Unqualified, inexperienced badged "electricians"

[highspark]

How can we put an end to this drivel? Why is there people out there unqualified and inexperienced bluffing their way into work. Taking work from fully qualified time served lads?Theres a couple in my area. Driving round in vans with schemes tatooed all over them. They look the biz - the outfit. But I know they are not electricians. They are chancers bluffing their way through. The 17th Edition minimum requirement to have a schemes backing...its a farce. The problem I have is the customers can't differenciate from a fully qualified. 17th edition, 2391, tech cert nvq3 electrician from a 17th edition short course idiot! It boils my blood

 

[highspark]

a 5 week wonder comes out knowing more about Ohms law, cable selection, voltage drop, testing etc than a guy who`s done 2 years at our local colleges.

Are you having a laugh? If taught properly a 2330 level 3 student will be more than equipped to deal with all of those you have mentioned. At the end of the day the whole course covers all areas of tye industry. Electrical Trainee are solely based on domestic and light commercial work!

 

[thw1965]

Are you having a laugh? If taught properly a 2330 level 3 student will be more than equipped to deal with all of those you have mentioned. At the end of the day the whole course covers all areas of tye industry. Electrical Trainee are solely based on domestic and light commercial work!

Nope Im not having a laugh, thats based on training 3 Modern Apprentices from 2 different colleges over the last 7 years mate

 

[highspark]

Nope Im not having a laugh, thats based on training 3 Modern Apprentices from 2 different colleges over the last 7 years mate

Where are you based? What college have they studied at? Sure you just haven't taken on 3 numpties?

 

[alarm man]

"in depth theory" at colleges, your having a laugh. I have to teach our guys how to do it properly and more importantly what they are testing for and fully to understand the relationship between the various different readings. My point is and always has been that a four year apprenticeship is not the be all and end all. Give these Electrical Trainee a bit of experience and they will be competent electricians. Dont be so elitist and snobbish about it, if you cant take the heat stay out of the kitchen

your wrong mate,when i left school to start college and most who done that will agree here,we all thought it would be playing with cable etc,wrong from school straight back into the classroom,gutted,the theory is boring as,but its the theory that makes you understand about electricity not just how a socket works,granted most never used that theory when out their time,but if needed as you move up the electrical ladder or going alone in contracting,like riding a bike it all comes back..

 

[trev]

Dont be so elitist and snobbish about it, if you cant take the heat stay out of the kitchen

I'm being neither elitist or snobbish mate, when I finished my apprenticeship I was expected and it was demanded of me to be able to work in any sector of our industry. I'll admit that there were things that I struggled with but I'll freely admit sometimes even now after 29 years post qual experience that every now and again I have to stand back and scratch my head and think about what I'm doing and how I'm going to do it.
None of us know it all but like I said earlier, I'd take a time served guy over a Electrical Trainee any time, the reason being they're more likely to have an idea about what is expected of them

 

[Engineer54]

"in depth theory" at colleges, your having a laugh. I have to teach our guys how to do it properly and more importantly what they are testing for and fully to understand the relationship between the various different readings. My point is and always has been that a four year apprenticeship is not the be all and end all. Give these Electrical Trainee a bit of experience and they will be competent electricians. Dont be so elitist and snobbish about it, if you cant take the heat stay out of the kitchen

No idea who your trying to fool here, but it isn't working, your clearly living in cloud cuckoo land!!...
We see evidence of just how qualified these guys are every single day here on the Forum. So what's your excuse for all these Threads started by Electrical Trainee boy's asking all the very basic questions...

No-ones being elitist or snobbish here, were just telling it as it is. 4 year indentured apprenticeships WORK and have always worked since time immemorial, not just in the Electrical industry but in all sections of the technical and trade industries. But here are you, saying it's a load of old clap trap!! haha!!
I suspect you have never been through an apprenticeship either, which is also why you are brandishing this crap about here...

 

[thw1965]

your wrong mate,when i left school to start college and most who done that will agree here,we all thought it would be playing with cable etc,wrong from school straight back into the classroom,gutted,the theory is boring as,but its the theory that makes you understand about electricity not just how a socket works,granted most never used that theory when out their time,but if needed as you move up the electrical ladder or going alone in contracting,like riding a bike it all comes back..

Electrical theory isn`t boring at all if its taught properly.

"Numpties", no they were the best ones i could find in the 2 colleges tbh.

My point is that you give me a 5 week fast course guy for a year and a guy whos done 2 years at college for a year and I`ll turn them both into good sparkies. The issue is experience. Lots of lads are going through college without an apprenticeship and coming out with no experience and they are no better or worse than a Electrical Trainee. i will concede that in industrial work they do have the upper hand but that is often detrimental to domestic work because the level of the finish, from a visual point of view needs to be so much better in domestic and light commercial. What amazes me is that people are griping about not being able to compete with the the very same guys who they are ripping into. If you cant compete your doing something wrong. I have no problem

 

[thw1965]

No idea who your trying to fool here, but it isn't working, your clearly living in cloud cuckoo land!!...
We see evidence of just how qualified these guys are every single day here on the Forum. So what's your excuse for all these Threads started by Electrical Trainee boy's asking all the very basic questions...

No-ones being elitist or snobbish here, were just telling it as it is. 4 year indentured apprenticeships WORK and have always worked since time immemorial, not just in the Electrical industry but in all sections of the technical and trade industries. But here are you, saying it's a load of old clap trap!! haha!!
I suspect you have never been through an apprenticeship either, which is also why you are brandishing this crap about here...

Well your wrong there, and Ive trained a few too. PLEASE read my posts, Im saying that with EXPERIENCE they are as good NOT without experience

 

[trev]

But how about a Electrical Trainee or a newly qualified spark who you could reasonably expect to need no training.
Which one are you going to employ? And how much are you going to pay them?

 

[Andy 7671]

I think I get in now, ..

You are saying someone who goes to college 2 nights a week,gaining no site experience is not a lot different to Electrical Trainee, right OK.

You must be a naturally gifted man, cos I found 236 PT2 science and principles hard work,

Fair go on a level playing field

 

[alarm man]

i will concede that in industrial work they do have the upper hand but that is often detrimental to domestic work because the level of the finish, from a visual point of view needs to be so much better in domestic and light commercial.

are you joking,most domestic cable is hidden,industrial its all on show,theres no hiding in industrial

 

[Engineer54]

Well your wrong there, and Ive trained a few too. PLEASE read my posts, Im saying that with EXPERIENCE they are as good NOT without experience

I'm not the one that's wrong, certainly not in this instance!! I've have been reading what you have been posting, and it just doesn't add up!! Read all about your statement on 4 year Indentured Apprenticeships being a load of clap trap too. As i said before, no idea who your trying to fool here but it certainly isn't going to be me!! ...And it seems not many others here either!!

 

[thw1965]

So now your saying someone out of a modern apprenticeship needs no training? Look tbh whatever i say here is being cherry picked, My point is and always has been that I have no problem competing in the market place with these guys because I have a good reputation built on years of experience and high quality workmanship. If I couldnt compete then I may well feel differently. Modern Apprenticeships are dying, there are a number of reasons for this. Mainly do to over-regulation. ALL I have said is that given a guy whos been through an apprenticeship and a guy whos been through a Electrical Trainee course after a few years experience you`d be hard pressed to tell the diference.
I stand by my comment that the quality of teaching at colleges is letting lads down.
I agree that a 4 year apprentice is going to be more competent than a Electrical Trainee course guy but NOT if he has the experience too. Iwill say one more time its about experience NOT the course you went on. Im not defending the posts that appear here asking how to connect a 2-way light switch, Ive seen a couple today that were laughable. Ive only visited here a few times cos of work loads.

 

[thw1965]

I'm not the one that's wrong, certainly not in this instance!! I've have been reading what you have been posting, and it just doesn't add up!! Read all about your statement on 4 year Indentured Apprenticeships being a load of clap trap too. As i said before, no idea who your trying to fool here but it certainly isn't going to be me!! ...And it seems not many others here either!!

What I said was "This idea that the only way is apprenticeships is out dated clap trap". The key word is ONLY. My point about cherry picking is proven

 

[Engineer54]

What I said was "This idea that the only way is apprenticeships is out dated clap trap". The key word is ONLY. My point about cherry picking is proven

Strange then, that Apprenticeships have been PROVED to work and work well since before you or i were born, and Electrical Trainee training courses have been PROVED not to work!!
The key word here is PROVED!! lol!!

 

[Bakerboy]

I think that it's more down to the individual and there own personal skill set. I was in college with some complete numb skulls and they would fail resit fail resit until it was a matter of memory for them to pass there exam. And even then they hadn't actually learned anything. Some sparkles are good and some not so good regardless of training techniques.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

what it is ...is crappy 5 week wonders that dont know jack ****.......just annoy me more by the day......and to all them lot that cant be arsed to look in the relevent books....stop coming in here and asking about rubbish like diversity calcs cable sizes and the type/rating of overcurrent to use and all that......look in the book first will you.....

 

[D80]

Seen plenty of useless folk come through 4 year apprenticeships, but that seems to be more down to the person than anything else, although if the firm is using them for cheap labour and not giving them the right experience then the apprenticeship is a waste of time.

The most recent apprentices I've seen seem to be a rather lazy bunch who have no interest in anything, and grunt instead of talking! Seems to be more a thing with the young of today. A Electrical Trainee (none exist over here thank ----!) will have spent a fair bit of money and be keen to learn asap, getting them working in the right firm would be a good thing, the trouble is they can do a job (or two, at most) and be registered with a scheme and practising what they learnt in 5 weeks on the general public!

 

[Spudnik]

Im all for heated debate, however, keep it friendly please.

 

[mickys86]

the trouble is they can do a job (or two, at most) and be registered with a scheme and practising what they learnt in 5 weeks on the general public!

This is the biggest problem, I go to college with some complete muppets one of em got confused about testing an RCD he put the blue on the neutral green on live and asked where the brown probe goes!!! but they are going to come out of college with a qualification! Even the tutor is shocked most of time. I believe everyone should be on a type of probation when they come out. Minimum 1 year working with someone

All this crap about cheap labour is absolute B.......

Your there to learn, why should you expect a fortune in wages when you don't know what you are doing????

I am 29 yrs old in my 3rd yr at college. My boss pays me £60 a day. I learn something knew nearly every day and I'm already looking forward to Monday's work.

 

[gdr7671]

I'm being neither elitist or snobbish mate, when I finished my apprenticeship I was expected and it was demanded of me to be able to work in any sector of our industry. I'll admit that there were things that I struggled with but I'll freely admit sometimes even now after 29 years post qual experience that every now and again I have to stand back and scratch my head and think about what I'm doing and how I'm going to do it.
None of us know it all but like I said earlier, I'd take a time served guy over a Electrical Trainee any time, the reason being they're more likely to have an idea about what is expected of them

exactly what i said earlier, i agree

 

[brucelee]

Hi
I agree at college on lv3 they didnt know how to carry out the tests and i having learned it from a 6 week course and then doing the 2391 which i taught myself before going on the 8 week evening course was asked to show them how to carry out safe iso and dead tests 3 times we have done this as they were rushed through 2330 lv2 and didnt get much of a chance i and another lad who has done 2391 but like me didnt finish his apprenticeship but very experienced in industrial commercial etc think he has been douing it for 17yrs without the Quals
we are the ones who get asked as we seem the only ones with the answers about inspection and testing we are the ones who get to show them and then watch them so what does that say really for the way the training providers and C&G college or private course we dont mind and in areas concerning things i dont know or not sure of would ask them if i needed to
these courses arent enough and without practical hands on experience lacking in lots of areas
Its the government and whoever runs this shambles that are to blame and anyone who is involved in ripping all of us off from all these courses and books they charge us for and the scams we have to join they have this set up for one reason its just about money and down to you what you learn and get from it

if a fully qualified electrician with yrs of experience would take me on for a reasonable wage which i could survive off then I would jump at the chance to gain the knowledge and experience in all areas of electrical installation/maintainance
the proper way was the old way college and work experience
but as i found it was impossible to get a employer to take me on these days without qualifications
i gave my apprenticeship up as a 17 yr old and oh how i am paying for it now and have done over the yrs
i have worked onsite doing new build for yrs /rewires bits of commercial and industrial
all for peanuts maintainance of a commercial premises including the electrics and everything else they could get us to do

but to work for and learn from a good experienced spark would be invaluable and a chance i would grasp with both hands

and by the way i think its ridiculous to get a time served approved industrial or commercial spark to join a scam so he can do some domestic work

If they havnt proved they are competent then who is

 

[UNG]

Lets face it it only takes 2 years to train an airline pilot. Scrap the 5 week courses and colleges and do it that way, everyone then has a shot

And a lot longer to train the guy that repairs the plane IMO that's where the responsibility in aviation is

 

[UNG]

Having caught up with the last 6 or 7 pages I find it interesting that some rubbish the theory side of the job as irrelevant, while a a lot of it is not used day to day there is a good chance that some of it will be needed at some point.

I agree that some that have done the X years at college will be useless but they can then be divided into two categories those that thought becoming a spark was easy and gets them off the dole for a while and those who are useless on the tools and are using it as a stepping stone to other things

I have yet to see any Electrical Trainee come on here and list a core electrical qualification in their list of achievements they only list what are considered to be additional qualifications for a properly qualified spark.

With regard to the finish of work being to a higher standard in the domestic / commercial sector can only mean they have never worked in the industrial sector where installations can become something of an art form on show for all to see

Having worked with Skill centre sparks ( the 1980's version of the Electrical Trainee for those to young to know) who had three month's training yes there were good one's and bad one's who are still in the trade as qualified sparks, but as training is never mentioned in any reports you see or hear about when accidents and deaths occur we never know what level the qualified spark is at

This is a debate that is going to run on and on and I have no doubt that had forums been around 25 - 30 years ago it would have been done to death then with the skill centre spark issue and the qualifications and experience or lack of

Until the training providers are regulated and the scheme providers are better regulated then the industry will continue to be plagued by poor training and people without core electrical qualifications will continue to masquerade as "fully qualified electricians" and drive the industry down in the long term

 

[Dave 85]

This seems to have descended it an argument between, on the one side, people working in industrial maintenance type jobs and (alarm fitters?) and on the other side people running successful companys carrying out mainly domestic and light commercial.
The industrial boys are claiming that DI's should be able to do their job even if they never have any intention of doing so....eh? why?
Of course industrial work is far more technically challenging and requires greater education and technical knowledge, but no serious company is going to emply a Electrical Trainee to do this typr of work. The domestic, self employed, running a small firm whatever route requires less technaical knowledge but requires far more of other skills: Social skills, business sense, good judgement, ability to work quickley and efficently, customer interaction, dispute solving, book keeping...I could go on for ever.

Now none of us DI's are claiming that a guy who works in a factory all his life should know how to do all this, just because 'We have to know it' and 'thats the way its all ways been'. Its all nonsense, its like saying a cab driver should have an HGV liscense.
Tbh I put a lot of it down to good old fashioned bitterness..."Its not fair, I had to train 5 years and now a guy who trained 5 weeks is making twice as much money as me, boo hoo he must be a cowboy I'll just go online and abuse him"

Life isn't fair, times are changing, the economy's up **** creek, if you're really that great an electrician a few less qual'd blokes coming on to the market shouldn't really cause you any huge problems, it certainly doesn't me.

Btw-all the name calling, saying that anyone who doesn't rubbish the Electrical Trainee concept is "obviously a Electrical Trainee pretending to be a proper sparky"
Bit fekin childish no?

 

[highspark]

Industrial work is exactly the same in principle as any other sector of the industy. The only difference being the containment, 3 phase, size of conducters and termination of conductors. Thats all. A properly trained electrician can turn his hand to any of these. Because he has been trained to do so!..................................................................It doesnt matter how good a spark you are the customers can't differenciate on first sight between a DI Electrical Trainee and a fully qualified 5 year experienced guy because we all carry the same bloody badge....PART P APPROVED. THE CUSTOMERS ALL THINK THAT PART P APPROVED MEANS FULLY QUALIFIED TIME SERVED! That isn't the case!

 

[TaffyDuck]

Hi guys I`m new to this forum but having read through a number of threads Im hoping that I`ll find it useful and hopefully be of use in return.
I guess I could be considered a half way house in this debate.
I didn`t do a proper apprenticeship. I worked from 18-25 as an electricians mate in mainly commercial and light industrial. Then as it was before Part P I moved into domestic mainly. Nowadays I do mainly 80% domestic and 10% commercial 10% light industrial. I have no experience of heavy industrial other than theoretical knowledge that is.

So where do i fit in? I did 16th on night courses at college, 17th upgrade at the same place, 2391 on a fast course in Birmingham, I also have numerous qualifications in Fire Alarm systems, CCTV etc. Part P since 2005. With a total of about 20 years experience all in, does that make me a proper sparky or not?

Who knows. I know that the phone is constantly ringing for which I am grateful in these tough times.

I know that I would be happy to put my work up against any I have seen in the fields I work in. being an experienced fire alarm engineer I know how frustrating it is when you see a job, which you have quoted for being installed by a qualified sparks who has no clue about how to zone a system, how to commission it properly or for that matter how to maintain it. When you`ve been undercut with a low quality system, badly installed and not up to BS5839 but they got the job because they were cheaper. This happens constantly with "qualified proper sparks" who think putting a fire alarm in is just running a few cables and chucking the batteries in.

But I guess thats life. Some are good too be fair but many havent got a clue.

We often get asked to take on maintainace contracts for buildings with new systems which are not up to standard.

Qualified proper sparks often tread on the toes of other associated trades, burglar alarms are another one, where they dont have the knowledge to complete the job properly. Electrically safe it may be, but up to NSI standards its often not.

Qualifications without experience are like a bow without an arrow. Pointless. But electricians often, when it comes to fire alarms particularly, have neither, These fast courses are good for things like 2391 but I struggle to see what can be learned from scratch practically in a few weeks. A good electricain can learn on one of these courses how to design, install, certify and maintain fire alarm systems but most never bother.

So they have their place, but not I think for basic training, for that you need a good mix of practical, theoretical and time.

 

[Welchyboy]

As for proper sparks having the same badge as a Electrical Trainee, thats part of the reason i went NIC A/C

my pride simply couldnt handle the fact that a chippie down my street has a DI sticker on his van and 'carpenter and domestic electrician' written across the rear doors!

As far as im concerned a 'Part P qualified spark' means naff all to me to be honest and by the sound of things, after the re-drafting of the document has been concluded, we will all be back where we started from pre-2005, except of course £450 per year less well off!!

 

[Dave 85]

As for proper sparks having the same badge as a Electrical Trainee, thats part of the reason i went NIC A/C

my pride simply couldnt handle the fact that a chippie down my street has a DI sticker on his van and 'carpenter and domestic electrician' written across the rear doors!

As far as im concerned a 'Part P qualified spark' means naff all to me to be honest and by the sound of things, after the re-drafting of the document has been concluded, we will all be back where we started from pre-2005, except of course £450 per year less well off!!

You make a good point, but a chippie with 5 weeks intensive electrical training and subject to an annual assessment sticking a few extra sockets in a kitchen is better than a chippie with none of the above doing it, and thats what he undoubtably would have done pre part P.

Hell I'm just gonna throw caution to the wind and say it......I have no problem with part P. Im glad its there, a lot of my work is kitchen and bathroom refurbs and before part P a lot of the fitters tell me they used to do a lot of the wiring themselves, now they won't touch it. This is good for me. I like being assessed once a year, it keeps me on my toes and up to scratch. I dont mind paying the £350 reg fee, its worth it for me.

I hear far more often "my old electrician retired early because of part P so I need a new one" than "sorry your price has been beaten by a guy who was working at tescos 2 months ago but is now a registered sparky" again, this is all good for me.

I think a lot of what fuels the hatred amongst old timers is 1: fear of change and 2: fear of competition.
To be fair though, Im young I've never known anything else.

 

[Welchyboy]

You make a good point, but a chippie with 5 weeks intensive electrical training and subject to an annual assessment sticking a few extra sockets in a kitchen is better than a chippie with none of the above doing it, and thats what he undoubtably would have done pre part P.

Hell I'm just gonna throw caution to the wind and say it......I have no problem with part P. Im glad its there, a lot of my work is kitchen and bathroom refurbs and before part P a lot of the fitters tell me they used to do a lot of the wiring themselves, now they won't touch it. This is good for me. I like being assessed once a year, it keeps me on my toes and up to scratch. I dont mind paying the £350 reg fee, its worth it for me.

I hear far more often "my old electrician retired early because of part P so I need a new one" than "sorry your price has been beaten by a guy who was working at tescos 2 months ago but is now a registered sparky" again, this is all good for me.

I think a lot of what fuels the hatred amongst old timers is 1: fear of change and 2: fear of competition.
To be fair though, Im young I've never known anything else.

dave, i think your dead right! at least they have test gear and are at least trying their best to comply, and yes i too feel since Part P i have had lots more work from others trades that would of otherwise done it themselves, i just hate the fact that afterwhat ive gone through to get where i am now, im visually in the same bracket as a 'chippie'

If it were me i would have started Part P with a much higher bar, and at a point where i thought things were at last starting to move in the right direction (similiar to gas safe system) its sad to see that now it will be more than likely watered down to worthlessness


at the end of the day its your own work and the service you provide which will make you stand out from other people, and get you the recommendations for more work!