New requirement for part p schemes

[Electricalserv]

A PROPERLY ADMINISTRATED NVQ LEVEL 3 will confirm COMPETENCY.

Id like to agree but I can't nvq3 alone does not make you competent only in the eyes of the jib. No scheme insists on nvq3. Jib is only there for better pay for worker and health an safety on-site. Whether you are using jib cards on-site building domestic living quarters you still need approval by the labc or a scheme member to sign work off the jib in essence are a governing body for workers health & safety and pay.

 

[VoltzElectrical]

IQ, you make a lot of sense. Any good person will demonstrate their competency on the job. Having the paperwork stands you in good stead to get given the chance to prove it though.

Regards.

 

[madmac]

Cheers Voltz, I'm not saying that we don't use NVQ3 or 2391-10 to acertain competency, all I'm saying is that too many people on here are picking pieces out of the over all trade route to competency and saying that as long as you have this one part then you're competent! Not so, it is the same as one of these graduate engineer lads in the office who come onto site and because of their paper qualifications we have to listen and adhere to what they say and ultimately put into practice what they want and in my experience of people with pieces of paper ONLY and no other hands on experience it always eventually goes t*ts up!!!
It should be competency based on training AND experience and the only way IMO that you can get this is by using electricians that meet the JIB/SJIB standards which have been agreed by US the sparks via our union.

 

[topquark]

Qualifications alone do not prove competence. I've interviewed people before who have degree level qualifications and they've fallen well short of the grade after a few relatively easy questions.

Competence is down to a combination of both applied knowledge and experience. It's surprising how easily some people forget even the basics once they walk out of the exam room! The point has already been made that it's relatively easy to "cram" for an exam and pass.

 

[VoltzElectrical]

Cheers Voltz, I'm not saying that we don't use NVQ3 or 2391-10 to acertain competency, all I'm saying is that too many people on here are picking pieces out of the over all trade route to competency and saying that as long as you have this one part then you're competent! Not so, it is the same as one of these graduate engineer lads in the office who come onto site and because of their paper qualifications we have to listen and adhere to what they say and ultimately put into practice what they want and in my experience of people with pieces of paper ONLY and no other hands on experience it always eventually goes t*ts up!!!
It should be competency based on training AND experience and the only way IMO that you can get this is by using electricians that meet the JIB/SJIB standards which have been agreed by US the sparks via our union.

You make an interesting point about using electricians who meet the standards of the JIB, that brings the discussion full circle. What does a person need to be graded by the JIB? NVQ 3. Some people on here think that by my observation of this criteria, that I some way endorse it over and above other more demanding requirements, such as the 2391. The 2391 is a very demanding qualification, and I applaud anyone who has achieved it, but I don't make the rules.

We all work hard to develop our skills and when approaching our future employers, rely somewhat on pieces of paper held out before us to open doors. It's then down to the individual to prove that they deserve to hold such accreditation by their actions.

 

[ezzzekiel]

Unfortunately there is always going to be the problem of how to prove competancy and is based around the idea of partp unfortunately it is purely a license to print money for the scheme providers and they are at fault there needs to be a better method but it will always come down to the pieces of paper you hold unless a regulator is going to work alongside you forever monitoring your work. So what bits of paper need to be held:
original 2660 gains entry for membership
2330 level 3 with nvq3 gains entry for membership
2382 + 2391 with proven career history gains entry for membership
anyone holding unknown or non standard quals should be given a preliminary defined scope membership.

purely my opinion.

 

[VoltzElectrical]

Unfortunately there is always going to be the problem of how to prove competancy and is based around the idea of partp unfortunately it is purely a license to print money for the scheme providers and they are at fault there needs to be a better method but it will always come down to the pieces of paper you hold unless a regulator is going to work alongside you forever monitoring your work. So what bits of paper need to be held:
original 2660 gains entry for membership
2330 level 3 with nvq3 gains entry for membership
2382 + 2391 with proven career history gains entry for membership
anyone holding unknown or non standard quals should be given a preliminary defined scope membership.

purely my opinion.

Not sure if it's an opinion, as what you have stated here seems to be fact (in terms of what is needed to be deemed to be competent in the eyes of others).
Competency is also measured by what you do competently on site. The paperwork needs to be backed up with actual work.

Can we then surmise that competency consists of PAPER work + ACTUAL WORK?

PAPER + ACTUAL (WORK) = COMPETENCY.

A new equation for the text books?

 

[ezzzekiel]

well everyone seems to have a very simmilar opinion with the exception of the powers that be

 

[madmac]

So what ARE we saying here boys? Surprise surprise that qualifications and training and experience= competent electricians? Well **** me gently!!! Is that not what the traditional apprenticeship provided??? Point proven.

 

[Electricalserv]

Well I can't agree for the reason that I don't have nvq3 and nor do some of you guys have the 2391 qualification that I do have. Maybe if you have both you can be fully satisfied that you are a fully qualified spark. If you have nvq3 you are an approved installation electrician and if you have 2391 you are an approved inspector & tester. I know which one I'd rather be. But that's my opinion as IQ says competency will be proven on site and nobody can say they are fully competent in every aspect of electrical installation and testing from motors to installing twin & earth. It would take years of training & experience!

 

[p11jor]

I think there should be say a 12 month onsite assessments set out from scheme providers, they visit you each month for a day tick off every single scenario then give you a national recognised diploma or that of like..... Minium of 17th edition and some sort of elec qual city & guilds

I did my 2392 got 100% yet I was on here few days ago asking about a small question on testing.... Quals arnt always the answer

Problem is who is going to pay for this

 

[madmac]

p11jor: this sounds awfully like a type of apprenticeship where you are under constant assessment. Electricalserv: just for the record, I am an SJIB Approved Electrician with affiliations of Electrical Fitter,Maintenance Electrician, Installation Electrician, Distribution Networks Electrician and I have 2391-10 17th inspection & testing c&g, 2382 17th wiring regs. c&g, SELECT 17th wiring regs., SVQ level3, ECS assessment,safety passport,WI1 Scottish Power Authorisation 11kv to 400kv,EN1 Scottish Power Authorisation, independent entry to substations with exposed live busbars,SR3&4 Scottish Power Authorisation for permit for work & limited works certificates, IPAF,PASMA,full apprentice papers,AM2 trade certificate,electrical craftsman certificate, HND in electrical engineering and last but not least I am a fully paid up member of the union and have been since I was a first year apprentice.
But according to you it's impossible to achieve all this by working for some company or if you're agency? Well there are many more guys like me out there trying to fight for a better work place for all of us and if we can't even get the balance between training and employment then it's all over and kiss your industry goodnight!

 

[VoltzElectrical]

Goodnight!

 

[Electricalserv]

p11jor:
But according to you it's impossible to achieve all this by working for some company or if you're agency? Well there are many more guys like me out there trying to fight for a better work place for all of us and if we can't even get the balance between training and employment then it's all over and kiss your industry goodnight!

when did I say it's not possible to achieve qualifications whilst working for someone else & agencies? I said you are very union focused. What you are unhappy with I don't know but for me I go to work to earn money and that's that. I have no hidden agender. My point to you was instead of worrying about everyone else focus on yourself and you'll most likely find yourself on better wages or whatever you are looking for. I'd like you to point out where I have said you can't gain qualifications working for someone else???? As I said, you work for someone else and you will always be £ short of your full worth. No1 will employ you unless you can make money. Most likely all them quals where paid for by your government or employers so in my opinion you've done ok. ALOT of people gave to get quals out if their own wallet. Apprentices get the lot on the plate

 

[madmac]

Electricalserv: Unlike you I am very socially concious, and I always try my best to better the conditions of fellow electricians and just for the record I am earning a very high rate of pay compared to the directly employed sparks I'm working with but I am more than prepared to put my head above the parapet to shout and fight for better pay for these boys even if it means that I lose my job because then I will be able to gain full time direct employment on better wages and not have suffer the indignity of being on a minutes notice with an agency! And yes most of the quals. were paid for by either a company or an agency but about a third were paid out of my own pocket, now, in a civillised and respectful environment, we should have to pay for none of these quals. and the companies should as they benefit from them ultimately as they couldn't do any portion of the electrical works that they tendered for unless they could guarantee a skilled and competent workforce!!!
"Apprentices get the lot on a plate"??? And your point is?