Going beyond PAT testing

[mattg4321]

Yes you're right, my mistake as I was writing in a rush. That power supply was actually inside the zone 0, as it was inside a large shower for wheelchairs.

I very much doubt it'd be zone 0. Most likely zone 1.

Stick to PAT'ing mate

 

[westward10]

Doing a PAT you need to check suitability of equipment for the environment. I assume this is an accessible shower room and has no bath? Is it a charger or a power supply for the lift.

 

[Specialist]

I am totally lost is this for a wheelchair charger or a lawnmower.

From what I can read of it, The customer is using a wheelchair charger in a shower cubicle & the o/p doesn't agree with the use of a lawnmower plugged into a socket on an RFC. Apparently it's against 17th edition regs.

 

[vale.maio2]

Let me clear this out. I was talking about two problems in two different locations. One was a battery charger being used INSIDE a shower (so clearly zone 0), another problem was a lawn mower used on a RFC. Two different issues in two different places. Sorry about the confusion.
I know I'm there just to PAT test but, as most of you said, if I notice something wrong why not report it? Just let them be aware of the problem and tell them to get an electrician to fix it, if necessary. OC I won't be fixing anything, as I'm not there for that.
As for the common sense part I wasn't attacking anyone or saying "my opinion is better than yours". I'm just saying that MY common sense was telling me that the lawn mower thing was a no-no, but it might be acceptable for others.

 

[Flanders]

Yeah inform them but your not there to check appliances like kettles and toasters.

Yes i know but the OP is asking if he should report dangers he comes across that are not PAT relacted durring his PA testing not should he inpect the electrical installation. All I am saying is if you come across a danger of any kind be it electrical or other i would report the danger , but I would not go out of may way to find dangers that are not related to the job i am there to do

 

[mattg4321]

I assume if it is an accessible shower room, then it either has a very shallow shower basin or no shower basin/tray at all. In which case zone 0 only extends to 0.1m from the floor. Is the battery charger sitting on the floor of the shower!?

What do you think is wrong with plugging a lawnmower into a RFC?

 

[vale.maio2]

Yes i know but the OP is asking if he should report dangers he comes across that are not PAT relacted durring his PA testing not should he inpect the electrical installation. All I am saying is if you come across a danger of any kind be it electrical or other i would report the danger , but I would not go out of may way to find dangers that are not related to the job i am there to do

You got exactly my question. And as you said, I'm talking about potential hazards I stumble across, I'm not looking for them actively.

 

[Flanders]

Let me clear this out. I was talking about two problems in two different locations. One was a battery charger being used INSIDE a shower (so clearly zone 0), another problem was a lawn mower used on a RFC. Two different issues in two different places. Sorry about the confusion.
I know I'm there just to PAT test but, as most of you said, if I notice something wrong why not report it? Just let them be aware of the problem and tell them to get an electrician to fix it, if necessary. OC I won't be fixing anything, as I'm not there for that.
As for the common sense part I wasn't attacking anyone or saying "my opinion is better than yours". I'm just saying that MY common sense was telling me that the lawn mower thing was a no-no, but it might be acceptable for others.

Is the shower being used or is it now just a room used to charge the wheal chair , i have seen shower rooms used as store were the shower is still in place but has the water and electric isolated, (normally in commercial enviroments though)

 

[Specialist]

There's an awful lot of disabled people out there, that store their Wheelchairs / chargers in the shower / wetroom simply because they live in small houses & have nowhere else to put them.

 

[westward10]

Two questions then, is the shower room in use and is the charger suitable for the environment.

 

[vale.maio2]

Yes, the shower was being used, yes, the house was big enough to have it somewhere else (being more than 150 square meters) and no, it was not suitable for a wet environment, not being IP rated. But again, there's nothing I can do besides telling them it might be dangerous and to use it somewhere else. Luckily I was dealing with reasonable people so they moved it straight away inside a bedroom.

 

[Specialist]

Sorry gotta ask: What were you there to do ?, Don't think I've ever been asked to do a PA test in a domestic property.

 

[westward10]

The Code of Practice refers to suitability of equipment for the environment so you could have failed it on this basis.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I was at a domestic installation adding a spur to a kitchen RFC for a combi boiler.
I noticed on the other side of the kitchen a convector heater with no legs, sitting on top of the worktop.
The vents in the bottom of the heater were blocked by the worktop.
I pointed this out to the householder, pointing out that the lack of airflow could cause the element to overheat and fail or overheat and cause a fire.

 

[davesparks]

That I would never use a socket from the main ring to power a lawn mower. From the NIC website:
Sufficient circuits are provided to avoid danger and minimise inconvenience in the event of a fault.
Also, it might be considered part of a special location of sheds, garages and greenhouses. I can't quote you the exact regulation but I have it here, on my electrician's guide from the IET.

That is a personal opinion of yours, and not supported by the current regulations, your quote from the niceic doesn't even appear to support it as far as I can see.
Sheds garages and greenhouses are not a special location in bs7671, nor is there a special location that vaguely resembles such.

I believe you may be referring to regulation 314.1 which addresses the division of the installation into circuits. However this does not require individual circuits for each portable appliance, general socket circuits are provided for small appliances such as lawn mowers, and under this regulation they are kept separate from lighting circuits and circuits dedicated to specific uses.

 

[davesparks]

As for the common sense part I wasn't attacking anyone or saying "my opinion is better than yours". I'm just saying that MY common sense was telling me that the lawn mower thing was a no-no, but it might be acceptable for others.

Can you explain why you disagree with the use of a general socket circuit for a lawn mower?
Would you also extend this to other appliances?

 

[vale.maio2]

Here's the NIC website where I've found it and yes, it is referring to the 314.1, sorry I can't remember all the regulations numbers. I took a better look at the 7671 amendment 3 and yes you're right, technically a shed or an outdoor is not a special location so that's my mistake. I was misled by the IET guide to the building regulations, which lists garages and sheds with the special locations (part 5.7, 2015 edition).
Still, I would never use a lawn mower on the RFC for the same reason I'd give a shed its own RCBO (or a combination of RCD and MCB, not just one of them) because, being used outside, is more prone to tripping due to water, moist and damaged cable.
As for why I was PAT testing in a house, it was a social accommodation and we've been asked for a certificate by the company running it.

 

[Specialist]

Thanks Vale, appreciate the reply.

 

[westward10]

Forget the lawnmower millions of households are using one in this way.

 

[davesparks]

I prefer to put external sockets and lighting on their own circuits where possible,

Here's the NIC website where I've found it and yes, it is referring to the 314.1, sorry I can't remember all the regulations numbers. I took a better look at the 7671 amendment 3 and yes you're right, technically a shed or an outdoor is not a special location so that's my mistake. I was misled by the IET guide to the building regulations, which lists garages and sheds with the special locations (part 5.7, 2015 edition).
Still, I would never use a lawn mower on the RFC for the same reason I'd give a shed its own RCBO (or a combination of RCD and MCB, not just one of them) because, being used outside, is more prone to tripping due to water, moist and damaged cable.
As for why I was PAT testing in a house, it was a social accommodation and we've been asked for a certificate by the company running it.

You weren't misled by the IET guide, it is considered a special location in the building regulations for the purposes of applying part P of the building regulations. This is separate matter from bs7671.

Putting the shed on a separate supply makes perfect sense, but a lawnmower is a very different thing. A shed supply is by its nature outside permanently and susceptible to all weathers.
A lawnmower will only be outside and plugged in when it is in use. If it does develop a fault an cause the RCD to trip then it can be unplugged and the RCD reset, this is minimal disturbance in a domstic setting.