No earth on ring main.

[Clark3169]

Hi guys I am re-wiring a bathroom. I have done first fix for fan, down-lights and switches on the lighting circuit. I had to pick an earth up from some old conduit and will of course test this for continuity. Now when I have taken a front plate off of a single socket I have found there to be no earth conductors on the ring cables although there is one in a cable which spurs off of it. It's hard to see if the cables are running in conduit or not which may be acting as an earth if it is. Was this common practise years back, to use conduit as the means of earthing? What do I advise the customer? Does the house require a re-wire? I will try and run my spurs from elsewhere though I think. Any advise welcome. Ta.

 

[james_t87]

Nothing wrong with metal conduit as a means of earthing as long as its continuous . Did you test for a earth at the socket?

 

[monkster]

test for zs would have been a good start

 

[KAS1]

Believe it or not years ago they even used trunking and SWA as an earth lol

 

[Clark3169]

No I haven't done any testing as yet as I spent the day sorting the down-lights and running new cables etc... discovered the socket situation at the end of the day. I replaced it with a class 2 socket as it was a metal front plate just to be on the safe side. Will do R1 & R2 test for continuity when I return. If there is no earth though what's the correct advise and action to follow? Thanks for your replies.

 

[KAS1]

What's this class 2 socket just to be on the safe side statement????

 

[Clark3169]

A plastic front plate. One that wont become live if a line conductor pops out as it did before. It's a temp measure until I can test and get it sorted tomorrow.

 

[monkster]

Just cut the green&yellow stuff out never did like the colours lol:32:

 

[Clark3169]

Ha ha yeah two conductors are quicker to install than three. Your right ill do away with them altogether ha ha.

 

[Clark3169]

KAS1 what's the concern you've got me worried now? Am I missing something? (Other than the plot)

 

[KAS1]

An earth by the sounds of it.

KAS1 what's the concern you've got me worried now? Am I missing something? (Other than the plot)

So what happens when someone plugs into your class 2 socket ???

 

[Robert Turnbull]

A zs would have been quicker than Changing the socket

 

[Deleted member 9648]

A plastic front plate. One that wont become live if a line conductor pops out as it did before. It's a temp measure until I can test and get it sorted tomorrow.

Been like it donkeys years and yet needs a 'temporary' for 24 hrs?...BTW there's no such thing as a class2 socket,they all need earthing.

 

[monkster]

class two quality put a sticker on socket with the words ONLY double insulated allowed pmsl

 

[trev]

Hmmm class 2 sockets, I think I can feel a Dragon's Den thing coming on. Reckon I'll get very far guys?
I don't

 

[Rockingit]

What would be a more profitable venture Trev would be some big brother style eye in the sky that throws a custard pie at every silly 'sparky' that thinks they can go diving in first, and test second.

Inspect, test, do, test again. It's not rocket science!

 

[Clark3169]

No it hadn't been ok for donkeys years it socket was badly scorched on the back due to a loose line conductor and when I touched it unplugging the immersion heater before unscrewing it from the wall I got a bolt of it. Lucky no one else did or worse as it could have caused a fire so it defo needed replacing anyway. Couldn't do Zs as didn't have my megga with me came straight from a night shift didn't expect to work today got called in last minute.

 

[KAS1]

So what did you connect into the earth terminal of your new socket that you replaced the old metal with?

 

[bigbaddave]

How from working in a bathroom are you now aware that the ring main has no earth?

 

[KAS1]

Was the bathroom lights wired in conduit?

 

[bigbaddave]

Think he has gone to find his ELI tester

 

[KAS1]

Bombarded him with questions and his head exploded lol

 

[Toonlad]

Better not show him what i was up against today, his head would definatly IMplode.

 

[oldtimer]

What you are looking for is the 14th edition reg Electrically & Mechanically Sound if you get a good Zs then your good to go thats why sparks put an earth tail between the socket and the backbox as when you unscrewed the socket you would have lost the earth. Nothing wrong with conduit as an earth .

 

[Clark3169]

Guys, thanks for some of your replies. My question is.. If there is no earth on the ring main and it turns out not to be in earthed conduit which I don't think it is, do I recommend a rewire or is there any other option? And as far as diving in first without testing that's not the case. I think you find we inspect first then test which is exactly what I'm doing. The first fix in the bathroom is being installed and is dead until connected up which will be tested first of course. As far as class 2 sockets you know what I meant plastic not metal. And I connected the cpc from the spur to the earth terminal but like I said it doesn't look like an earth is going back so makes no difference at the moment. Pleas guys if your not going to reply with any helpful answers don't bother. Thank you.

 

[Des 56]

Do your testing tomorrow and you may find that the conduit is a very good earth path

If you are trying to make the sockets safer when they are removed whilst live,you would be better off fitting tail earths to the back boxes (if there are none )

If the conduit is not intact,it may still be possible to wire a seperate earth through the system,but probably easier to rewire all in singles through the conduit where it is still possible to do so

 

[Clark3169]

Oh and the reason I discovered there is no earth in the ring main is because I intend to run a 13 amp fuss spur for the underfloor heating for the bathroom off the ring main so I had to take a look at the socket on the landing which turned out to be in a bit of a state. I can run a radial from a spare mcb to power the stuff in the bathroom if I have to and I can ensure my work is earthed and safe but I am simply trying to find out what advise you guys would give about the lack of earth in the ring main as I don't want be accused of scare mongering by suggesting a rewire if there is another solution.

 

[Clark3169]

Thanks Des yeah I'm hoping there is conduit like with the lighting circuits, fingers crossed. So basically If there is earthed conduit I'm all good, if there is conduit but no continuity I can try to earth it myself somehow if not its suggest a rewire time. That's all wanted to confirm, thanks mate.

 

[Des 56]

I would do the job I was contracted to carry out

I would advise the customer of the percieved problem

I would suggest a solution if they asked of me

I would not make a suggestion unless asked (that would put aside your scaremongering concern )

There is nothing wrong with making danger known to the customer

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Oh and the reason I discovered there is no earth in the ring main is because I intend to run a 13 amp fuss spur for the underfloor heating for the bathroom off the ring main so I had to take a look at the socket on the landing which turned out to be in a bit of a state. I can run a radial from a spare mcb to power the stuff in the bathroom if I have to and I can ensure my work is earthed and safe but I am simply trying to find out what advise you guys would give about the lack of earth in the ring main as I don't want be accused of scare mongering by suggesting a rewire if there is another solution.

Other things spring to mind as you are clearly doing this work for a client.
Bonding....circuit protection....certification/notification,it comes under part p.

 

[oldtimer]

Oh and the reason I discovered there is no earth in the ring main is because I intend to run a 13 amp fuss spur for the underfloor heating for the bathroom off the ring main so I had to take a look at the socket on the landing which turned out to be in a bit of a state. I can run a radial from a spare mcb to power the stuff in the bathroom if I have to and I can ensure my work is earthed and safe but I am simply trying to find out what advise you guys would give about the lack of earth in the ring main as I don't want be accused of scare mongering by suggesting a rewire if there is another solution.

Well you will be scaremongering remember you cannot backdate the regs when these sockets were installed they complied to to the then regulations so if they pass IR Zs tests its good to go as for taking a spur from it yet again if it passes it IR Zs test then its good to go.

 

[charliewilde]

test for zs would have been a good start

What could be the very first thing to test? The ZS or the earth at the socket?

 

[oldtimer]

Where these systems can fail is if a plastic CU is fitted and the continuity between earth and the conduit is not there

 

[benji]

never seen a house done with screwed conduit ie. couplings & bushes ect. did a lot in 60s with split conduit with rubber gromets on the ends so i doubt if you could rely on conduit for good earth

 

[trev]

Guys, thanks for some of your replies. My question is.. If there is no earth on the ring main and it turns out not to be in earthed conduit which I don't think it is, do I recommend a rewire or is there any other option? And as far as diving in first without testing that's not the case. I think you find we inspect first then test which is exactly what I'm doing. The first fix in the bathroom is being installed and is dead until connected up which will be tested first of course. As far as class 2 sockets you know what I meant plastic not metal. And I connected the cpc from the spur to the earth terminal but like I said it doesn't look like an earth is going back so makes no difference at the moment. Pleas guys if your not going to reply with any helpful answers don't bother. Thank you.

Clark, there's a lot goes on here which is like site cabin humour. I know you can't tell people's inflection from the written word but the vast majority of it is just good natured ribbing

 

[Engineer54]

never seen a house done with screwed conduit ie. couplings & bushes ect. did a lot in 60s with split conduit with rubber gromets on the ends so i doubt if you could rely on conduit for good earth

You'll be surprised to learn that a good many older houses were fully conduited throughout then!! lol!! Even more so, blocks of flats, that when you think about it, makes a lot of sense being as they were primarily concrete floored and ceilings!! Some also being fully wired in MICC cable!!

 

[Atelcom]

but the vast majority of it is just good natured ribbing

Is that the same thing as on those condom thingy's

Ok I've already got me coat........!

 

[KAS1]

A lot of the old police houses (when there used to be one every couple of streets apart on estates) were done in conduit

never seen a house done with screwed conduit ie. couplings & bushes ect. did a lot in 60s with split conduit with rubber gromets on the ends so i doubt if you could rely on conduit for good earth

 

[Edd]

Check by doing an R2 reading, a ELI reading can give a red herring, Ive had decent readings testing Zs on old conduit systems in pre fab buildings, but complete open circuit at the low voltage of an R2 test. damp rusty concrete does conduct at 230V but no so well at 12v

 

[ste77]

test for zs would have been a good start

If hes unsure of there being an earth in the circuit, i wouldnt be carrying out a Zs test, earth continuity check would be my preference, injecting 25A into a circuit with no earth is dangerous.