Electric boilers - how is this going to work.

[LightGEN]

<Snip>
I thought it was all canned due to lack of funding... but I see it is still an outside chance of being built... I did see though, that due to only two tides a day, it'll only produce power for 14hrs a day... lets hope we can re-work the tides to coincide with Coronation Street and kettles going on !

Large scale battery storage is definitely part of the solution... but again, we're many many years away from this.

As the Swansea project stands, there are a number of large commercial consumers who have indicated a willingness to commit to a supply agreement; work is on-going to gain adequate commitments for funding to than be made available ....the project has changed from one seeking state funding to one seeking commercial funding, which could be regarded as a better outcome - if it can generate electricity at competitive enough rates to attract enough large consumers that it can gain funding, it's more likely to be successful. Tidal Lagoon Power hopes to have adequate commitments in place by the end of this year in order to move forward. Based on what I've read on the subject I'd say that 'outside chance' significantly underestimates the current position but we'll clearly see how it all plays out.
Lagoons generate as the tide flows in and as it flows out - there are four 2.5 hour generation gaps per 24 hour cycle, the timing of those being on predictable tidal cycle of course.
Differing generation systems can't be looked at in isolation - they work as a whole - like wind and solar, tidal lagoons would work in tandem with types of generation which can easily be switched in and out, as needed - such as pumped storage and gas turbines. Longer term, storage technologies will likely replace gas turbines but there's nothing to say that gas turbines can't be retained on a standby basis. The telly isn't going to go off just because a tidal lagoon is at a generating lull or the wind isn't blowing - no one would design a system which allowed that to happen.
As for energy storage, as I noted earlier, 'molten salts' thermal storage systems are already in operation - those retain heat in the form of 'molten salts' ...as the name suggests. The heat can be used for heating or to generate steam in order to drive steam turbine generators. Large scale battery storage is here now! In December 2017 Tesla commissioned a 100MW battery storage plant near to Jamestown, north of Adelaide, in Australia. That system can fully supply 30,000 homes for around an hour ...but it's intended to stabilise the supply from a wind farm and other sources, rather than work in isolation. Similar but smaller systems are installed in Southern California, Hawaii, New Zealand, here in the UK and on several Pacific islands. When it comes to battery storage, I suspect that some domestic level storage might become common in the future ....there as been some discussion about using people's own electric vehicles for this purpose but I'm not convinced about the practicality of that.
Anyway, this has become a rather lengthy and detailed side discussion ....it's something I tend to follow closely.

 

[Bobster]

I wouldn't like to see a fire at one of these large battery installations.

Does anyone have the lifespan info on the batteries they're using?

The little research I've done on electric car batteries (I suspect the large battery installations have a similar technology) are that they only last around 7 years before needing to be replaced. (In the case of a car, from what I have read, at a greater cost than the car itself at this point).

I read up on this a few years ago now mind, an with tech improving at the rate it does, is probably out of date information.

 

[LightGEN]

I wouldn't like to see a fire at one of these large battery installations.

Does anyone have the lifespan info on the batteries they're using?

The little research I've done on electric car batteries (I suspect the large battery installations have a similar technology) are that they only last around 7 years before needing to be replaced. (In the case of a car, from what I have read, at a greater cost than the car itself at this point).

I read up on this a few years ago now mind, an with tech improving at the rate it does, is probably out of date information.

Most EV manufacturers provide an 8 year/100,000 mile warranty on the battery - it seems fair to assume that most will outlast both of those figures by a comfortable margin.
EV battery replacement is still at a very early stage in the adoption cycle. A replacement battery for a Nissan Leaf will cost you USD
US$6,200 for 24 kWh, US$7,600 for 30 kWh and US$7,800 for 40 kWh. Nissan anticipates that recycling old batteries will help to reduce those costs.
I expect that third parties will eventually step into the EV battery refurbishment market, once volumes are adequate. No doubt increased manufacturer production volume will drive down the cost of replacement batteries as well ....and there's a race to both improve and find batteries based on lower cost materials, which should improve the position as well.
That 30kWh Nissan battery adds US7.8cents per mile to the operating cost (assuming it lasts for 100k miles).
Some manufacturers provide the battery on a lease basis, so you just swap it out and continue paying the monthly lease cost.

Actually, I see that Nissan is offering refurbished batteries for $2850 for older Leaf models now.

Electric Car Battery FAQ. Replacement, questions, and cost - Drive Green - https://drive-green.co.uk/ev-info/electric-car-battery-faq/

 

[Zerax]

Great information LightGen... I love reading your posts !

I really hope that we can get Tidal Lagoon Power working, but my 'guesstimate' is that even if all outstanding issues are resolved, it'll be at least 10 years away and probably more... one of the issues with all these schemes is that it's still way cheaper to produce power from fossil fuels ! If we tripled the price of electricity, you'd see a large number of schemes take off almost overnight !

Another issue with these renewable schemes is that most of them cannot be switched on when we want them... so when you're planning the entire supply, you need to look at the worst case scenario... i.e. it's dark so no solar, there's no wind, we're at slack water at half the tidal lagoons etc etc.... all this means that we need to maintain other reliable sources. Nuclear is not great at this as it's not easy to switch on and off.

Battery storage will certainly help, but it's mega expensive right now... I don't know of any grid-scale schemes in the UK right now. (I'm aware that there are some in the world, but the economics don't work for us)

I still think that we're decades away from where we should probably be right now !

A large new Lidl has just been built near me and I notice that it has a lovely large single sloped roof... ideal for solar panels ! Have a guess how many they have on it ? None !!! They haven't even oriented the building so that they could be fitted at a later date !!! As a country, we aren't even thinking about these things...

And don't forget that the population goes up by about ⅓ million every year ! We may never catch up...

 

[Zerax]

...Actually, I see that Nissan is offering refurbished batteries for $2850 for older Leaf models now....

I wish we could buy them for that in the UK !

 

[Intoelectrics]

One of the larger users of liquid fuel and gas are the motor trade. They have dabbled with hydrogen as an alternative fuel. As we all know, the exhaust from a hydrogen system or motor is warm water. The biggest problems with hydrogen atm is how cheaply it can be produced to compete with what's available, also the transmission of it. could the existing gas network be used?

Hydrogen can also be used to create fusion power. If this gets realised and becomes practical to achieve electricity produced this way will be far cheaper and have an almost unlimited fuel supply. The burning of fossil fuels will be a thing of the past and/or extremely expensive, so its more likely that homes will be all electric. Either way fossil fuels are being used up, so an alternative is required and I can't see any other alternative other than electric.
Unless of course someone comes up with a way to create enough anti matter to be practically useful. Anti matter & matter annihilation is 100% efficient, in that you get 100% energy release. It makes atomic reactions (atomic bombs) look like a fart in a breeze in comparison.

 

[Bobster]

Hydrogen can also be used to create fusion power. If this gets realised and becomes practical to achieve electricity produced this way will be far cheaper and have an almost unlimited fuel supply. The burning of fossil fuels will be a thing of the past and/or extremely expensive, so its more likely that homes will be all electric. Either way fossil fuels are being used up, so an alternative is required and I can't see any other alternative other than electric.
Unless of course someone comes up with a way to create enough anti matter to be practically useful. Anti matter & matter annihilation is 100% efficient, in that you get 100% energy release. It makes atomic reactions (atomic bombs) look like a fart in a breeze in comparison.

I know one of the engineers on the fusion project in France, it's going to be a while of yet, but they're getting closer.

As for anti matter, don't think I'll see it in my lifetime. An you 100% efficiency statment is close but recent studies whichever boffins are looking into it think there's a bias one way or another making it not 100%. Damn close to it though.

 

[snowhead]

A large new Lidl has just been built near me and I notice that it has a lovely large single sloped roof... ideal for solar panels ! Have a guess how many they have on it ? None !!! They haven't even oriented the building so that they could be fitted at a later date !!! As a country, we aren't even thinking about these things...

That may not be a Lidl failing.
It could be they've been refused a feed in connection by the local Network Operator due to capacity issues.

 

[Zerax]

That may not be a Lidl failing.
It could be they've been refused a feed in connection by the local Network Operator due to capacity issues.

So why didn't they at least build it in the right direction ? They could then have added them later when possible. Makes no sense. I think they did the arithmetic and the payback was too long.