New requirement for part p schemes

[Ponty Massive]

Well it's the same as the JIB saying to lots of lads you aren't a electrician until you have nvq3. It works both ways. Until you have the 2391-10 you ain't a competent full scope spark in napits eyes

Well I guess I'll have to remain un-competent for the time being then!

In a different vein, competency and currency IMO also plays a vital role. Many years ago I did a EITB apprenticeship and did 4 years doing ONC & HNC in electrical engineering. Although I still have the bits of paper (in the loft somewhere), I have very vague memories of micro electronics, motor harmonics, binary logic, octal and hexdecimal, quadraphic formulas etc etc but none of these will help me change a CU. I left the industry for almost 8 years and when I decided to return everything had changed, even the colours of the cables.

Installation competency does play a big role and years of experience helps. Regulations change a lot hense the reason I ask a lot of people for their advise, even the new guys

 

[Electricalserv]

I have a assesment booked in for Thursday with niceic but cancelling to join napit which I am applying for tomorow

I am intending to do my 2391 before Xmas so if I am a napit member in the next month then I will never have to do these extra requirements? As long as I am with napit for two years then if I go abroad for a few years etc I can use this 2 years I will get from napit to never have to do this? Is this right?

You will only be a defined scope installer same as kitchen fitter. You would need 2330 level 3, 2360 level 3 or nvq3 as minimum plus 17th and 2391 within 12 months to be full scope. With your quals you are defined I'm afraid

 

[ezzzekiel]

its not saying anyone without 2391 is not competant (but proving competance is the issue with the various qualification routes out there) everyone knows that to pass the 2391 takes a certain ammount of knowledge and if all those who dont have it but are competant then a short course of about 8 weeks costing around £200ish shouldnt be a problem except for those who do not know there stuff, as the 2391 is a sought after qualification then it would simply be a cross to your bow - dont know if its available but maybe an exam sit only for the 2391 should be available for those with enough qualifications/experience to be deemed fit to go straight to exam.

 

[ezzzekiel]

You will only be a defined scope installer same as kitchen fitter. You would need 2330 level 3, 2360 level 3 or nvq3 as minimum plus 17th and 2391 within 12 months to be full scope. With your quals you are defined I'm afraid

not sure on this info i know for a fact my mate joined Napit full scope with only a one week Di qualification, he then gained 17th in first year and to date thats all he has and has been a member for about 4 years now and still dosent know his ar from his elbow yet never has any problems staying a member.

 

[Ponty Massive]

I was going to ask how much it cost and how long it takes

 

[Electricalserv]

not sure on this info i know for a fact my mate joined Napit full scope with only a one week Di qualification, he then gained 17th in first year and to date thats all he has and has been a member for about 4 years now and still dosent know his ar from his elbow yet never has any problems staying a member.

Sorry but what a load of rubbish. I know the requirements because I am part of the scheme. Mocking my scheme wuth il informed information has annoyed me because I know Napit is really strict on competency more than the other 2. If I was not on my phone I would provide you with the written evidence of what you need to be full scope. I will however when I'm home provide it for anyone unsure. You friend would be defined scope fact! Your gulabilty has let you down here. A Di course and he's full scope with Napit LAUGHABLE

 

[Des 56]

You will only be a defined scope installer same as kitchen fitter. You would need 2330 level 3, 2360 level 3 or nvq3 as minimum plus 17th and 2391 within 12 months to be full scope. With your quals you are defined I'm afraid

I was under that impression a few years ago,to be in Napit you had to have done an apprenticeship and hold the 2391
Then it was pointed out to me that.they permit entry as long as any of the requirements are gained within a 12 month

Now to me that was very surprising.
One of the main reasons I joined initially was the impression that you had to be a spark and trained in the traditional manner with apprenticeship and the testing quals etc

It now puzzles mme how it can be ok to be competent for a year without these things then you suddenly become incompetent 12 months after being accepted

I think the numbers game had a great impact on what was an early and commendable stance on training and qualification
It was probably the Niceic enthusiasm and acceptance of the very minimum entry criteria that changed things ( the gov dont like the nics actions one little bit with those minimum requirements) and thats why this level 3 standard is being thrown around

Its already been stated by an earlier poster that its not retrospective so the "never should have been" registered installers wont be affected

Its now too late to change what damage the Niceic have done to the domestic sector to make any difference for many years to come

 

[ezzzekiel]

oh im sorry didnt realise you were a Napit member that obviously makes me gulable according to you even though im also a NAPIT MEMBER have been for about 6 years and was there when he joined up even went to masfield training area with him for two day assesment where you pretty much keep taking the exam until you get all the answers correct.

 

[Big n Daft]

I'm 20 yr plus spark getting back in the game.Quals are:
C&G 236 pt 1&2
C&G Elecs Cert
Contacted Napit and goes like this for full scope:
Assessment
Get your 17th in 6mnths
2391 in 12mnths
When asked if I will be full scope upon joining and passing assessment the answer was yes.

 

[IQ Electrical]

oh im sorry didnt realise you were a Napit member that obviously makes me gulable according to you even though im also a NAPIT MEMBER have been for about 6 years and was there when he joined up even went to masfield training area with him for two day assesment where you pretty much keep taking the exam until you get all the answers correct.

Ah, the 'assessment', is that where the confusion is coming from?

Reading the NAPIT requirements, it seems that you can circumvent the normal entry requirements by 'passing' a NAPIT 'assessment'.

It was all about the numbers game, the strict entry requirements lasted around 1 year until it became obvious that it was having a significant impact on membership numbers.

I don't accept that the NICEIC alone 'caused damage to the domestic sector', each scheme has had a hand in that, the NICEIC just get blamed as the more well known operators.

 

[Electricalserv]

oh im sorry didnt realise you were a Napit member that obviously makes me gulable according to you even though im also a NAPIT MEMBER have been for about 6 years and was there when he joined up even went to masfield training area with him for two day assesment where you pretty much keep taking the exam until you get all the answers correct.

Well I'm sure all other Napit members will be made up that you belittle their scheme on a public forum. If you don't gain the 2391 within 12 months you are out. That's how it is whether assessors are letting people if I don't know but that's what it says

 

[Electricalserv]

How can you call yourself the national association of professional inspectors and testers and have people on 2 day courses on full scope. Absolute joke. Reading through I can now see where you are coming from so j do apologise. It's the iso qualification that nApit run themselves. Problem is if those 2 quals 17th edition & 2391 aren't obtained Napit should as they say get rid of rubbish! I'm with everyone else now. And in going to raise this on Monday with my area manager. Absolute joke that I should be competing for work with someone who done a 2 day Napit assessment and waiting 12 months to gain quals I already have. Should be L3 tech cert minimum!

 

[Des 56]

IQ quote
I don't accept that the NICEIC alone 'caused damage to the domestic sector', each scheme has had a hand in that, the NICEIC just get blamed as the more well known operators.

If you couple the shared blame amongst the schemes with the QS system being the cornerstone of Niceic domestic registration, then yes they are very, very, definitely the main culprits for its shambolic development

They used a system that they found was suitable for approved contractors where on larger installations the competence of the individual was verified by the criteria of the applicant for a sparks job

In the domestic sector,the one man band individual competent may now employ myriads of un skilled workers to do a skilled electricans job as long as that individual oversigns for the work

This is usually countered by saying that no Qs would do that because they are taking that responsibility,but that is not in realty how many enterprises would function

I know first hand of the practice of hiring Tom Dick or Harry who has little or no training to do electrical installations in this manner, and under that Niceic Qs umbrella

 

[madmac]

They used a system that they found was suitable for approved contractors where on larger installations the competence of the individual was verified by the criteria of the applicant for a sparks job

In the domestic sector,the one man band individual competent may now employ myriads of un skilled workers to do a skilled electricans job as long as that individual oversigns for the work

Des 56, I'm in total agreement with you on this matter. About 5 years ago I was part of a testing team of 4x Approved Electricians, none of us had 2391, however, we were as you say competent due to us all being SJIB registered and all having completed full apprenticeships and a number of years on the job experience. The company we worked for were using QS managers to sign off all the completion certs. even though most of the jobs we inspected were not compliant with the regs and all their contracts were using labourers to install containment and wiring and even TERMINATING!!! We finally had enough and reported them to the union and that stopped the labourers doing any electrical work, and we reported the company to various different regulators inc. NICEIC but were told that because we worked for the company we couldn't report them only a third party!!! So up and down the country there are lots of PFI schools with dodgy electrics which we were giving code1's against full of children going about there daily business unaware of potential dangers!!!
We also reported this mob to Brian Scadden, who writes the commentaries on the regs. and he was outraged!
The company eventually folded and as per usual nobody was held responsible but plenty of managers/agencies/labourers made plenty of the backs of electricians again and gave the whole country the vicky!!!

 

[Electricalserv]

My problem with this is what makes you an 'electrician' just because the JIB has approved you? Just because you are nvq3 doesn't mean you are competent especially if you do not have the 2391 in conjunction with it! And also the experience. We can all go round in circles with this because the jib say an nvq3 makes you approved whilst my scheme doesnt. But to say your are a competent spark because the jib says so is another tounge and cheak incident. Madmac i have every confidence in you being competent but unfortunately I don't have every confidence in the nvq making anyone competent. Their us so many floors to the qualification that it us undoubtabley questionable

 

[ezzzekiel]

Reading through I can now see where you are coming from so j do apologise. It's the iso qualification that nApit run themselves.

thats the point i was trying to make the Napit version which is called the NA2391 can be used as an alternative to C&G 2391 ive sat both versions of the exams and to be honest the NA2391 is a joke and to be honest a bit of an insult comparing it to the actual 2391, and in my view just another money making scam for the providers, pay your way and you will be allowed entry into the club, this pretty much goes for all the scheme providers and a clampdown is way past due.

just to add the Nvq3 is also a joke and can be easily gained with very little effort from many private providers. Rules need to be changed and tightened up, maybe with the exception of sparks out there with the original 2660? should be excempt they obviously put the time in now

 

[VoltzElectrical]

My problem with this is what makes you an 'electrician' just because the JIB has approved you? Just because you are nvq3 doesn't mean you are competent especially if you do not have the 2391 in conjunction with it! And also the experience. We can all go round in circles with this because the jib say an nvq3 makes you approved whilst my scheme doesnt. But to say your are a competent spark because the jib says so is another tounge and cheak incident. Madmac i have every confidence in you being competent but unfortunately I don't have every confidence in the nvq making anyone competent. Their us so many floors to the qualification that it us undoubtabley questionable

A PROPERLY ADMINISTRATED NVQ LEVEL 3 will confirm COMPETENCY.

 

[madmac]

That's also the point, whether it be NVQ3,2391-10,ETC. simply saying one or the other makes you competent is utter folly! I don't apologise and neither should any other likeminded electrician when I stand by what I've already stated many times on this forum, that to be the fully rounded, competent electrician it requires a greater depth of knowledge than sitting these exams on their own. Anyone can study long enough and just about pass anything in the electrical game given enough time and a brass neck but it takes an apprenticeship and years of on site experience flanked by a tradesman to learn all the aspects of our industry especially the dangerous parts, of which there are many. Good luck to all who have went down the route of fast tracking and have parted with lots of hard earned cash for the priveledge, but out there in the big bad world unless you go it alone and become your own boss unfortunately without some sort of formal, recognised training you wont be taken seriously and that will mean not getting a start.
Now for all the faults of the JIB/SJIB but more so the JIB, I would still class them as the standard bearers for our industry as they were set up in the late sixties by the union (the electricians) and the ECA/SELECT( the mobs) to promote and train the future electricians of this industry, where as the NICEIC/NAPIT/ELECSA and all these training providers/regulators are private,profiteering organisations that do nothing but discredit our trade by watering down standards and ultimately safety all for a quick return!!!!!!!!
I am qualified, I did complete a full apprenticeship and I am more than competent to carry out safe electrical installations from LV to 11KV to 33kv TO 66KV to 132KV to 275KV to 400KV and I still keep my SJIB/ECS/CSCS grade card and qualifications up to date and am still an active member of the union and will always be proud to call myself an Approved Electrician/tradesman/journeyman.

 

[VoltzElectrical]

Madmac, how is 'competency' then to be assessed?

 

[IQ Electrical]

That's also the point, whether it be NVQ3,2391-10,ETC. simply saying one or the other makes you competent is utter folly! I don't apologise and neither should any other likeminded electrician when I stand by what I've already stated many times on this forum, that to be the fully rounded, competent electrician it requires a greater depth of knowledge than sitting these exams on their own. Anyone can study long enough and just about pass anything in the electrical game given enough time and a brass neck but it takes an apprenticeship and years of on site experience flanked by a tradesman to learn all the aspects of our industry especially the dangerous parts, of which there are many. Good luck to all who have went down the route of fast tracking and have parted with lots of hard earned cash for the priveledge, but out there in the big bad world unless you go it alone and become your own boss unfortunately without some sort of formal, recognised training you wont be taken seriously and that will mean not getting a start.
Now for all the faults of the JIB/SJIB but more so the JIB, I would still class them as the standard bearers for our industry as they were set up in the late sixties by the union (the electricians) and the ECA/SELECT( the mobs) to promote and train the future electricians of this industry, where as the NICEIC/NAPIT/ELECSA and all these training providers/regulators are private,profiteering organisations that do nothing but discredit our trade by watering down standards and ultimately safety all for a quick return!!!!!!!!
I am qualified, I did complete a full apprenticeship and I am more than competent to carry out safe electrical installations from LV to 11KV to 33kv TO 66KV to 132KV to 275KV to 400KV and I still keep my SJIB/ECS/CSCS grade card and qualifications up to date and am still an active member of the union and will always be proud to call myself an Approved Electrician/tradesman/journeyman.

I agree with a lot of what you have written, to say that a particular qualification alone deems competence is simply not true.

Does anyone think that holding 2391-10 alone will prove competence?

It's no coincidence that even BS7671:2008 stops short of actually defining competence in terms of qualifications, that's because competence is a melting pot of qualifications, experience and common sense.

I've sacked '2391-10 testers' after 1 night's work when I've looked at submitted test sheets and by the same token, I know a chap that tests to a good standard without the 2391-10, it's all about making an assessment of every attribute.