Is this odd . . . . or Not??

[MrChips4291]

I am a first user to the forum. Hopefully you can put my mind at rest.
Quick description of problem.

I have a three-bedroomed semi-detached house built in 1964, thankfully, with plastic sheathed cable.

Recently a 32mp breaker tripped which ran all the sockets in that part of the house, consisting of, about 15 double ganged sockets and a laundry-cupboard water heater.

I employed an electrician to replace the consumer unit and solve the tripping breaker problem.

A good, clean Job done in three hours for which I happily paid his fee.


I asked how the tripping breaker problem was resolved.

Answer:- When he tried both pairs of wire in the new breaker, it tripped. When he removed one pair and insulated them, the circuit was OK.


My questions, please:-

1. As this is now one big spur, is this considered good practice, and safe?
2. If there was a fault on the circuit when wired as a ring circuit, how could it possibly work just by turning it into a spur.

As an ex bank clerk, my skill sets certainly don’t include the mysteries of electrical circuits and would appreciate some independent opinions as to the safety of the house now, and how the circuit can possibly work as a spur if it doesn’t as a ring?

 

[DefyG]

1. No, not good practice (2.5 on a 32A mcb?). Probably safe as it has been disconnected.
2. I suspect it wasn't a 'ring' but 2 radial circuits and the electrician has disconnected the faulty radial circuit although I would expect some sockets on that radial not to be working now?

What is tripping (RCD or MCB?) Did you get a test certificate? does that imply a ring (RFC)?

 

[GBDamo]

All manner of potential issues with this and guessing at the fault is fun but not particularly useful.

I'm assuming your old set up had no RCD.

The things the electrician should have confirmed before starting.

1, That all circuits were complete, rings in particular. This is easily done by testing.

2, That all cables were intact, again all easily done by testing.

The electrician would then be able to quote with confidence on the replacement of the consumer unit and be sure it is fault free on completion.

The alternative to this is to go in blind and inform the customer that there may well be faults and these will need resolving at extra cost.

It looks like the electrician did the latter but didn't inform you of the potential for additional cost, found a fault and bodged a remedy.

A picture of the new consumer unit with the effected circuit highlighted would be useful.

Personally

 

[MrChips4291]

1. No, not good practice (2.5 on a 32A mcb?). Probably safe as it has been disconnected.
2. I suspect it wasn't a 'ring' but 2 radial circuits and the electrician has disconnected the faulty radial circuit although I would expect some sockets on that radial not to be working now?

What is tripping (RCD or MCB?) Did you get a test certificate? does that imply a ring (RFC)?

Well. Thanks sir. It was a mcb that tripped on the original box which also had an rcd which also, originally tripped. I originally turned off all mcds, then reset the rcd and turned on each mcb until I found where the problem was. I.e in the old house wiring. ( I have had two extensions built which each now have their own mcb's etc.
I never thought of asking for a test certificate, and none was offered.

 

[MrChips4291]

All manner of potential issues with this and guessing at the fault is fun but not particularly useful.

I'm assuming your old set up had no RCD.

There was an rcd in the old consumer unit

The things the electrician should have confirmed before starting.

1, That all circuits were complete, rings in particular. This is easily done by testing.

2, That all cables were intact, again all easily done by testing.

The electrician would then be able to quote with confidence on the replacement of the consumer unit and be sure it is fault free on completion.

The alternative to this is to go in blind and inform the customer that there may well be faults and these will need resolving at extra cost.

It looks like the electrician did the latter but didn't inform you of the potential for additional cost, found a fault and bodged a remedy.

A picture of the new consumer unit with the effected circuit highlighted would be useful.

I have attached a photo of the new consumer unit.
I didnt look too closely at the time, but I now see that many of the mcb's are not labelled.
Does it make sense for me to turn off all mcb's and turn each one on again to identify what comes back to life.
I have a feeling that I may have employed someone who didn't have my best interests in mind.

Personally

 

[MrChips4291]

There was an rcd in the old consumer unit

I have attached a photo of the new consumer unit.
I didnt look too closely at the time, but I now see that many of the mcb's are not labelled.
Does it make sense for me to turn off all mcb's and turn each one on again to identify what comes back to life.
I have a feeling that I may have employed someone who didn't have my best interests in mind.

I have also just realised that none of the mcb's are marked as to whether they are on which part of the new extensions.
I think I can be labelled a mug.

 

[GBDamo]

I have also just realised that none of the mcb's are marked as to whether they are on which part of the new extensions.
I think I can be labelled a mug.

If the lack of labelling is indicative of the quality of the install then it may be worth getting someone independent to cast their eye over that.

The lack of testing is also worrying.

Hope you like dogs because it's looking like you've been sold a pup.

(Haven't even mentioned BG either)

 

[Dartlec]

Assuming that only the labelled MCBs are in use, then it does appear that there is a lot of sockets on one 32A breaker.

The fact that there are RCDs in place probably means that there is no immediate safety issue, however unless all those sockets are on one continuous ring then it is not likely to be done as current guidance/best practise would want, and there may be an issue that needs resolving to avoid overloading cables...

It's also unlikely that your cooker has a large enough cable to be safely installed on a 50A breaker - though again with the RCD in place it's unlikely to be an issue other than over a long term of continuous overload, which is unlikely in most domestic circumstances.

Hopefully you weren't charged a top rate for what is effectively a cheap Screwfix special board (nothing wrong with that if charged accordingly).

A certificate that detailed the new circuits and testing should have been provided without asking as it is a standard requirement of such work

Under the current Building Regulations, the change of a consumer unit has to be notified to the local Council building control department and usually that means the person doing it has to be registered as competent to do so.

Do you know if they are registered with either NICEIC, NAPIT, or similar scheme? If not, then they would not be able to notify and should you ever sell it may become an issue during the conveyancing process.

If you are unsure, the best approach now (assuming you don't want to call the installer back in), would be to get an EICR (Electrical Installation Condition Report) by another electrician. which would investigate all the circuits, wiring methods and test continuity of rings, etc.

That would give you some peace of mind going forward at least, and may mean that decisions can be made about how to split circuits more appropriately...

 

[MrChips4291]

Assuming that only the labelled MCBs are in use, then it does appear that there is a lot of sockets on one 32A breaker.

The fact that there are RCDs in place probably means that there is no immediate safety issue, however unless all those sockets are on one continuous ring then it is not likely to be done as current guidance/best practise would want, and there may be an issue that needs resolving to avoid overloading cables...

It's also unlikely that your cooker has a large enough cable to be safely installed on a 50A breaker - though again with the RCD in place it's unlikely to be an issue other than over a long term of continuous overload, which is unlikely in most domestic circumstances.

Hopefully you weren't charged a top rate for what is effectively a cheap Screwfix special board (nothing wrong with that if charged accordingly).

A certificate that detailed the new circuits and testing should have been provided without asking as it is a standard requirement of such work

Under the current Building Regulations, the change of a consumer unit has to be notified to the local Council building control department and usually that means the person doing it has to be registered as competent to do so.

Do you know if they are registered with either NICEIC, NAPIT, or similar scheme? If not, then they would not be able to notify and should you ever sell it may become an issue during the conveyancing process.

If you are unsure, the best approach now (assuming you don't want to call the installer back in), would be to get an EICR (Electrical Installation Condition Report) by another electrician. which would investigate all the circuits, wiring methods and test continuity of rings, etc.

That would give you some peace of mind going forward at least, and may mean that decisions can be made about how to split circuits more appropriately...

Assuming that only the labelled MCBs are in use, then it does appear that there is a lot of sockets on one 32A breaker.

The fact that there are RCDs in place probably means that there is no immediate safety issue, however unless all those sockets are on one continuous ring then it is not likely to be done as current guidance/best practise would want, and there may be an issue that needs resolving to avoid overloading cables...

It's also unlikely that your cooker has a large enough cable to be safely installed on a 50A breaker - though again with the RCD in place it's unlikely to be an issue other than over a long term of continuous overload, which is unlikely in most domestic circumstances.

Hopefully you weren't charged a top rate for what is effectively a cheap Screwfix special board (nothing wrong with that if charged accordingly).

A certificate that detailed the new circuits and testing should have been provided without asking as it is a standard requirement of such work

Under the current Building Regulations, the change of a consumer unit has to be notified to the local Council building control department and usually that means the person doing it has to be registered as competent to do so.

Do you know if they are registered with either NICEIC, NAPIT, or similar scheme? If not, then they would not be able to notify and should you ever sell it may become an issue during the conveyancing process.

If you are unsure, the best approach now (assuming you don't want to call the installer back in), would be to get an EICR (Electrical Installation Condition Report) by another electrician. which would investigate all the circuits, wiring methods and test continuity of rings, etc.

That would give you some peace of mind going forward at least, and may mean that decisions can be made about how to split circuits more appropriately...

Assuming that only the labelled MCBs are in use, then it does appear that there is a lot of sockets on one 32A breaker.

The fact that there are RCDs in place probably means that there is no immediate safety issue, however unless all those sockets are on one continuous ring then it is not likely to be done as current guidance/best practise would want, and there may be an issue that needs resolving to avoid overloading cables...

It's also unlikely that your cooker has a large enough cable to be safely installed on a 50A breaker - though again with the RCD in place it's unlikely to be an issue other than over a long term of continuous overload, which is unlikely in most domestic circumstances.

Hopefully you weren't charged a top rate for what is effectively a cheap Screwfix special board (nothing wrong with that if charged accordingly).

A certificate that detailed the new circuits and testing should have been provided without asking as it is a standard requirement of such work

Under the current Building Regulations, the change of a consumer unit has to be notified to the local Council building control department and usually that means the person doing it has to be registered as competent to do so.

Do you know if they are registered with either NICEIC, NAPIT, or similar scheme? If not, then they would not be able to notify and should you ever sell it may become an issue during the conveyancing process.

If you are unsure, the best approach now (assuming you don't want to call the installer back in), would be to get an EICR (Electrical Installation Condition Report) by another electrician. which would investigate all the circuits, wiring methods and test continuity of rings, etc.

That would give you some peace of mind going forward at least, and may mean that decisions can be made about how to split circuits more appropriately...

Plenty to think about here, for which I duly thank you.
Meanwhile, he charged £350.00 for labour.

 

[hasel5]

Think you had your pants taken down if no cert

 

[mattg4321]

Why is it that almost all terrible consumer unit changes lately are either BG or MK.

Maybe because that’s what screwfix sell?!

You almost never see a Hager or Crabtree consumer unit that’s a total bodge up.

 

[timhoward]

Hopefully you can put my mind at rest.

Sorry that we couldn't.

If you believe the sockets were all on one ring, and one end is now disconnected, and the fault is now not showing that would suggest that to compound matters there is a break in the ring somewhere, otherwise the fault would in fact still show.
However if there were in fact 2 or more radial circuits, and one is now not connected, that would suggest there should be some sockets not working somewhere.
So either way, it's unfortunately going to need looking at again by someone competent.

I'd suggest that you could save some time and money by purchasing a plug in socket tester that does loop tests too (e.g. Kewtech Loopcheck 107), plugging it systematically into every socket in your house, and finding out if any sockets are complaining about anything.

 

[MrChips4291]

Sorry that we couldn't.

If you believe the sockets were all on one ring, and one end is now disconnected, and the fault is now not showing that would suggest that to compound matters there is a break in the ring somewhere, otherwise the fault would in fact still show.
However if there were in fact 2 or more radial circuits, and one is now not connected, that would suggest there should be some sockets not working somewhere.
So either way, it's unfortunately going to need looking at again by someone competent.

I'd suggest that you could save some time and money by purchasing a plug in socket tester that does loop tests too (e.g. Kewtech Loopcheck 107), plugging it systematically into every socket in your house, and finding out if any sockets are complaining about anything.

I have such a device so will try that, thank you.

 

[MrChips4291]

I have such a device so will try that, thank you.

I think i will turn off all the mcbs and see whether all the breakers are correctly marked up by turning them on one by one. I can use the tester at that time.
I will then have more information for a competent electrician to come in.