New requirement for part p schemes

[p11jor]

Anyone heard about this new requirement that you need a level 3 qual to join a part p scheme from July 2011?

Surely this would wipe out alot of current members and new applicants?.......meaning more and more houses are not going to be signed off under part p, as I doubt many sparks are going to down tools for a couple of years and get a evening job stacking shelves whilst they try to gain a qualification that says the can do what they have been doing for the past 10/20/30/40/50 years!

Anyone else have any info on this?

 

[Electricalserv]

oh im sorry didnt realise you were a Napit member that obviously makes me gulable according to you even though im also a NAPIT MEMBER have been for about 6 years and was there when he joined up even went to masfield training area with him for two day assesment where you pretty much keep taking the exam until you get all the answers correct.

Well I'm sure all other Napit members will be made up that you belittle their scheme on a public forum. If you don't gain the 2391 within 12 months you are out. That's how it is whether assessors are letting people if I don't know but that's what it says

 

[Electricalserv]

How can you call yourself the national association of professional inspectors and testers and have people on 2 day courses on full scope. Absolute joke. Reading through I can now see where you are coming from so j do apologise. It's the iso qualification that nApit run themselves. Problem is if those 2 quals 17th edition & 2391 aren't obtained Napit should as they say get rid of rubbish! I'm with everyone else now. And in going to raise this on Monday with my area manager. Absolute joke that I should be competing for work with someone who done a 2 day Napit assessment and waiting 12 months to gain quals I already have. Should be L3 tech cert minimum!

 

[Des 56]

IQ quote
I don't accept that the NICEIC alone 'caused damage to the domestic sector', each scheme has had a hand in that, the NICEIC just get blamed as the more well known operators.

If you couple the shared blame amongst the schemes with the QS system being the cornerstone of Niceic domestic registration, then yes they are very, very, definitely the main culprits for its shambolic development

They used a system that they found was suitable for approved contractors where on larger installations the competence of the individual was verified by the criteria of the applicant for a sparks job

In the domestic sector,the one man band individual competent may now employ myriads of un skilled workers to do a skilled electricans job as long as that individual oversigns for the work

This is usually countered by saying that no Qs would do that because they are taking that responsibility,but that is not in realty how many enterprises would function

I know first hand of the practice of hiring Tom Dick or Harry who has little or no training to do electrical installations in this manner, and under that Niceic Qs umbrella

 

[madmac]

They used a system that they found was suitable for approved contractors where on larger installations the competence of the individual was verified by the criteria of the applicant for a sparks job

In the domestic sector,the one man band individual competent may now employ myriads of un skilled workers to do a skilled electricans job as long as that individual oversigns for the work

Des 56, I'm in total agreement with you on this matter. About 5 years ago I was part of a testing team of 4x Approved Electricians, none of us had 2391, however, we were as you say competent due to us all being SJIB registered and all having completed full apprenticeships and a number of years on the job experience. The company we worked for were using QS managers to sign off all the completion certs. even though most of the jobs we inspected were not compliant with the regs and all their contracts were using labourers to install containment and wiring and even TERMINATING!!! We finally had enough and reported them to the union and that stopped the labourers doing any electrical work, and we reported the company to various different regulators inc. NICEIC but were told that because we worked for the company we couldn't report them only a third party!!! So up and down the country there are lots of PFI schools with dodgy electrics which we were giving code1's against full of children going about there daily business unaware of potential dangers!!!
We also reported this mob to Brian Scadden, who writes the commentaries on the regs. and he was outraged!
The company eventually folded and as per usual nobody was held responsible but plenty of managers/agencies/labourers made plenty of the backs of electricians again and gave the whole country the vicky!!!

 

[Electricalserv]

My problem with this is what makes you an 'electrician' just because the JIB has approved you? Just because you are nvq3 doesn't mean you are competent especially if you do not have the 2391 in conjunction with it! And also the experience. We can all go round in circles with this because the jib say an nvq3 makes you approved whilst my scheme doesnt. But to say your are a competent spark because the jib says so is another tounge and cheak incident. Madmac i have every confidence in you being competent but unfortunately I don't have every confidence in the nvq making anyone competent. Their us so many floors to the qualification that it us undoubtabley questionable

 

[ezzzekiel]

Reading through I can now see where you are coming from so j do apologise. It's the iso qualification that nApit run themselves.

thats the point i was trying to make the Napit version which is called the NA2391 can be used as an alternative to C&G 2391 ive sat both versions of the exams and to be honest the NA2391 is a joke and to be honest a bit of an insult comparing it to the actual 2391, and in my view just another money making scam for the providers, pay your way and you will be allowed entry into the club, this pretty much goes for all the scheme providers and a clampdown is way past due.

just to add the Nvq3 is also a joke and can be easily gained with very little effort from many private providers. Rules need to be changed and tightened up, maybe with the exception of sparks out there with the original 2660? should be excempt they obviously put the time in now

 

[VoltzElectrical]

My problem with this is what makes you an 'electrician' just because the JIB has approved you? Just because you are nvq3 doesn't mean you are competent especially if you do not have the 2391 in conjunction with it! And also the experience. We can all go round in circles with this because the jib say an nvq3 makes you approved whilst my scheme doesnt. But to say your are a competent spark because the jib says so is another tounge and cheak incident. Madmac i have every confidence in you being competent but unfortunately I don't have every confidence in the nvq making anyone competent. Their us so many floors to the qualification that it us undoubtabley questionable

A PROPERLY ADMINISTRATED NVQ LEVEL 3 will confirm COMPETENCY.

 

[madmac]

That's also the point, whether it be NVQ3,2391-10,ETC. simply saying one or the other makes you competent is utter folly! I don't apologise and neither should any other likeminded electrician when I stand by what I've already stated many times on this forum, that to be the fully rounded, competent electrician it requires a greater depth of knowledge than sitting these exams on their own. Anyone can study long enough and just about pass anything in the electrical game given enough time and a brass neck but it takes an apprenticeship and years of on site experience flanked by a tradesman to learn all the aspects of our industry especially the dangerous parts, of which there are many. Good luck to all who have went down the route of fast tracking and have parted with lots of hard earned cash for the priveledge, but out there in the big bad world unless you go it alone and become your own boss unfortunately without some sort of formal, recognised training you wont be taken seriously and that will mean not getting a start.
Now for all the faults of the JIB/SJIB but more so the JIB, I would still class them as the standard bearers for our industry as they were set up in the late sixties by the union (the electricians) and the ECA/SELECT( the mobs) to promote and train the future electricians of this industry, where as the NICEIC/NAPIT/ELECSA and all these training providers/regulators are private,profiteering organisations that do nothing but discredit our trade by watering down standards and ultimately safety all for a quick return!!!!!!!!
I am qualified, I did complete a full apprenticeship and I am more than competent to carry out safe electrical installations from LV to 11KV to 33kv TO 66KV to 132KV to 275KV to 400KV and I still keep my SJIB/ECS/CSCS grade card and qualifications up to date and am still an active member of the union and will always be proud to call myself an Approved Electrician/tradesman/journeyman.

 

[VoltzElectrical]

Madmac, how is 'competency' then to be assessed?

 

[IQ Electrical]

That's also the point, whether it be NVQ3,2391-10,ETC. simply saying one or the other makes you competent is utter folly! I don't apologise and neither should any other likeminded electrician when I stand by what I've already stated many times on this forum, that to be the fully rounded, competent electrician it requires a greater depth of knowledge than sitting these exams on their own. Anyone can study long enough and just about pass anything in the electrical game given enough time and a brass neck but it takes an apprenticeship and years of on site experience flanked by a tradesman to learn all the aspects of our industry especially the dangerous parts, of which there are many. Good luck to all who have went down the route of fast tracking and have parted with lots of hard earned cash for the priveledge, but out there in the big bad world unless you go it alone and become your own boss unfortunately without some sort of formal, recognised training you wont be taken seriously and that will mean not getting a start.
Now for all the faults of the JIB/SJIB but more so the JIB, I would still class them as the standard bearers for our industry as they were set up in the late sixties by the union (the electricians) and the ECA/SELECT( the mobs) to promote and train the future electricians of this industry, where as the NICEIC/NAPIT/ELECSA and all these training providers/regulators are private,profiteering organisations that do nothing but discredit our trade by watering down standards and ultimately safety all for a quick return!!!!!!!!
I am qualified, I did complete a full apprenticeship and I am more than competent to carry out safe electrical installations from LV to 11KV to 33kv TO 66KV to 132KV to 275KV to 400KV and I still keep my SJIB/ECS/CSCS grade card and qualifications up to date and am still an active member of the union and will always be proud to call myself an Approved Electrician/tradesman/journeyman.

I agree with a lot of what you have written, to say that a particular qualification alone deems competence is simply not true.

Does anyone think that holding 2391-10 alone will prove competence?

It's no coincidence that even BS7671:2008 stops short of actually defining competence in terms of qualifications, that's because competence is a melting pot of qualifications, experience and common sense.

I've sacked '2391-10 testers' after 1 night's work when I've looked at submitted test sheets and by the same token, I know a chap that tests to a good standard without the 2391-10, it's all about making an assessment of every attribute.

 

[Electricalserv]

A PROPERLY ADMINISTRATED NVQ LEVEL 3 will confirm COMPETENCY.

Id like to agree but I can't nvq3 alone does not make you competent only in the eyes of the jib. No scheme insists on nvq3. Jib is only there for better pay for worker and health an safety on-site. Whether you are using jib cards on-site building domestic living quarters you still need approval by the labc or a scheme member to sign work off the jib in essence are a governing body for workers health & safety and pay.

 

[VoltzElectrical]

IQ, you make a lot of sense. Any good person will demonstrate their competency on the job. Having the paperwork stands you in good stead to get given the chance to prove it though.

Regards.

 

[madmac]

Cheers Voltz, I'm not saying that we don't use NVQ3 or 2391-10 to acertain competency, all I'm saying is that too many people on here are picking pieces out of the over all trade route to competency and saying that as long as you have this one part then you're competent! Not so, it is the same as one of these graduate engineer lads in the office who come onto site and because of their paper qualifications we have to listen and adhere to what they say and ultimately put into practice what they want and in my experience of people with pieces of paper ONLY and no other hands on experience it always eventually goes t*ts up!!!
It should be competency based on training AND experience and the only way IMO that you can get this is by using electricians that meet the JIB/SJIB standards which have been agreed by US the sparks via our union.

 

[topquark]

Qualifications alone do not prove competence. I've interviewed people before who have degree level qualifications and they've fallen well short of the grade after a few relatively easy questions.

Competence is down to a combination of both applied knowledge and experience. It's surprising how easily some people forget even the basics once they walk out of the exam room! The point has already been made that it's relatively easy to "cram" for an exam and pass.

 

[VoltzElectrical]

Cheers Voltz, I'm not saying that we don't use NVQ3 or 2391-10 to acertain competency, all I'm saying is that too many people on here are picking pieces out of the over all trade route to competency and saying that as long as you have this one part then you're competent! Not so, it is the same as one of these graduate engineer lads in the office who come onto site and because of their paper qualifications we have to listen and adhere to what they say and ultimately put into practice what they want and in my experience of people with pieces of paper ONLY and no other hands on experience it always eventually goes t*ts up!!!
It should be competency based on training AND experience and the only way IMO that you can get this is by using electricians that meet the JIB/SJIB standards which have been agreed by US the sparks via our union.

You make an interesting point about using electricians who meet the standards of the JIB, that brings the discussion full circle. What does a person need to be graded by the JIB? NVQ 3. Some people on here think that by my observation of this criteria, that I some way endorse it over and above other more demanding requirements, such as the 2391. The 2391 is a very demanding qualification, and I applaud anyone who has achieved it, but I don't make the rules.

We all work hard to develop our skills and when approaching our future employers, rely somewhat on pieces of paper held out before us to open doors. It's then down to the individual to prove that they deserve to hold such accreditation by their actions.

 

[ezzzekiel]

Unfortunately there is always going to be the problem of how to prove competancy and is based around the idea of partp unfortunately it is purely a license to print money for the scheme providers and they are at fault there needs to be a better method but it will always come down to the pieces of paper you hold unless a regulator is going to work alongside you forever monitoring your work. So what bits of paper need to be held:
original 2660 gains entry for membership
2330 level 3 with nvq3 gains entry for membership
2382 + 2391 with proven career history gains entry for membership
anyone holding unknown or non standard quals should be given a preliminary defined scope membership.

purely my opinion.

 

[VoltzElectrical]

Unfortunately there is always going to be the problem of how to prove competancy and is based around the idea of partp unfortunately it is purely a license to print money for the scheme providers and they are at fault there needs to be a better method but it will always come down to the pieces of paper you hold unless a regulator is going to work alongside you forever monitoring your work. So what bits of paper need to be held:
original 2660 gains entry for membership
2330 level 3 with nvq3 gains entry for membership
2382 + 2391 with proven career history gains entry for membership
anyone holding unknown or non standard quals should be given a preliminary defined scope membership.

purely my opinion.

Not sure if it's an opinion, as what you have stated here seems to be fact (in terms of what is needed to be deemed to be competent in the eyes of others).
Competency is also measured by what you do competently on site. The paperwork needs to be backed up with actual work.

Can we then surmise that competency consists of PAPER work + ACTUAL WORK?

PAPER + ACTUAL (WORK) = COMPETENCY.

A new equation for the text books?

 

[ezzzekiel]

well everyone seems to have a very simmilar opinion with the exception of the powers that be

 

[madmac]

So what ARE we saying here boys? Surprise surprise that qualifications and training and experience= competent electricians? Well **** me gently!!! Is that not what the traditional apprenticeship provided??? Point proven.

 

[Electricalserv]

Well I can't agree for the reason that I don't have nvq3 and nor do some of you guys have the 2391 qualification that I do have. Maybe if you have both you can be fully satisfied that you are a fully qualified spark. If you have nvq3 you are an approved installation electrician and if you have 2391 you are an approved inspector & tester. I know which one I'd rather be. But that's my opinion as IQ says competency will be proven on site and nobody can say they are fully competent in every aspect of electrical installation and testing from motors to installing twin & earth. It would take years of training & experience!

 

[p11jor]

I think there should be say a 12 month onsite assessments set out from scheme providers, they visit you each month for a day tick off every single scenario then give you a national recognised diploma or that of like..... Minium of 17th edition and some sort of elec qual city & guilds

I did my 2392 got 100% yet I was on here few days ago asking about a small question on testing.... Quals arnt always the answer

Problem is who is going to pay for this

 

[madmac]

p11jor: this sounds awfully like a type of apprenticeship where you are under constant assessment. Electricalserv: just for the record, I am an SJIB Approved Electrician with affiliations of Electrical Fitter,Maintenance Electrician, Installation Electrician, Distribution Networks Electrician and I have 2391-10 17th inspection & testing c&g, 2382 17th wiring regs. c&g, SELECT 17th wiring regs., SVQ level3, ECS assessment,safety passport,WI1 Scottish Power Authorisation 11kv to 400kv,EN1 Scottish Power Authorisation, independent entry to substations with exposed live busbars,SR3&4 Scottish Power Authorisation for permit for work & limited works certificates, IPAF,PASMA,full apprentice papers,AM2 trade certificate,electrical craftsman certificate, HND in electrical engineering and last but not least I am a fully paid up member of the union and have been since I was a first year apprentice.
But according to you it's impossible to achieve all this by working for some company or if you're agency? Well there are many more guys like me out there trying to fight for a better work place for all of us and if we can't even get the balance between training and employment then it's all over and kiss your industry goodnight!

 

[VoltzElectrical]

Goodnight!

 

[Electricalserv]

p11jor:
But according to you it's impossible to achieve all this by working for some company or if you're agency? Well there are many more guys like me out there trying to fight for a better work place for all of us and if we can't even get the balance between training and employment then it's all over and kiss your industry goodnight!

when did I say it's not possible to achieve qualifications whilst working for someone else & agencies? I said you are very union focused. What you are unhappy with I don't know but for me I go to work to earn money and that's that. I have no hidden agender. My point to you was instead of worrying about everyone else focus on yourself and you'll most likely find yourself on better wages or whatever you are looking for. I'd like you to point out where I have said you can't gain qualifications working for someone else???? As I said, you work for someone else and you will always be £ short of your full worth. No1 will employ you unless you can make money. Most likely all them quals where paid for by your government or employers so in my opinion you've done ok. ALOT of people gave to get quals out if their own wallet. Apprentices get the lot on the plate

 

[madmac]

Electricalserv: Unlike you I am very socially concious, and I always try my best to better the conditions of fellow electricians and just for the record I am earning a very high rate of pay compared to the directly employed sparks I'm working with but I am more than prepared to put my head above the parapet to shout and fight for better pay for these boys even if it means that I lose my job because then I will be able to gain full time direct employment on better wages and not have suffer the indignity of being on a minutes notice with an agency! And yes most of the quals. were paid for by either a company or an agency but about a third were paid out of my own pocket, now, in a civillised and respectful environment, we should have to pay for none of these quals. and the companies should as they benefit from them ultimately as they couldn't do any portion of the electrical works that they tendered for unless they could guarantee a skilled and competent workforce!!!
"Apprentices get the lot on a plate"??? And your point is?