general rant....ish

[stanleyblade]

thanx for all the replies, sorry i not answer earlier but my weekend off turned into working , great!! To clear a few things up, the fridge was fitted with moulded 13 amp plug as was the washing machine. The microwave and oven were supplied with cable. all are integrated appliances. the connection in place for fridge was fixed cooker outlet plate as were the washing machine and oven. The connection for the microwave was to be via 13a socket.
However, the manufacturers instructions for the oven and microwave stated "an all pole isolating switch with at least a 3mm contact gap must be available for the installation" These were not availabe, and neither were any fused outlets. This was my main reason for not connecting them up,i was concerned that there was no way to safely isolate the appliances within the kitchen,. i rang the manufacturer and was told that if the plugs were removed and wired directly to cu then if a fault occurred the warranty may be void. I also rang napit tech and explained to them , and was told i was right not to connect them.
At no point was i being a jobsworth or a busybody as someone commented earlier(i wonder what he would of called me had i connected them up without questiion and caused damage,,,, or god forbid someones death?) I had words with the customer and the electrician,as i stated earlier i would rather do the wrong thing for the right reason than just get stuck in, something we fitters get a good slagging off for. in fact he had to change the cabling and outlet for the microwave because it was wrong . I spoke to customer again yesterday as i had to go there instead of having the day off, and again explained to him why i did not want to connect the units, and will also speak to the electrician to apologise if i need to because at no time was i questioning his professional integrity, just explaining my reasons as to why i did not feel comfortable in doing so . I dont feel that i deserve the condescending pat on the head and you fit the kitchen let us do the electric type comment, as i am responsible for connectin appliances and leaving the job in a safe to use condition i either do it right or not at all . I do take on board all comments, good or bad as we learn a lot by our mistakes, and thank you all again for the time spent replying.

 

[Guitarist]

Personally, considering that you were being asked to contravene the regs by not following manufacturers instructions, I think you did the right thing (though I know the electrician wouldn't agree). Always better to be safe than sorry with electrics.

 

[Dave 85]

thanx for all the replies, sorry i not answer earlier but my weekend off turned into working , great!! To clear a few things up, the fridge was fitted with moulded 13 amp plug as was the washing machine. The microwave and oven were supplied with cable. all are integrated appliances. the connection in place for fridge was fixed cooker outlet plate as were the washing machine and oven. The connection for the microwave was to be via 13a socket.
However, the manufacturers instructions for the oven and microwave stated "an all pole isolating switch with at least a 3mm contact gap must be available for the installation" These were not availabe, and neither were any fused outlets. This was my main reason for not connecting them up,i was concerned that there was no way to safely isolate the appliances within the kitchen,. i rang the manufacturer and was told that if the plugs were removed and wired directly to cu then if a fault occurred the warranty may be void. I also rang napit tech and explained to them , and was told i was right not to connect them.
At no point was i being a jobsworth or a busybody as someone commented earlier(i wonder what he would of called me had i connected them up without questiion and caused damage,,,, or god forbid someones death?) I had words with the customer and the electrician,as i stated earlier i would rather do the wrong thing for the right reason than just get stuck in, something we fitters get a good slagging off for. in fact he had to change the cabling and outlet for the microwave because it was wrong . I spoke to customer again yesterday as i had to go there instead of having the day off, and again explained to him why i did not want to connect the units, and will also speak to the electrician to apologise if i need to because at no time was i questioning his professional integrity, just explaining my reasons as to why i did not feel comfortable in doing so . I dont feel that i deserve the condescending pat on the head and you fit the kitchen let us do the electric type comment, as i am responsible for connectin appliances and leaving the job in a safe to use condition i either do it right or not at all . I do take on board all comments, good or bad as we learn a lot by our mistakes, and thank you all again for the time spent replying.

Sorry for implying you were a jobsworth/busybody a bit harsh in hindsight. Having read your last post it sounds like you wern't being particularly unreasoanble. Wiring something like a fridge straight into a flex outlet with no switch is pretty rough.
Personally I put all my sockets/fused spurs/isolators in accessable cupboards near the appliance. Some will argue that you shouldn't do this but I think its the best way.

 

[malcolmsanford]

Sorry for implying you were a jobsworth/busybody a bit harsh in hindsight. Having read your last post it sounds like you wern't being particularly unreasoanble. Wiring something like a fridge straight into a flex outlet with no switch is pretty rough.
Personally I put all my sockets/fused spurs/isolators in accessable cupboards near the appliance. Some will argue that you shouldn't do this but I think its the best way.

This now be an argument of the past when referring to regulation 530.4.2 on how we fit equipment.

This was the reg often quoted with the term " and fixed to the fabric of the building" when arguing whether or not you classed a kitchen cupboard as part of the building fabric, this quote as now been deleted from the above reg and as far as the BS 7671-2008 anywhere is fair game when fixing such equipment.

Of course Accessibility, workmanship etc will still I'm sure be part of an argument

 

[AndyL]

As a domestic cooker would not fall under the scope of BS EN 60204, therefore the regs you quote are for emergency switching and not applicable in this case

These normally fall under the umbrella of Standards , BS EN 50304:2009+A1:2010, BS EN 60350:2009

Those regs are not for BS EN 60204, 537.4.1 specifically says so, they also go on to say that if the switch is for emergency switching it should preferably be coloured red, which is my understanding as to why most cooker switches are red

 

[malcolmsanford]

Well a cooker switch may be red, except of course some chrome models which are not, but I have never seen many that are actually marked "Emergency stop" or with a sign underneath it that indicates it is an emergency stop as in regulation 537.4.2.7 requires

And as a Kitchen switch can not either be latched/restrained in the "off" position, and in a domestic situation you can not afford the situation of "under control of the same person" the same as with "under the supervision" with regards to socket outlets, I have a feeling your arguments about domestic cooker switches being "Emergency" is a little flimsy.

 

[RISElectrical]

From a purely regulatory way of thinking, having the switching for the kitchen appliances in the basement is not against any regulations as far as I am aware. Suggesting a domestic cooker needs emergency switching is ludicrous IMO

As has been said somewhere before on this thread. If the cooker were to burst into flames then the last place I would want to go to isolate it would be within 2 meters and usually the cooker isolator is within 500mm. If this was the recommended place for an emergency stop then I would be thinking thats a stupid place and should in fact like many emergency switching items (gas shut offs etc) be ideally situated along the escape route.