Downlighters

[Sinetronix]

Hi, going to install 12 JCC leg 6 downlighters, just wondering as it's a vaulted ceiling, roughly 13 degrees, is it worth the extra money to the customer for the ones which have 'eyeball' adjustment?

 

[Octopus]

If you fit fixed down lights, you will be swapping them out very soon afterwards .. Jmo

 

[NDG Elecs]

13° is quite gentle. I would be tempted to just ensure the lamps have a decent beam angle myself. But it is up to the customer at the end of the day.

 

[Sinetronix]

Think the JCC's are 36 degree beam and they're 450 lumens, so good spread and very bright. There is about £15 difference between the price of each fitting though for the eyeballs.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

LED hut advertise their 36degree lamps as having a 'narrow' beam, they also sell 60 degree ones that may be worth looking at.

 

[Octopus]

Is this for your place or a customer?

 

[uksparks]

I've got 7 titable LED6 to fit next week and 24 LED10, the titable are all going on the ceiling with beaux Windows. I held different lights up and it shines in your eye.

I fit a lot of JCC down lights, probably fitted over 300 in the last year.

 

[uksparks]

The JCC is 20 degrees tiltable with 60 degree beam angle

 

[Andy78]

LED hut advertise their 36degree lamps as having a 'narrow' beam, they also sell 60 degree ones that may be worth looking at.

I would second this. 36 degrees is a very focused beam and not a great spread of light. I generally go for between 45 and 60, the sealed unit ones I generally fit are 50 degrees.

I would fit a gimbal fitting in this situation as the ceiling slope warrants it.

 

[davesparks]

Eco star down lights have a rather good beam angle coupled with an even distribution of light across the width of the beam.
And are available in a tilt version of you require that.

 

[NDG Elecs]

The Enlite E8's are 60° I seem to recall, and am certain they do an adjustable version. They are 8W and around 550 lumen too. And they are the quickest downlights I have had the pleasure to install. Still not convinced tilty ones are needed on such a shallow pitch myself, suppose it partly depends on the nature of the room they are going in and whether you are likely to be sitting at the wrong angle to them as it were.

Beam angle, or lack of it, is also dependant on the height of the ceiling in my view. A higher ceiling can get away with narrower beams as the light can spread nicely with the extra couple of feet. Ceilings that are 2.4m high warrant a wider beam angle lamp.

 

[Octopus]

The Enlite E8's are 60° I seem to recall, and am certain they do an adjustable version. They are 8W and around 550 lumen too. And they are the quickest downlights I have had the pleasure to install. Still not convinced tilty ones are needed on such a shallow pitch myself, suppose it partly depends on the nature of the room they are going in and whether you are likely to be sitting at the wrong angle to them as it were.

Beam angle, or lack of it, is also dependant on the height of the ceiling in my view. A higher ceiling can get away with narrower beams as the light can spread nicely with the extra couple of feet. Ceilings that are 2.4m high warrant a wider beam angle lamp.

Or for the down lights to be closer together!

 

[HappyHippyDad]

I've got 7 titable LED6 to fit next week and 24 LED10, the titable are all going on the ceiling with beaux Windows. I held different lights up and it shines in your eye.

I fit a lot of JCC down lights, probably fitted over 300 in the last year.

I have used these before as well and think they are absolutely fantastic!!

 

[Midwest]

FGLED10's have a 60' beam angle. Think tilt ones would look pants on a vaulted ceiling, just my opinion. Only seen them illuminating features on a wall?

 

[NDG Elecs]

Or for the down lights to be closer together!

Yep that option too! Although sometimes I find a room has a maximum number of spots before they start to look a bit too crowded. Then there are ceiling timbers which are often right in the line of where you wanna be going, but that's another story!

 

[wildgoose]

Fitted lots of lights to angled ceilings. Always advise the customer on having the swivel version, otherwise you can get an annoying glare. Lighting vertically downwards won't normally create this issue providing the beam angle isn't too wide of course!!

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[djelectric]

Can I ask where you all learnt about the different types of lighting. I have never paid much attention to beam angles etc. Is there a guide to lighting of some sort that anyone could recommend or did you just learn from experience? I normally just pick downlights without looking at the details other than the wattage, fire rating and ip rating.. Are there rules for positioning also or is it just preference? Thanks in advance..

 

[davesparks]

Can I ask where you all learnt about the different types of lighting. I have never paid much attention to beam angles etc. Is there a guide to lighting of some sort that anyone could recommend or did you just learn from experience? I normally just pick downlights without looking at the details other than the wattage, fire rating and ip rating.. Are there rules for positioning also or is it just preference? Thanks in advance..

I learned about beam angles and the inverse square law which applies to them in secondary school physics lessons.

The rest I learned from experience

 

[Phil Thompson]

I'd just explain the 2 options and price difference to the client, ensuring that they fully understand that if they choose option 1 and aren't happy once installed that it will then cost them £--- to change later.

If the client is hard work and I want the job then I would be inclined to inflate the price of option 1 so as option 2 doesn't sound as expensive.

 

[Adam W]

Can I ask where you all learnt about the different types of lighting. I have never paid much attention to beam angles etc. Is there a guide to lighting of some sort that anyone could recommend or did you just learn from experience? I normally just pick downlights without looking at the details other than the wattage, fire rating and ip rating.. Are there rules for positioning also or is it just preference? Thanks in advance..

Personally I learned from doing stage lighting at school, but there is plenty of free information available online if you look for it.

If you look at this site under the section for 'beam angles' it gives an illustration of how using bulbs with wider beam angles will only give the same intensity on the floor when they are overlapped. This might seem like using lights with narrow beam angles is a simpler option to achieve the same effect, but it's also important to consider shadows - you're not just trying to get as much light into a room as possible, you're trying to eliminate shadows. Notice in the picture how with the narrow beam angles the room is only lit fully when the light gets to the floor - anything above there, say a table, and if you're not directly under a light you'll be in the dark, and when you are under a light you'll have a bright spot of light on the top of your head, like you're being 'beamed up' or you're in the video for Bohemian Rhapsody. This is because a single point of light will only light a single dimension, making things look flat. If you want to light something up 3 dimensionally you'll need to light from different angles, such as overlapping the beams or using a softer source like a lampshade or light reflected from a surface.

Think about the definition of the beam - if you've got a sharply defined beam of light, say from an MR16, you'll also get a sharply defined shadow. This famously makes jewellery 'sparkle', but not every lighting situation is lighting a jewellery shop - using the same lights in a room may well just create bright circles of light on the floor while the rest of the room appears dark.

Consider a kitchen, with work surfaces around the outside. A fluorescent strip light in the middle may not look elegant but the light from it will reflect off the cabinets and all around the room. Replacing a central fluorescent strip with downlighters might look more 'modern' but, as in the picture on the website, it'll be lighting the floor in the middle instead of the worktops. Angle the spots outwards towards the worktops and when you're standing at the worktop you'll have a perfectly cast, crisp shadow right over what you're trying to work on. In this situation if you can't have the spots directly over the worktops (this will still cast shadows underneath what you're working on and make it appear one dimensional so it's not ideal) it would be better to use lights under the cabinets.

In response to the example in this thread it was mentioned that angling the spots into the room may result in the lights shining in people's eyes.
Consider a situation where you want to see who someone is in the dark. Shining a torch in their face will light it up really well so the person holding the torch can make out who they are, but from their point of view they'll be dazzled so won't be able to see anything. This illustrates how you need to consider where the light is coming from, while at the same time considering anything that might get in the way to cast a shadow.

As you can see from this, downlighters aren't a one size fits all solution and can cause a lot of problems. If you're not careful you can end up with a room which looks like it's being lit with a load of torches in the ceiling.

 

[gutterball]

great explanation.

 

[djelectric]

Personally I learned from doing stage lighting at school, but there is plenty of free information available online if you look for it.

If you look at this site under the section for 'beam angles' it gives an illustration of how using bulbs with wider beam angles will only give the same intensity on the floor when they are overlapped. This might seem like using lights with narrow beam angles is a simpler option to achieve the same effect, but it's also important to consider shadows - you're not just trying to get as much light into a room as possible, you're trying to eliminate shadows. Notice in the picture how with the narrow beam angles the room is only lit fully when the light gets to the floor - anything above there, say a table, and if you're not directly under a light you'll be in the dark, and when you are under a light you'll have a bright spot of light on the top of your head, like you're being 'beamed up' or you're in the video for Bohemian Rhapsody. This is because a single point of light will only light a single dimension, making things look flat. If you want to light something up 3 dimensionally you'll need to light from different angles, such as overlapping the beams or using a softer source like a lampshade or light reflected from a surface.

Think about the definition of the beam - if you've got a sharply defined beam of light, say from an MR16, you'll also get a sharply defined shadow. This famously makes jewellery 'sparkle', but not every lighting situation is lighting a jewellery shop - using the same lights in a room may well just create bright circles of light on the floor while the rest of the room appears dark.

Consider a kitchen, with work surfaces around the outside. A fluorescent strip light in the middle may not look elegant but the light from it will reflect off the cabinets and all around the room. Replacing a central fluorescent strip with downlighters might look more 'modern' but, as in the picture on the website, it'll be lighting the floor in the middle instead of the worktops. Angle the spots outwards towards the worktops and when you're standing at the worktop you'll have a perfectly cast, crisp shadow right over what you're trying to work on. In this situation if you can't have the spots directly over the worktops (this will still cast shadows underneath what you're working on and make it appear one dimensional so it's not ideal) it would be better to use lights under the cabinets.

In response to the example in this thread it was mentioned that angling the spots into the room may result in the lights shining in people's eyes.
Consider a situation where you want to see who someone is in the dark. Shining a torch in their face will light it up really well so the person holding the torch can make out who they are, but from their point of view they'll be dazzled so won't be able to see anything. This illustrates how you need to consider where the light is coming from, while at the same time considering anything that might get in the way to cast a shadow.

As you can see from this, downlighters aren't a one size fits all solution and can cause a lot of problems. If you're not careful you can end up with a room which looks like it's being lit with a load of torches in the ceiling.

Thanks for taking the time to write this up Adam, this is very helpful and makes perfect sense. I think I'll be taking a different approach to lighting in future.


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