New requirement for part p schemes

[p11jor]

Anyone heard about this new requirement that you need a level 3 qual to join a part p scheme from July 2011?

Surely this would wipe out alot of current members and new applicants?.......meaning more and more houses are not going to be signed off under part p, as I doubt many sparks are going to down tools for a couple of years and get a evening job stacking shelves whilst they try to gain a qualification that says the can do what they have been doing for the past 10/20/30/40/50 years!

Anyone else have any info on this?

 

[VoltzElectrical]

if you are a qualified spark, then you are at level 3. This is designed to weed out the self declared 'competent' person, and make sure they have some kind of qualification. They might only need the 17th edition which is a level 3 qual. Don't misunderstand the requirement to hold a level 3 qualification to mean the NVQ 3. Thats only ONE of the level 3 quals, as I sais, 2330 level 3, 17th, nVQ 3, 2391, etc..

This new rule won't affect hardly anyone, except joe blogs who feels competent, and wants to become a registered D I .

 

[alanl]

It is a rumour that has been put around a number of times, with no evidence to show that it is true.

Personally, I think it would be a good idea.
C+G 2391 is a Level 3, so maybe that ought to be a pre-requisite for self-certification?
NAPIT already need that iirc, or they give you a certain time to get it. The same could apply to everyone, do it in the next year or you are out. That's reasonable.

Alan.

 

[p11jor]

I only have 2330 level 2, I don't call myself a spark as about half my work is electrical (other half is just general building, anything to pay the bills) but I do have my 17th and also a 2392. Would I still be ok for the scheme registration as 17th is level 3?

 

[p11jor]

Yer I agree, 2391 is defo reasonable and even more reasonable to get 12 months to get it! As long as there is a few exam dates spread out through that 12 months for resits as the pass rate is very low!

 

[soulman]

hAVE A READ OF THIS.

The industry bodies represented on the EAS Management Committee have agreed the requirements for new Qualified Supervisors that will be introduced in January 2012.
On January 1st, Level 3 NVQ Certificate in Installing, Testing and Ensuring Compliance of Electrical Installation Work in Dwellings will be the minimum qualification level for Qualified Supervisors responsible for electrical work carried out in domestic properties which comes under Part P of the Building Regulations (for England and Wales).

The minimum requirement for Qualified Supervisors that are responsible for all types of electrical installation will be the new Level 3 NVQ Diploma in Installing Electrotechnical Systems and Equipment (Building and Structures).

Individuals who already have a competency-based qualification recognised by the EAS Management Committee will not have to take the new qualification if they are applying to become a new Qualified Supervisor after 1st January 2012.

An electrotechnical NVQ Level 3 will become the industry recognised standard for electrical work in the UK. There are a number of routes to achieve this standard. This is a move towards safer, better practice in the UK electrical installation industry.

What about practising Qualified Supervisors appointed pre-January 2012?

The requirement only applies to all new applications for Qualified Supervisors after 1st January 2012, and it will not affect those who are currently holders of the post, or new Qualifying Supervisors appointed before 1st January 2012.

What about past holders of the Qualified Supervisor role (not currently responsible)?

If you have been a registered Qualified Supervisor within the last two years for an employer,
you will be eligible to be nominated as a Qualified Supervisor for a new employer.

About the EAS Management Committee

This decision was passed by the industry’s Electrotechnical Assessment Specification (EAS) Management Committee, which is the national Committee of the Institute of Engineering and Technology (IET) responsible for determining the minimum technical standards to which
companies in the electrotechnical industry are assessed.

The Committee is formed of representatives from organisations across the industry.

 

[p11jor]

So it's jan now?

I have 2330 lev2
2382
2392

I have a assesment booked in for Thursday with niceic but cancelling to join napit which I am applying for tomorow

I am intending to do my 2391 before Xmas so if I am a napit member in the next month then I will never have to do these extra requirements? As long as I am with napit for two years then if I go abroad for a few years etc I can use this 2 years I will get from napit to never have to do this? Is this right?

 

[rocker]

You aren't trying to be a qualified supervisor, you are trying to be a domestic installer. QSs are the guys who can sign off the work from their whole firm, rather than just their own work.

 

[IQ Electrical]

You aren't trying to be a qualified supervisor, you are trying to be a domestic installer. QSs are the guys who can sign off the work from their whole firm, rather than just their own work.

You are still termed a Qualified Supervisor even as a domestic installer, don't forget that a domestic installer can still employ 20 electricians!

Here's a passage from NICEIC Domestic Installer requirements:

Site Assessment
The site assessment will normally last half a day. It is a very important you are fully prepared to enable the visit to go as smoothly as possible. Your company representative (Qualified Supervisor) will be expected to ensure access to each installation and to accompany our assessor throughout the assessment visit. Please contact us without delay if the proposed date in inconvenient. Late cancellations of a booked assessment are likely to incur an additional fee.

 

[p11jor]

Great panic over I am a one man band and always will be! Thought I was having to spend a few more years in collage to change the odd C/U!!

 

[p11jor]

Mmmm I dunno! I guess I will find out tomorow when I give napit a call......and i should be a member of them before this all kicks off.....if im not I would be very worried and perhaps the few years back in collage would do me the world of good!!

 

[IQ Electrical]

Mmmm I dunno! I guess I will find out tomorow when I give napit a call......and i should be a member of them before this all kicks off.....if im not I would be very worried and perhaps the few years back in collage would do me the world of good!!

Right from proposal, it was always made clear that this new requirement was not retrospective, it was only for new applications made after the introduction of the requirement.

I think if we're all honest about it, it's about time the QS requirements were tightened up, it can only increase standards.

I'd go for 2391-10 as a minimum if it were my choice, it's testing & inspecting that is the final part of an installation prior to energising so surely that's the most important in preventing dangerous situations and poor installation methods?

 

[Guest123]

I'd go for 2391-10 as a minimum if it were my choice, it's testing & inspecting that is the final part of an installation prior to energising so surely that's the most important in preventing dangerous situations and poor installation methods?

For sure.

 

[ezzzekiel]

for sure for sure


the 2391 is not really a difficult exam but does require better knowledge which in my opinion (in most cases) is enough to prove competence and should be the minimum requirement for entry onto any scheme.

 

[Electricalserv]

This has been done far too many times on here.

I've looked into it deeply. Its basically a scaremongering tactic from people with NVQ3 for those who haven't or can't get it!

With my scheme its a minimum of 'level 3' anyway. Thats Level 3 not NVQ3. Either 2330 Level 3, 2360 level 3 or NVQ3. You must have that and 17th edition minimum to be on full scope....Then you must atain 2391 within 12 months or already have it!

I think what the industry is really trying to get at is that you must be to level 3 standard.

The real issue is the 2391 cert. How can you be able to sign work off if you are not 2391. Testing is the safety of all electrical work. This is what needs to be looked at not installation competency I.e NVQ3

 

[Ponty Massive]

The real issue is the 2391 cert. How can you be able to sign work off if you are not 2391. Testing is the safety of all electrical work. This is what needs to be looked at not installation competency I.e NVQ3

I do not have me 2391. I complete my 5 year apprenticeship in 1995. Over the past 16 years I have been involved in a lot of industrial and commercial projects ranging into £100k's. I was a contracts manager and QS for a large NIC contractor with about 20 JIB sparks under me. Because I have not done my 2391, would you say I am not able to be a DI.

You say testing is the safety of all electrical work. I reckon your miles off, design and installation is the safety of electrical work. Plugging a MFT into a circuit and writing down the numbers isn't going to tell you if the installation has been done correctly.

I agree there should be some industry minimum, but don't say because I do not have my 2391 I shouldn't be able to sign work off!!

 

[IQ Electrical]

I do not have me 2391. I complete my 5 year apprenticeship in 1995. Over the past 16 years I have been involved in a lot of industrial and commercial projects ranging into £100k's. I was a contracts manager and QS for a large NIC contractor with about 20 JIB sparks under me. Because I have not done my 2391, would you say I am not able to be a DI.

You say testing is the safety of all electrical work. I reckon your miles off, design and installation is the safety of electrical work. Plugging a MFT into a circuit and writing down the numbers isn't going to tell you if the installation has been done correctly.

I agree there should be some industry minimum, but don't say because I do not have my 2391 I shouldn't be able to sign work off!!

I take your point regarding design and installation but what is the final backstop before an installation is put into service?

Inspection and testing.

Don't forget the inspection bit, it's not just about 'plugging in an MFT', initial verification is intended to confirm that the installation complies with the design and has been designed and constructed in accordance with BS7671:2008.

You can have the best design in the world but if the installer can't interpret it and the inspector isn't competent, where does that leave your design?

I still believe 2391-10 should be a minimum for a QS for these reasons.

 

[Ponty Massive]

I take your point regarding design and installation but what is the final backstop before an installation is put into service?

Inspection and testing.

Don't forget the inspection bit, it's not just about 'plugging in an MFT', initial verification is intended to confirm that the installation complies with the design and has been designed and constructed in accordance with BS7671:2008.

You can have the best design in the world but if the installer can't interpret it and the inspector isn't competent, where does that leave your design?

I still believe 2391-10 should be a minimum for a QS for these reasons.

I don't disagree with anything you have said here. Design, installation, inspection and testing all plays an equally vital role. It just winds me up a little when someone say's "How can I be competant to sign off work" if I do not have my 2391.

 

[Electricalserv]

Well it's the same as the JIB saying to lots of lads you aren't a electrician until you have nvq3. It works both ways. Until you have the 2391-10 you ain't a competent full scope spark in napits eyes

 

[Des 56]

The most criminal attitude is the Niceic Qualifying supervisor system being adopted for domestic installation, where any muppet can install as long as the entity is registered
It can be justified in large installations but not domestic

Individual competence is the key
The 2391 is an excellent objective for all to attain, but for initial verification of an installation that has been installed by a qualifed spark,no, I dont believe it should be a requirement

Pirs are another issue where the 2391 is I believe very desirable,or at least should be
Its the QS system that needs addressing not the competence of qualified trained sparks
Your training should prepare you sufficiently to test and inspect your own work

 

[Ponty Massive]

Well it's the same as the JIB saying to lots of lads you aren't a electrician until you have nvq3. It works both ways. Until you have the 2391-10 you ain't a competent full scope spark in napits eyes

Well I guess I'll have to remain un-competent for the time being then!

In a different vein, competency and currency IMO also plays a vital role. Many years ago I did a EITB apprenticeship and did 4 years doing ONC & HNC in electrical engineering. Although I still have the bits of paper (in the loft somewhere), I have very vague memories of micro electronics, motor harmonics, binary logic, octal and hexdecimal, quadraphic formulas etc etc but none of these will help me change a CU. I left the industry for almost 8 years and when I decided to return everything had changed, even the colours of the cables.

Installation competency does play a big role and years of experience helps. Regulations change a lot hense the reason I ask a lot of people for their advise, even the new guys

 

[Electricalserv]

I have a assesment booked in for Thursday with niceic but cancelling to join napit which I am applying for tomorow

I am intending to do my 2391 before Xmas so if I am a napit member in the next month then I will never have to do these extra requirements? As long as I am with napit for two years then if I go abroad for a few years etc I can use this 2 years I will get from napit to never have to do this? Is this right?

You will only be a defined scope installer same as kitchen fitter. You would need 2330 level 3, 2360 level 3 or nvq3 as minimum plus 17th and 2391 within 12 months to be full scope. With your quals you are defined I'm afraid

 

[ezzzekiel]

its not saying anyone without 2391 is not competant (but proving competance is the issue with the various qualification routes out there) everyone knows that to pass the 2391 takes a certain ammount of knowledge and if all those who dont have it but are competant then a short course of about 8 weeks costing around £200ish shouldnt be a problem except for those who do not know there stuff, as the 2391 is a sought after qualification then it would simply be a cross to your bow - dont know if its available but maybe an exam sit only for the 2391 should be available for those with enough qualifications/experience to be deemed fit to go straight to exam.

 

[ezzzekiel]

You will only be a defined scope installer same as kitchen fitter. You would need 2330 level 3, 2360 level 3 or nvq3 as minimum plus 17th and 2391 within 12 months to be full scope. With your quals you are defined I'm afraid

not sure on this info i know for a fact my mate joined Napit full scope with only a one week Di qualification, he then gained 17th in first year and to date thats all he has and has been a member for about 4 years now and still dosent know his ar from his elbow yet never has any problems staying a member.

 

[Ponty Massive]

I was going to ask how much it cost and how long it takes

 

[Electricalserv]

not sure on this info i know for a fact my mate joined Napit full scope with only a one week Di qualification, he then gained 17th in first year and to date thats all he has and has been a member for about 4 years now and still dosent know his ar from his elbow yet never has any problems staying a member.

Sorry but what a load of rubbish. I know the requirements because I am part of the scheme. Mocking my scheme wuth il informed information has annoyed me because I know Napit is really strict on competency more than the other 2. If I was not on my phone I would provide you with the written evidence of what you need to be full scope. I will however when I'm home provide it for anyone unsure. You friend would be defined scope fact! Your gulabilty has let you down here. A Di course and he's full scope with Napit LAUGHABLE

 

[Des 56]

You will only be a defined scope installer same as kitchen fitter. You would need 2330 level 3, 2360 level 3 or nvq3 as minimum plus 17th and 2391 within 12 months to be full scope. With your quals you are defined I'm afraid

I was under that impression a few years ago,to be in Napit you had to have done an apprenticeship and hold the 2391
Then it was pointed out to me that.they permit entry as long as any of the requirements are gained within a 12 month

Now to me that was very surprising.
One of the main reasons I joined initially was the impression that you had to be a spark and trained in the traditional manner with apprenticeship and the testing quals etc

It now puzzles mme how it can be ok to be competent for a year without these things then you suddenly become incompetent 12 months after being accepted

I think the numbers game had a great impact on what was an early and commendable stance on training and qualification
It was probably the Niceic enthusiasm and acceptance of the very minimum entry criteria that changed things ( the gov dont like the nics actions one little bit with those minimum requirements) and thats why this level 3 standard is being thrown around

Its already been stated by an earlier poster that its not retrospective so the "never should have been" registered installers wont be affected

Its now too late to change what damage the Niceic have done to the domestic sector to make any difference for many years to come

 

[ezzzekiel]

oh im sorry didnt realise you were a Napit member that obviously makes me gulable according to you even though im also a NAPIT MEMBER have been for about 6 years and was there when he joined up even went to masfield training area with him for two day assesment where you pretty much keep taking the exam until you get all the answers correct.

 

[Big n Daft]

I'm 20 yr plus spark getting back in the game.Quals are:
C&G 236 pt 1&2
C&G Elecs Cert
Contacted Napit and goes like this for full scope:
Assessment
Get your 17th in 6mnths
2391 in 12mnths
When asked if I will be full scope upon joining and passing assessment the answer was yes.

 

[IQ Electrical]

oh im sorry didnt realise you were a Napit member that obviously makes me gulable according to you even though im also a NAPIT MEMBER have been for about 6 years and was there when he joined up even went to masfield training area with him for two day assesment where you pretty much keep taking the exam until you get all the answers correct.

Ah, the 'assessment', is that where the confusion is coming from?

Reading the NAPIT requirements, it seems that you can circumvent the normal entry requirements by 'passing' a NAPIT 'assessment'.

It was all about the numbers game, the strict entry requirements lasted around 1 year until it became obvious that it was having a significant impact on membership numbers.

I don't accept that the NICEIC alone 'caused damage to the domestic sector', each scheme has had a hand in that, the NICEIC just get blamed as the more well known operators.

 

[Electricalserv]

oh im sorry didnt realise you were a Napit member that obviously makes me gulable according to you even though im also a NAPIT MEMBER have been for about 6 years and was there when he joined up even went to masfield training area with him for two day assesment where you pretty much keep taking the exam until you get all the answers correct.

Well I'm sure all other Napit members will be made up that you belittle their scheme on a public forum. If you don't gain the 2391 within 12 months you are out. That's how it is whether assessors are letting people if I don't know but that's what it says

 

[Electricalserv]

How can you call yourself the national association of professional inspectors and testers and have people on 2 day courses on full scope. Absolute joke. Reading through I can now see where you are coming from so j do apologise. It's the iso qualification that nApit run themselves. Problem is if those 2 quals 17th edition & 2391 aren't obtained Napit should as they say get rid of rubbish! I'm with everyone else now. And in going to raise this on Monday with my area manager. Absolute joke that I should be competing for work with someone who done a 2 day Napit assessment and waiting 12 months to gain quals I already have. Should be L3 tech cert minimum!

 

[Des 56]

IQ quote
I don't accept that the NICEIC alone 'caused damage to the domestic sector', each scheme has had a hand in that, the NICEIC just get blamed as the more well known operators.

If you couple the shared blame amongst the schemes with the QS system being the cornerstone of Niceic domestic registration, then yes they are very, very, definitely the main culprits for its shambolic development

They used a system that they found was suitable for approved contractors where on larger installations the competence of the individual was verified by the criteria of the applicant for a sparks job

In the domestic sector,the one man band individual competent may now employ myriads of un skilled workers to do a skilled electricans job as long as that individual oversigns for the work

This is usually countered by saying that no Qs would do that because they are taking that responsibility,but that is not in realty how many enterprises would function

I know first hand of the practice of hiring Tom Dick or Harry who has little or no training to do electrical installations in this manner, and under that Niceic Qs umbrella

 

[madmac]

They used a system that they found was suitable for approved contractors where on larger installations the competence of the individual was verified by the criteria of the applicant for a sparks job

In the domestic sector,the one man band individual competent may now employ myriads of un skilled workers to do a skilled electricans job as long as that individual oversigns for the work

Des 56, I'm in total agreement with you on this matter. About 5 years ago I was part of a testing team of 4x Approved Electricians, none of us had 2391, however, we were as you say competent due to us all being SJIB registered and all having completed full apprenticeships and a number of years on the job experience. The company we worked for were using QS managers to sign off all the completion certs. even though most of the jobs we inspected were not compliant with the regs and all their contracts were using labourers to install containment and wiring and even TERMINATING!!! We finally had enough and reported them to the union and that stopped the labourers doing any electrical work, and we reported the company to various different regulators inc. NICEIC but were told that because we worked for the company we couldn't report them only a third party!!! So up and down the country there are lots of PFI schools with dodgy electrics which we were giving code1's against full of children going about there daily business unaware of potential dangers!!!
We also reported this mob to Brian Scadden, who writes the commentaries on the regs. and he was outraged!
The company eventually folded and as per usual nobody was held responsible but plenty of managers/agencies/labourers made plenty of the backs of electricians again and gave the whole country the vicky!!!

 

[Electricalserv]

My problem with this is what makes you an 'electrician' just because the JIB has approved you? Just because you are nvq3 doesn't mean you are competent especially if you do not have the 2391 in conjunction with it! And also the experience. We can all go round in circles with this because the jib say an nvq3 makes you approved whilst my scheme doesnt. But to say your are a competent spark because the jib says so is another tounge and cheak incident. Madmac i have every confidence in you being competent but unfortunately I don't have every confidence in the nvq making anyone competent. Their us so many floors to the qualification that it us undoubtabley questionable

 

[ezzzekiel]

Reading through I can now see where you are coming from so j do apologise. It's the iso qualification that nApit run themselves.

thats the point i was trying to make the Napit version which is called the NA2391 can be used as an alternative to C&G 2391 ive sat both versions of the exams and to be honest the NA2391 is a joke and to be honest a bit of an insult comparing it to the actual 2391, and in my view just another money making scam for the providers, pay your way and you will be allowed entry into the club, this pretty much goes for all the scheme providers and a clampdown is way past due.

just to add the Nvq3 is also a joke and can be easily gained with very little effort from many private providers. Rules need to be changed and tightened up, maybe with the exception of sparks out there with the original 2660? should be excempt they obviously put the time in now

 

[VoltzElectrical]

My problem with this is what makes you an 'electrician' just because the JIB has approved you? Just because you are nvq3 doesn't mean you are competent especially if you do not have the 2391 in conjunction with it! And also the experience. We can all go round in circles with this because the jib say an nvq3 makes you approved whilst my scheme doesnt. But to say your are a competent spark because the jib says so is another tounge and cheak incident. Madmac i have every confidence in you being competent but unfortunately I don't have every confidence in the nvq making anyone competent. Their us so many floors to the qualification that it us undoubtabley questionable

A PROPERLY ADMINISTRATED NVQ LEVEL 3 will confirm COMPETENCY.

 

[madmac]

That's also the point, whether it be NVQ3,2391-10,ETC. simply saying one or the other makes you competent is utter folly! I don't apologise and neither should any other likeminded electrician when I stand by what I've already stated many times on this forum, that to be the fully rounded, competent electrician it requires a greater depth of knowledge than sitting these exams on their own. Anyone can study long enough and just about pass anything in the electrical game given enough time and a brass neck but it takes an apprenticeship and years of on site experience flanked by a tradesman to learn all the aspects of our industry especially the dangerous parts, of which there are many. Good luck to all who have went down the route of fast tracking and have parted with lots of hard earned cash for the priveledge, but out there in the big bad world unless you go it alone and become your own boss unfortunately without some sort of formal, recognised training you wont be taken seriously and that will mean not getting a start.
Now for all the faults of the JIB/SJIB but more so the JIB, I would still class them as the standard bearers for our industry as they were set up in the late sixties by the union (the electricians) and the ECA/SELECT( the mobs) to promote and train the future electricians of this industry, where as the NICEIC/NAPIT/ELECSA and all these training providers/regulators are private,profiteering organisations that do nothing but discredit our trade by watering down standards and ultimately safety all for a quick return!!!!!!!!
I am qualified, I did complete a full apprenticeship and I am more than competent to carry out safe electrical installations from LV to 11KV to 33kv TO 66KV to 132KV to 275KV to 400KV and I still keep my SJIB/ECS/CSCS grade card and qualifications up to date and am still an active member of the union and will always be proud to call myself an Approved Electrician/tradesman/journeyman.

 

[VoltzElectrical]

Madmac, how is 'competency' then to be assessed?

 

[IQ Electrical]

That's also the point, whether it be NVQ3,2391-10,ETC. simply saying one or the other makes you competent is utter folly! I don't apologise and neither should any other likeminded electrician when I stand by what I've already stated many times on this forum, that to be the fully rounded, competent electrician it requires a greater depth of knowledge than sitting these exams on their own. Anyone can study long enough and just about pass anything in the electrical game given enough time and a brass neck but it takes an apprenticeship and years of on site experience flanked by a tradesman to learn all the aspects of our industry especially the dangerous parts, of which there are many. Good luck to all who have went down the route of fast tracking and have parted with lots of hard earned cash for the priveledge, but out there in the big bad world unless you go it alone and become your own boss unfortunately without some sort of formal, recognised training you wont be taken seriously and that will mean not getting a start.
Now for all the faults of the JIB/SJIB but more so the JIB, I would still class them as the standard bearers for our industry as they were set up in the late sixties by the union (the electricians) and the ECA/SELECT( the mobs) to promote and train the future electricians of this industry, where as the NICEIC/NAPIT/ELECSA and all these training providers/regulators are private,profiteering organisations that do nothing but discredit our trade by watering down standards and ultimately safety all for a quick return!!!!!!!!
I am qualified, I did complete a full apprenticeship and I am more than competent to carry out safe electrical installations from LV to 11KV to 33kv TO 66KV to 132KV to 275KV to 400KV and I still keep my SJIB/ECS/CSCS grade card and qualifications up to date and am still an active member of the union and will always be proud to call myself an Approved Electrician/tradesman/journeyman.

I agree with a lot of what you have written, to say that a particular qualification alone deems competence is simply not true.

Does anyone think that holding 2391-10 alone will prove competence?

It's no coincidence that even BS7671:2008 stops short of actually defining competence in terms of qualifications, that's because competence is a melting pot of qualifications, experience and common sense.

I've sacked '2391-10 testers' after 1 night's work when I've looked at submitted test sheets and by the same token, I know a chap that tests to a good standard without the 2391-10, it's all about making an assessment of every attribute.

 

[Electricalserv]

A PROPERLY ADMINISTRATED NVQ LEVEL 3 will confirm COMPETENCY.

Id like to agree but I can't nvq3 alone does not make you competent only in the eyes of the jib. No scheme insists on nvq3. Jib is only there for better pay for worker and health an safety on-site. Whether you are using jib cards on-site building domestic living quarters you still need approval by the labc or a scheme member to sign work off the jib in essence are a governing body for workers health & safety and pay.

 

[VoltzElectrical]

IQ, you make a lot of sense. Any good person will demonstrate their competency on the job. Having the paperwork stands you in good stead to get given the chance to prove it though.

Regards.

 

[madmac]

Cheers Voltz, I'm not saying that we don't use NVQ3 or 2391-10 to acertain competency, all I'm saying is that too many people on here are picking pieces out of the over all trade route to competency and saying that as long as you have this one part then you're competent! Not so, it is the same as one of these graduate engineer lads in the office who come onto site and because of their paper qualifications we have to listen and adhere to what they say and ultimately put into practice what they want and in my experience of people with pieces of paper ONLY and no other hands on experience it always eventually goes t*ts up!!!
It should be competency based on training AND experience and the only way IMO that you can get this is by using electricians that meet the JIB/SJIB standards which have been agreed by US the sparks via our union.

 

[topquark]

Qualifications alone do not prove competence. I've interviewed people before who have degree level qualifications and they've fallen well short of the grade after a few relatively easy questions.

Competence is down to a combination of both applied knowledge and experience. It's surprising how easily some people forget even the basics once they walk out of the exam room! The point has already been made that it's relatively easy to "cram" for an exam and pass.

 

[VoltzElectrical]

Cheers Voltz, I'm not saying that we don't use NVQ3 or 2391-10 to acertain competency, all I'm saying is that too many people on here are picking pieces out of the over all trade route to competency and saying that as long as you have this one part then you're competent! Not so, it is the same as one of these graduate engineer lads in the office who come onto site and because of their paper qualifications we have to listen and adhere to what they say and ultimately put into practice what they want and in my experience of people with pieces of paper ONLY and no other hands on experience it always eventually goes t*ts up!!!
It should be competency based on training AND experience and the only way IMO that you can get this is by using electricians that meet the JIB/SJIB standards which have been agreed by US the sparks via our union.

You make an interesting point about using electricians who meet the standards of the JIB, that brings the discussion full circle. What does a person need to be graded by the JIB? NVQ 3. Some people on here think that by my observation of this criteria, that I some way endorse it over and above other more demanding requirements, such as the 2391. The 2391 is a very demanding qualification, and I applaud anyone who has achieved it, but I don't make the rules.

We all work hard to develop our skills and when approaching our future employers, rely somewhat on pieces of paper held out before us to open doors. It's then down to the individual to prove that they deserve to hold such accreditation by their actions.

 

[ezzzekiel]

Unfortunately there is always going to be the problem of how to prove competancy and is based around the idea of partp unfortunately it is purely a license to print money for the scheme providers and they are at fault there needs to be a better method but it will always come down to the pieces of paper you hold unless a regulator is going to work alongside you forever monitoring your work. So what bits of paper need to be held:
original 2660 gains entry for membership
2330 level 3 with nvq3 gains entry for membership
2382 + 2391 with proven career history gains entry for membership
anyone holding unknown or non standard quals should be given a preliminary defined scope membership.

purely my opinion.

 

[VoltzElectrical]

Unfortunately there is always going to be the problem of how to prove competancy and is based around the idea of partp unfortunately it is purely a license to print money for the scheme providers and they are at fault there needs to be a better method but it will always come down to the pieces of paper you hold unless a regulator is going to work alongside you forever monitoring your work. So what bits of paper need to be held:
original 2660 gains entry for membership
2330 level 3 with nvq3 gains entry for membership
2382 + 2391 with proven career history gains entry for membership
anyone holding unknown or non standard quals should be given a preliminary defined scope membership.

purely my opinion.

Not sure if it's an opinion, as what you have stated here seems to be fact (in terms of what is needed to be deemed to be competent in the eyes of others).
Competency is also measured by what you do competently on site. The paperwork needs to be backed up with actual work.

Can we then surmise that competency consists of PAPER work + ACTUAL WORK?

PAPER + ACTUAL (WORK) = COMPETENCY.

A new equation for the text books?

 

[ezzzekiel]

well everyone seems to have a very simmilar opinion with the exception of the powers that be

 

[madmac]

So what ARE we saying here boys? Surprise surprise that qualifications and training and experience= competent electricians? Well **** me gently!!! Is that not what the traditional apprenticeship provided??? Point proven.

 

[Electricalserv]

Well I can't agree for the reason that I don't have nvq3 and nor do some of you guys have the 2391 qualification that I do have. Maybe if you have both you can be fully satisfied that you are a fully qualified spark. If you have nvq3 you are an approved installation electrician and if you have 2391 you are an approved inspector & tester. I know which one I'd rather be. But that's my opinion as IQ says competency will be proven on site and nobody can say they are fully competent in every aspect of electrical installation and testing from motors to installing twin & earth. It would take years of training & experience!