Going beyond PAT testing

[vale.maio2]

I'm an employee of an electrical firm whose only service is PAT testing. Of course I have my 17th edition, Part P, both PAT test certificates and some other papers, you name it.
And no, it's not one of those "pay-to-slap" companies, on a good day I can test up to 150 items (in 9 to 10 hours) if there's no fail, just because I actually test and check every single item I come across; same thing goes for my colleagues.
Sometimes I come across things that, technically, go beyond PAT testing but they would make shiver any competent electrician (please, bear in mind that I was an electrician myself before being a full time PAT tester).
As an example, the other day I've found some sort of battery charger being used in zone 0 of a bathroom (yes, zone zero. That's correct. And no, it wasn't part of a SELV, just on a normal main ring socket), or a normal wall socket wired to the ring main, being used for a lawn mower for the back garden, despite that small chapter of the 17th called special locations.
My question is: as a PAT tester, am I allowed to point out these things to the clients? My company has no problem with that, but still I'm in doubt if I am allowed or not.
And before you ask yes, I do have the competence necessary to carry out those checks, the only bit I miss are the actual 2394 and 2395 papers, which I'm about to get.
EDIT: no, the company I work for is NOT forcing me to carry out checks that go beyond PAT testing. It's just me that I can't help it, if I notice something wrong I've got to notify it, no matter if it's not PAT testing related.

 

[davesparks]

What's wrong with a socket fed from a ring circuit being used for a lawnmower?

 

[Pete999]

I believe you or your company has a duty of care to it's customers, to this end and to cover my rear end I would note down your concerns pass them to your boss, that's your backside covered oh and keep a copy yourself.

 

[westward10]

Zone 0 is in the bath?

 

[vale.maio2]

What's wrong with a socket fed from a ring circuit being used for a lawnmower?

That I would never use a socket from the main ring to power a lawn mower. From the NIC website:
Sufficient circuits are provided to avoid danger and minimise inconvenience in the event of a fault.
Also, it might be considered part of a special location of sheds, garages and greenhouses. I can't quote you the exact regulation but I have it here, on my electrician's guide from the IET.

I believe you or your company has a duty of care to it's customers, to this end and to cover my rear end I would note down your concerns pass them to your boss, that's your backside covered oh and keep a copy yourself.

So I'm in the right by doing it, isn't it? Because that's what I've been doing until now, and I'm sure the company passes on those "fails" to the clients.

 

[vale.maio2]

Zone 0 is in the bath?

Yes indeed, it's the actual bath tub and the zone underneath it. Above it is zone 1.

 

[Pete999]

That I would never use a socket from the main ring to power a lawn mower. From the NIC website:
Sufficient circuits are provided to avoid danger and minimise inconvenience in the event of a fault.
Also, it might be considered part of a special location of sheds, garages and greenhouses. I can't quote you the exact regulation but I have it here, on my electrician's guide from the IET.


So I'm in the right by doing it, isn't it? Because that's what I've been doing until now, and I'm sure the company passes on those "fails" to the clients.

Never use a socket from the ring main (it's called a Ring Final Circuit RFC now) how else are you going to use an electric lawn mower if not from a socket, provided it protected by a RCD? The NICEIC website that would be an interesting read.

 

[vale.maio2]

Never use a socket from the ring main (it's called a Ring Final Circuit RFC now) how else are you going to use an electric lawn mower if not from a socket, provided it protected by a RCD? The NICEIC website that would be an interesting read.

I'm not saying that, I'm saying it should be used on its own socket with its own RCD, not part of the RFC (sorry, I'm not hooked up on the new nomenclature). The bad part, in my opinion, is that that particular socket was part of the house's RFC, and not under its own RCD. If something goes wrong you knock down half house; and that's where the "Sufficient circuits are provided to avoid danger and minimise inconvenience in the event of a fault." part kicks in.
Am I being too picky?

 

[westward10]

Yes indeed, it's the actual bath tub and the zone underneath it. Above it is zone 1.

Tis Zone 1 below the bath tub if it is accessible without the use of a tool. If a tool is required to access it then no Zone.

 

[westward10]

I'm not saying that, I'm saying it should be used on its own socket with its own RCD, not part of the RFC (sorry, I'm not hooked up on the new nomenclature). The bad part, in my opinion, is that that particular socket was part of the house's RFC, and not under its own RCD. If something goes wrong you knock down half house; and that's where the "Sufficient circuits are provided to avoid danger and minimise inconvenience in the event of a fault." part kicks in.
Am I being too picky?

I don't know how you are getting into this from a PA test.

 

[Pete999]

I'm not saying that, I'm saying it should be used on its own socket with its own RCD, not part of the RFC (sorry, I'm not hooked up on the new nomenclature). The bad part, in my opinion, is that that particular socket was part of the house's RFC, and not under its own RCD. If something goes wrong you knock down half house; and that's where the "Sufficient circuits are provided to avoid danger and minimise inconvenience in the event of a fault." part kicks in.
Am I being too picky?

How many households in this country do think have dedicated sockets for Use outside? yes I think you are being to picky, common sense rules in this area, not blindly following some edict written by alien entities.

 

[vale.maio2]

Tis Zone 1 below the bath tub if it is accessible without the use of a tool. If a tool is required to access it then no Zone.

Yes you're right, my mistake as I was writing in a rush. That power supply was actually inside the zone 0, as it was inside a large shower for wheelchairs.

 

[Ian1981]

That I would never use a socket from the main ring to power a lawn mower. From the NIC website:
Sufficient circuits are provided to avoid danger and minimise inconvenience in the event of a fault.
Also, it might be considered part of a special location of sheds, garages and greenhouses. I can't quote you the exact regulation but I have it here, on my electrician's guide from the IET.


So I'm in the right by doing it, isn't it? Because that's what I've been doing until now, and I'm sure the company passes on those "fails" to the clients.

Sheds and garages are not covered in part 7 of bs 7671 as they are not special installations/locations unlike your bathroom/shower room.
Nothing wrong with providing a external socket for using mobile /outdoor equipment provided rcd protection has been provided for said socket and its satisfactory for the external influences it encounters i.e. Correct ip rating.
If the lawnmower is plugged into an internal socket then yes socket ideally should be rcd protected

 

[Flanders]

Shed garages etc are not special locations and zone 0 is in the bath not under it , it would be interesting to see a battry charger IN the bath , as for you telling customers about dangerous situations you need to make sure they are dangerous situations before you give them incorrect information

Edit
Ian beet me to it
Edit
Just read your latest post you should tell the customer the the battery charger should not be located in the shower

 

[Ian1981]

It's a bit like an electrician doing an eicr and then pulling the clients appliances apart....

He's not there to check the appliances and your not there to check the fixed wiring.

 

[vale.maio2]

I don't know how you are getting into this from a PA test.

I'm not, I just take a note of it and report it to both the client and the company, that's it.

How many households in this country do think have dedicated sockets for Use outside? yes I think you are being to picky, common sense rules in this area, not blindly following some edict written by alien entities.

Well, my common sense tells me that is bad practice. I don't care how many houses use this solution.
How many times I've seen people proving a circuit isolated with a neon screwdriver...
Does it become acceptable just because many are doing it?
This is not blindly following some rules, this is just my common sense which might be different from yours or anyone else's.

 

[Flanders]

It's a bit like an electrician doing an eicr and then pulling the clients appliances apart....

He's not there to check the appliances and your not there to check the fixed wiring.

But if i was doing an eicr and noticed an appliance that was dangerous i would tell the customer not to use it , not just ignore it and hope the customer does not get an electric shock from it .

 

[Pete999]

I'm not, I just take a note of it and report it to both the client and the company, that's it.


Well, my common sense tells me that is bad practice. I don't care how many houses use this solution.
How many times I've seen people proving a circuit isolated with a neon screwdriver...
Does it become acceptable just because many are doing it?
This is not blindly following some rules, this is just my common sense which might be different from yours or anyone else's.

Only trying to help, I'm out

 

[westward10]

I am totally lost is this for a wheelchair charger or a lawnmower.

 

[Ian1981]

But if i was doing an eicr and noticed an appliance that was dangerous i would tell the customer not to use it , not just ignore it and hope the customer does not get an electric shock from it .

Yeah inform them but your not there to check appliances like kettles and toasters.

 

[mattg4321]

Yes you're right, my mistake as I was writing in a rush. That power supply was actually inside the zone 0, as it was inside a large shower for wheelchairs.

I very much doubt it'd be zone 0. Most likely zone 1.

Stick to PAT'ing mate

 

[westward10]

Doing a PAT you need to check suitability of equipment for the environment. I assume this is an accessible shower room and has no bath? Is it a charger or a power supply for the lift.

 

[Specialist]

I am totally lost is this for a wheelchair charger or a lawnmower.

From what I can read of it, The customer is using a wheelchair charger in a shower cubicle & the o/p doesn't agree with the use of a lawnmower plugged into a socket on an RFC. Apparently it's against 17th edition regs.

 

[vale.maio2]

Let me clear this out. I was talking about two problems in two different locations. One was a battery charger being used INSIDE a shower (so clearly zone 0), another problem was a lawn mower used on a RFC. Two different issues in two different places. Sorry about the confusion.
I know I'm there just to PAT test but, as most of you said, if I notice something wrong why not report it? Just let them be aware of the problem and tell them to get an electrician to fix it, if necessary. OC I won't be fixing anything, as I'm not there for that.
As for the common sense part I wasn't attacking anyone or saying "my opinion is better than yours". I'm just saying that MY common sense was telling me that the lawn mower thing was a no-no, but it might be acceptable for others.

 

[Flanders]

Yeah inform them but your not there to check appliances like kettles and toasters.

Yes i know but the OP is asking if he should report dangers he comes across that are not PAT relacted durring his PA testing not should he inpect the electrical installation. All I am saying is if you come across a danger of any kind be it electrical or other i would report the danger , but I would not go out of may way to find dangers that are not related to the job i am there to do

 

[mattg4321]

I assume if it is an accessible shower room, then it either has a very shallow shower basin or no shower basin/tray at all. In which case zone 0 only extends to 0.1m from the floor. Is the battery charger sitting on the floor of the shower!?

What do you think is wrong with plugging a lawnmower into a RFC?

 

[vale.maio2]

Yes i know but the OP is asking if he should report dangers he comes across that are not PAT relacted durring his PA testing not should he inpect the electrical installation. All I am saying is if you come across a danger of any kind be it electrical or other i would report the danger , but I would not go out of may way to find dangers that are not related to the job i am there to do

You got exactly my question. And as you said, I'm talking about potential hazards I stumble across, I'm not looking for them actively.

 

[Flanders]

Let me clear this out. I was talking about two problems in two different locations. One was a battery charger being used INSIDE a shower (so clearly zone 0), another problem was a lawn mower used on a RFC. Two different issues in two different places. Sorry about the confusion.
I know I'm there just to PAT test but, as most of you said, if I notice something wrong why not report it? Just let them be aware of the problem and tell them to get an electrician to fix it, if necessary. OC I won't be fixing anything, as I'm not there for that.
As for the common sense part I wasn't attacking anyone or saying "my opinion is better than yours". I'm just saying that MY common sense was telling me that the lawn mower thing was a no-no, but it might be acceptable for others.

Is the shower being used or is it now just a room used to charge the wheal chair , i have seen shower rooms used as store were the shower is still in place but has the water and electric isolated, (normally in commercial enviroments though)

 

[Specialist]

There's an awful lot of disabled people out there, that store their Wheelchairs / chargers in the shower / wetroom simply because they live in small houses & have nowhere else to put them.

 

[westward10]

Two questions then, is the shower room in use and is the charger suitable for the environment.

 

[vale.maio2]

Yes, the shower was being used, yes, the house was big enough to have it somewhere else (being more than 150 square meters) and no, it was not suitable for a wet environment, not being IP rated. But again, there's nothing I can do besides telling them it might be dangerous and to use it somewhere else. Luckily I was dealing with reasonable people so they moved it straight away inside a bedroom.

 

[Specialist]

Sorry gotta ask: What were you there to do ?, Don't think I've ever been asked to do a PA test in a domestic property.

 

[westward10]

The Code of Practice refers to suitability of equipment for the environment so you could have failed it on this basis.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I was at a domestic installation adding a spur to a kitchen RFC for a combi boiler.
I noticed on the other side of the kitchen a convector heater with no legs, sitting on top of the worktop.
The vents in the bottom of the heater were blocked by the worktop.
I pointed this out to the householder, pointing out that the lack of airflow could cause the element to overheat and fail or overheat and cause a fire.

 

[davesparks]

That I would never use a socket from the main ring to power a lawn mower. From the NIC website:
Sufficient circuits are provided to avoid danger and minimise inconvenience in the event of a fault.
Also, it might be considered part of a special location of sheds, garages and greenhouses. I can't quote you the exact regulation but I have it here, on my electrician's guide from the IET.

That is a personal opinion of yours, and not supported by the current regulations, your quote from the niceic doesn't even appear to support it as far as I can see.
Sheds garages and greenhouses are not a special location in bs7671, nor is there a special location that vaguely resembles such.

I believe you may be referring to regulation 314.1 which addresses the division of the installation into circuits. However this does not require individual circuits for each portable appliance, general socket circuits are provided for small appliances such as lawn mowers, and under this regulation they are kept separate from lighting circuits and circuits dedicated to specific uses.

 

[davesparks]

As for the common sense part I wasn't attacking anyone or saying "my opinion is better than yours". I'm just saying that MY common sense was telling me that the lawn mower thing was a no-no, but it might be acceptable for others.

Can you explain why you disagree with the use of a general socket circuit for a lawn mower?
Would you also extend this to other appliances?

 

[vale.maio2]

Here's the NIC website where I've found it and yes, it is referring to the 314.1, sorry I can't remember all the regulations numbers. I took a better look at the 7671 amendment 3 and yes you're right, technically a shed or an outdoor is not a special location so that's my mistake. I was misled by the IET guide to the building regulations, which lists garages and sheds with the special locations (part 5.7, 2015 edition).
Still, I would never use a lawn mower on the RFC for the same reason I'd give a shed its own RCBO (or a combination of RCD and MCB, not just one of them) because, being used outside, is more prone to tripping due to water, moist and damaged cable.
As for why I was PAT testing in a house, it was a social accommodation and we've been asked for a certificate by the company running it.

 

[Specialist]

Thanks Vale, appreciate the reply.

 

[westward10]

Forget the lawnmower millions of households are using one in this way.

 

[davesparks]

I prefer to put external sockets and lighting on their own circuits where possible,

Here's the NIC website where I've found it and yes, it is referring to the 314.1, sorry I can't remember all the regulations numbers. I took a better look at the 7671 amendment 3 and yes you're right, technically a shed or an outdoor is not a special location so that's my mistake. I was misled by the IET guide to the building regulations, which lists garages and sheds with the special locations (part 5.7, 2015 edition).
Still, I would never use a lawn mower on the RFC for the same reason I'd give a shed its own RCBO (or a combination of RCD and MCB, not just one of them) because, being used outside, is more prone to tripping due to water, moist and damaged cable.
As for why I was PAT testing in a house, it was a social accommodation and we've been asked for a certificate by the company running it.

You weren't misled by the IET guide, it is considered a special location in the building regulations for the purposes of applying part P of the building regulations. This is separate matter from bs7671.

Putting the shed on a separate supply makes perfect sense, but a lawnmower is a very different thing. A shed supply is by its nature outside permanently and susceptible to all weathers.
A lawnmower will only be outside and plugged in when it is in use. If it does develop a fault an cause the RCD to trip then it can be unplugged and the RCD reset, this is minimal disturbance in a domstic setting.