I could tip him a wink if you want.:single ****:

 

[mpspark]

I thought that you can't export PME as well, although I read somewhere that that only applies if there are extraneous conductive parts in the place you are exporting to, i.e. you cannot extend the equipotential zone outside. My wooden shed has no extraneous conductive parts at all, so in that case shouldn't I be able to export PME if I choose to?

 

[Engineer54]

Please read this ''STICKY'' thread, it will clear up some of the Myths that you've heard and is still being perpetuated by the numerous scaremongers of our electrical world!! lol!!

http://www.electriciansforums.net/e...159-good-guide-exported-pme-outbuildings.html

 

[hermetic]

This is a very sore argument, in fact, if you run a sub main to a CU in your shed with a RCD it is really no different to wiring an extension or extra room to your house. This is an argument of interpretation of regulations rather than one of common sense, which we all know is anything but common! When part P came out I was part of a campaign run by an ex government advisor on electrical matters to try and stop its introduction, so as you might guess, I am not registered for part P, nor ever will be, even though I have a C&G Nat diploma in electrical engineering. When it came to wiring my own shed I ran a 2.5mm t/e in conduit to a 2 way mcb CU with an RCD, and at the house end, I fitted a fused spur with a flex and plugged it into a 13 amp socket. In other words, it is a very posh, very safe extension lead, that also is outside the scope of part P ( CUE flamewar)

 

[Engineer54]

This is a very sore argument, in fact, if you run a sub main to a CU in your shed with a RCD it is really no different to wiring an extension or extra room to your house. This is an argument of interpretation of regulations rather than one of common sense, which we all know is anything but common! When part P came out I was part of a campaign run by an ex government advisor on electrical matters to try and stop its introduction, so as you might guess, I am not registered for part P, nor ever will be, even though I have a C&G Nat diploma in electrical engineering. When it came to wiring my own shed I ran a 2.5mm t/e in conduit to a 2 way mcb CU with an RCD, and at the house end, I fitted a fused spur with a flex and plugged it into a 13 amp socket. In other words, it is a very posh, very safe extension lead, that also is outside the scope of part P ( CUE flamewar)

I can't really see that this has anything to do with Part Pee at all. More to do with electrical theory....

 

[Engineer54]

I thought that you can't export PME as well, although I read somewhere that that only applies if there are extraneous conductive parts in the place you are exporting to, i.e. you cannot extend the equipotential zone outside. My wooden shed has no extraneous conductive parts at all, so in that case shouldn't I be able to export PME if I choose to?

Check out this long Sticky thread, it will tell you what you can and can't do, along with dispelling a lot of the Myths and scaremongery that surround this subject....


A good guide For 'exported PME' and outbuildings!

 

[mpspark]

Thanks Engineer54, I knew I read something about this previously but lost the link to this guide. That clears things up nicely thanks and makes total sense!

 

[Guitarist]

Can you just confirm that this is a plastic stand-alone bath and the dogs are rinsed with a hosepipe, or is it warm water pumped from a container and recirculated?

 

[mpspark]

It is a standalone bath and hot / cold water would be supplied externally via twin hose pipes and a mixer nozzle. The waste water would drain via a waste hose into the main drain.

 

[Guitarist]

It is not really a zone containing a fixed bath or shower (just a glorified plastic bucket), plus you (or your wife) as the user are not having your body resistance significantly reduced the way you would by actually having a bath or shower. Ofc, you will be getting wet hands but this is really just a garden shed with hosepipes in and no extraneous conductive parts. It sounds like common sense must prevail here, ie supply the shed via RCD and make sure everything is IP 67 rated. Others may disagree...