I could be wrong posting here but i need help

[imjustanonymous]

Hi,"Technically" has no part in this,either your landlord gave permission,or not. To avoid you having to rectify the issue,to the landlord's satisfaction,you would need this written permission.

If the landlord has informed you that the quality and safety,is a problem,then they have accepted knowledge of this,and would have to have the installation either fixed,or removed. This will undoubtedly be in your tenancy agreement.

I am not trying to sink your boat,and i appreciate,that this work was done with the best intentions,but i think your primary task,should not be chasing the muppets who let you down, You need to be ensuring the landlord is satisfied with the situation,as their first point of call,regarding any monies due,will be you.

The landlord gave permission for this to be done, just not through them, they said do it privately, the main concerns are the safety of the whole job, the landlord has said to go to the guy who did this in the first place and tell him to fix it, then to call the landlord who will come back to inspect again and then we can get another electrician to connect it again

I have called a few traders who i got from checkatrade and yelp, i explained to them what has happened, theyve all said to go back to that guy and get him to fix it or for him to reimburse money or to get someone else on his behalf to do the job, i seem to be stuck here

 

[imjustanonymous]

Why do you want the same guy back to fix this? Get a proper electrician to re-do the whole lot.

Take plenty of pictures and get the proper electrician to issue a independent report. You can use this to threaten the handy man with legal action to reclaim some your money. Draw a line under this and move on having learnt your lesson.

Wouldnt it be principle for him to fix what he messed up?

The independent report would contain all the mistakes that have happened correct? Where would i get legal action from for this?

 

[imjustanonymous]

Did you say he actually tried to defend his work?!?!?!

He did try to defend the work, he said that the inspection man from the housing association that saw this first, was not knowledgeable, was being abusive to him and he was saying how he has over 20 years of experience and how he does jobs all the time with no negative feedback given to him

 

[imjustanonymous]

Hi and good morning.
I cannot offer advice nor should you construe my comments as such. What I will do is to offer an opinion.
First over and above all I would NOT take court action. It will cost a lot of money and more than you could recover.

This is what I would do. You decide if this would be suitable for you.
1 : Obtain a survey of what needs to be done to make the installation compliant. This would be best obtained from the housing association, who I hope would be helpful to you in the circumstances. If not pay for a survey by a competent electrical contractor who should set out in writing what is required to make the work good.
2 : Write formally to your shower man and tell him that the installation has not been installed in accordance with the requirements of BS7671, and that following a safety inspection by the housing association, the shower has been disconnected by them.
Confirm that you enclose a survey report that details the remedial work that needs to be undertaken to bring the installation into compliance with BS7671.
3 : Request that he makes good the work and brings it up to a standard that complies with BS7671 and the relevant BS7671 Certificates are issued.
4 : Advise him that he is free to make good the work himself, or appoint a competent contractor to do so on his behalf, and that the total cost of the remedial works and issue of the relevant Certificates will be borne by himself. Whichever way he wishes to proceed with the work he should supply you with evidence that those who will do the work are suitably qualified and competent to do this by means of registration with a suitable trade association, and membership of a Competent Person Scheme in respect of the electrical inspection and testing work.
5 : Tell him that for the avoidance of doubt completion of the remedial works will only occur once the relevant test and inspection certificates have been made available, and the housing association landlord is satisfied with the standard of the remedial work.
6 : Request that he replies within 14 days of receipt of this letter setting out how he intends to proceed, and that if he does not reply within that you reserve the right to instruct a Contractor to undertake the remedial work, and will expect him to reimburse you the full costs of this.

Keep a copy of this letter, and the attachments, which if you have them should include any evidence from the housing association as to the condition/disconnection of the supply, and the survey report that sets out the work required to make the installation compliant. Do NOT discuss money at this stage.

Send the letter recorded delivery, and keep the receipt. You should also state at the start of the letter that it has been sent by recorded delivery to confirm receipt.

Wait for 21 days before moving to the next stage.

I believe you have a very firm opinion in which has made good points, i shall write to him. The BS7671, will this also comply with the Consumer rights act 2015? For where the legislation for service provided by trader was mot done using reasonable skill and care?

What would the stage be for after 21 days have passed?

 

[imjustanonymous]

Why would you get a painter to install your electric shower?

Bludi sure I wouldn't get a spark to paint my living room!

Oh...no...wait a minute...

Sparks can paint! No-one's going to die if they use the wrong stuff...doh!

As far as i heard, he could do electrician jobs and he has the certificates for it also, which he showed my mum not me as i wasnt here at the time, our fault, we get it

 

[john waters]

Pictures are here, i have put a space between the letter S and :

IMG-20190416-WA0008 - https://ibb.co/dMnxxw8
IMG-20190416-WA0009 - https://ibb.co/nnjHBSv
IMG-20190416-WA0012 - https://ibb.co/ZYjGsSV
IMG-20190416-WA0013 - https://ibb.co/bbyfmtF
IMG-20190416-WA0014 - https://ibb.co/s2wcbbC
IMG-20190416-WA0015 - https://ibb.co/0VM3ytW
IMG-20190416-WA0016 - https://ibb.co/KXZ2ZYv
IMG-20190416-WA0018 - https://ibb.co/Z619w1T
IMG-20190416-WA0019 - https://ibb.co/BVZRg88
IMG-20190416-WA0020 - https://ibb.co/mTWrnk0
IMG-20190416-WA0021 - https://ibb.co/j6qFYXX
IMG-20190416-WA0022 - https://ibb.co/SvK1HfC
IMG-20190416-WA0023 - https://ibb.co/VxDpt2f
IMG-20190416-WA0024 - https://ibb.co/6rYGXV4
IMG-20190416-WA0025 - https://ibb.co/zmTrNDq

did he tie his horse up outside

 

[imjustanonymous]

Back to basics on this whole post. Lesson learnt I'm afraid to say. Get a qualified spark in and demand to see his qualifications etc if you're not sure. Let the spark decide what can be saved and what needs removing. Get him to certify it (not someone else). Then let others know about the "handy man" and not to use him for electrical work. The guy that signed his work off and certified it needs to be mentioned as well as he has no right to self certify due to him not being a member of any scheme. I would think the NIC or Nappit or whoever would not take lightly to someone using their certificates when they are no longer a member. They would probably pursue him for you and give him a good rogering!

I have spoken to the guy that signed off the work, he said he doesnt remember it, doesnt want to come round to see it, and in the end he said it will have nothing to do with him as he didnt actually do the installation. Since he is no longer a member of any of the bodies, nothing can be done to him because his last membership was with Scoma i believe in 2015 and the job was done in 2016

On the certificate he gave to me, there was no mention or logo of the bodies but the certificate looked odd

 

[imjustanonymous]

Back to basics on this whole post. Lesson learnt I'm afraid to say. Get a qualified spark in and demand to see his qualifications etc if you're not sure. Let the spark decide what can be saved and what needs removing. Get him to certify it (not someone else). Then let others know about the "handy man" and not to use him for electrical work. The guy that signed his work off and certified it needs to be mentioned as well as he has no right to self certify due to him not being a member of any scheme. I would think the NIC or Nappit or whoever would not take lightly to someone using their certificates when they are no longer a member. They would probably pursue him for you and give him a good rogering!

I have spoken to the guy that signed off the work, he said he doesnt remember it, doesnt want to come round to see it, and in the end he said it will have nothing to do with him as he didnt actually do the installation. Since he is no longer a member of any of the bodies, nothing can be done to him because his last membership was with Scoma i believe in 2015 and the job was done in 2016

On the certificate he gave to me, there was no mention or logo of the bodies but the certificate looked odd

 

[DPG]

You don't want these guys back. You need a proper electrician who do the work and give you a certificate.

 

[imjustanonymous]

I feel sorry for you, this is an abortion of a job.

It would be quicker to list the things that are right about it than wrong simply because in those picture I saw nothing done correctly.

You do not want this man back to make good as he does not know what is good.

Would there be any to retrieve money back from him or for him to get someone on his behalf to fix this? I agree with the quality of a job being so poor, said to everyone i get its my mistake but he was referred, i just thought it would have been principle for him to rectify this all

 

[imjustanonymous]

Cut your losses and get someone new in to rip it out and redo it. It's a shame you've had to go through this though.

Cant even imagine how much and how long that would take for it to be done

 

[DPG]

Cant even imagine how much and how long that would take for it to be done

The job should not take long.

 

[GBDamo]

Wouldnt it be principle for him to fix what he messed up?

The independent report would contain all the mistakes that have happened correct? Where would i get legal action from for this?

Would there be any to retrieve money back from him or for him to get someone on his behalf to fix this? I agree with the quality of a job being so poor, said to everyone i get its my mistake but he was referred, i just thought it would have been principle for him to rectify this all

I would normally agree but this guy is so totally and utterly incompetent, unsafely so.

You can give him a detailed list of faults but he doesn't posses the skills or knowledge to remedy them correctly.

Contractually, and very begrudgingly, I'd offer him the opportunity to hire someone competent to do the work stating in the letter your belief he is not competent, attach your list of faults from your LLs assessor.

Then you could try Money Claim On Line but that process will insist you have given him opportunity to put this right.

Sadly you wont see a penny back from him, nor will he pay for the job to be corrected. Unfortunately the cost of other routes to recovery are prohibitive.

 

[imjustanonymous]

did he tie his horse up outside

He so did

 

[imjustanonymous]

I would normally agree but this guy is so totally and utterly incompetent, unsafely so.

You can give him a detailed list of faults but he doesn't posses the skills or knowledge to remedy them correctly.

Contractually, and very begrudgingly, I'd offer him the opportunity to hire someone competent to do the work stating in the letter your belief he is not competent, attach your list of faults from your LLs assessor.

Then you could try Money Claim On Line but that process will insist you have given him opportunity to put this right.

Sadly you wont see a penny back from him, nor will he pay for the job to be corrected. Unfortunately the cost of other routes to recovery are prohibitive.

What if he refuses to get someone to do this on his behalf also? What can i say to him that may feel like he is being threatened to rectify this

So i could be at a loss then

 

[GBDamo]

Would there be any to retrieve money back from him or for him to get someone on his behalf to fix this? I agree with the quality of a job being so poor, said to everyone i get its my mistake but he was referred, i just thought it would have been principle for him to rectify this all

What if he refuses to get someone to do this on his behalf also? What can i say to him that may feel like he is being threatened to rectify this

So i could be at a loss then

MCOL - Money Claim Online - Welcome - https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/web/mcol/welcome

you need to do some reading, unless you want to sit in a leather chair in my shed and be charged £250/hour for it.

 

[imjustanonymous]

MCOL - Money Claim Online - Welcome - https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/web/mcol/welcome

you need to do some reading, unless you want to sit in a leather chair in my shed and be charged £250/hour for it.

Thank you very much

If the chair is comfortable, i dont mind

 

[45140]

GBDamo, apologies but I must take issue with your post and advice.

Contractually, and very begrudgingly, I'd offer him the opportunity to hire someone competent to do the work stating in the letter your belief he is not competent, attach your list of faults from your LLs assessor.

Absolutely wrong. Under no circumstances should you ever accuse someone of being incompetent unless you really do have a stack of evidence and even then it really should not be done. The person making the claim would need to prove their own competence to have reached such a judgement.

Then you could try Money Claim On Line but that process will insist you have given him opportunity to put this right.

Any legal redress will require that the shower man is given the opportunity to put matters right. That is exactly what the claimant needs to allow him to do.

Sadly you wont see a penny back from him.

Your opinion, but not correct

...nor will he pay for the job to be corrected.

Oh yes he will...and he will pay substantially for it

.unfortunately the cost of other routes to recovery are prohibitive.

There is no need to proceed beyond the online small claims court with a transfer of the judgement to the High Court - which cost is recoverable on enforcement.

 

[GBDamo]

GBDamo, apologies but I must take issue with your post and advice.

Actually you don't, you've mostly written the same advice differently expecting a different outcome.

Absolutely wrong. Under no circumstances should you ever accuse someone of being incompetent unless you really do have a stack of evidence and even then it really should not be done. The person making the claim would need to prove their own competence to have reached such a judgement.

His LLs electrician has disconnected the installation and condemned it, so it is not me advising the OP to claim the cowboy is incompetence the OP has received professional advice stating it as fact, hence why i suggested attaching the LLs assessment.

Any legal redress will require that the shower man is given the opportunity to put matters right. That is exactly what the claimant needs to allow him to do.

I do believe there is an echo in here, in here, in here

Your opinion, but not correct

...in your opinion, we'll see though.

Oh yes he will...and he will pay substantially for it

I refer the learned gentleman to my earlier answer.

There is no need to proceed beyond the online small claims court with a transfer of the judgement to the High Court - which cost is recoverable on enforcement.

In my opinion, without a written contract or other sound proof a contract has been entered into and between whom then there is precious little for MCOL to settle.

 

[PEG]

.....If Tescos were still making burgers out of this horse....it would be very tender...

 

[Pete999]

An old saying I will always remember "If you can p--- you can paint"

I know that's a fact cus I made a right mess of our Kitchen before I had my Prostate Op.

 

[Intoelectrics]

I do admit its my fault for hiring him but it was through referrals so i thought i could trust them also

Who could i go to about taking this to court or reporting him?

I'm not qualified or experienced enough to offer any sort of legal advice. My suggestion would be to speak to citizens advice and/or trading standards. From what you say the landlord's own contractor has looked at the job and condemned it. There might be some merit in getting in a qualified spark to do an independent report. The cost of this maybe recoverable if you did manage to win a court order. But it might be that you end up stumping up to rectify this at your own cost. Like I said I couldn't advise you on this.

Either way, if you want the shower to be safe & operational then its got to be rectified & certified to a standard in accordance with the current regulations.

 

[Pete999]

An old saying I will always remember "If you can p--- you can paint"

I know that's a fact cus I made a right mess of our Kitchen before I had my Prostate Op.

 

[Intoelectrics]

Duplicate post!

 

[John Preston]

did he tie his horse up outside

Erm... don't bring the horse into it!

 

[Intoelectrics]

Erm... don't bring the horse into it!

Whats with the long face?

 

[Spoon]

Please gentlemen.... this type of joviality is only allowed on Fridays... We can't be happy too much....

 

[telectrix]

why not?

 

[davesparks]

An old saying I will always remember "If you can p--- you can paint"

And if you can urinate you can decorate.

 

[45140]

I am sorry and I do not wish to seem argumentative but again I must take issue with some points in your response.

Actually .....you've mostly written the same advice differently expecting a different outcome..

Not correct. Your advice is not correct and mine is materially different in certain areas.

His LLs electrician has disconnected the installation and condemned it, so it is not me advising the OP to claim the cowboy is incompetence the OP has received professional advice stating it as fact, hence why i suggested attaching the LLs assessment..

In your earlier post you reply state "..Contractually, and very begrudgingly, I'd offer him the opportunity to hire someone competent to do the work stating in the letter your belief he is not competent, attach your list of faults from your LLs assessor."
I don't believe the landlord has ever stated in writing that the installer was incompetent, (and I would lay £1 to a penny that neither the landlord nor anyone inspecting that installation will state in writing that the installer was incompetent), yet you have told the OP to make that allegation. The competence of the installer is for now a matter for conjecture, until he has been demonstrably proven to be incompetent by a person whose judgement would be acceptable to a Court. However what should not be pursued are allegations of competence. The facts of the quality of the work speak for themselves. Let others form their own judgements as to whether poor installation quality also demonstrates incompetence.

Actually you don't, you've mostly written the same advice differently expecting a different outcome..

No I have not, I have given sound advice based on my training and experience as a Contracts Manager with legal training. This is materially different to yours in a number of areas.

Sadly you wont see a penny back from him...

...in your opinion, we'll see though.

Yes we will, as you have pre-judged the decision of the Court, and your comment has already caused the OP to doubt the wisdom of proceeding

In my opinion, without a written contract or other sound proof a contract has been entered into and between whom then there is precious little for MCOL to settle.

Yet you also state "......Contractually, and very begrudgingly...."
Contracts do not have to be in writing to be legally enforceable, with one important exception: a contract for the sale (or other disposition) of land or property must be in writing and contain all the terms agreed, otherwise it is not enforceable. How often do YOU insist on a proper written and signed Contract before undertaking work ?

 

[GBDamo]

I am sorry and I do not wish to seem argumentative but again I must take issue with some points in your response.

Not correct. Your advice is not correct and mine is materially different in certain areas.
In your earlier post you reply state "..Contractually, and very begrudgingly, I'd offer him the opportunity to hire someone competent to do the work stating in the letter your belief he is not competent, attach your list of faults from your LLs assessor."
I don't believe the landlord has ever stated in writing that the installer was incompetent, (and I would lay £1 to a penny that neither the landlord nor anyone inspecting that installation will state in writing that the installer was incompetent), yet you have told the OP to make that allegation. The competence of the installer is for now a matter for conjecture, until he has been demonstrably proven to be incompetent by a person whose judgement would be acceptable to a Court. However what should not be pursued are allegations of competence. The facts of the quality of the work speak for themselves. Let others form their own judgements as to whether poor installation quality also demonstrates incompetence.
No I have not, I have given sound advice based on my training and experience as a Contracts Manager with legal training. This is materially different to yours in a number of areas.

Yes we will, as you have pre-judged the decision of the Court, and your comment has already caused the OP to doubt the wisdom of proceeding
Yet you also state "......Contractually, and very begrudgingly...."
Contracts do not have to be in writing to be legally enforceable, with one important exception: a contract for the sale (or other disposition) of land or property must be in writing and contain all the terms agreed, otherwise it is not enforceable. How often do YOU insist on a proper written and signed Contract before undertaking work ?

Firstly, please don't selectively quote what I have written to prove your point.

I know a contract can be written, oral or implied hence;-

In my opinion, without a written contract or other sound proof a contract has been entered into and between whom then there is precious little for MCOL to settle.

The issue the OP has is;-

He has entered into a contract with the installer, however agreed.

The installer completed his work but has had his work condemned by a third party, one who was not part of the initial contract.

This third party has deprived the OP of goods or services he paid for.

This has been done by the third party disconnecting the installation.

So who is claiming off of whom and for what?

Does the Tenancy Agreement, a contract entered into between the Tenant and the Landlord, have supremacy over the contract entered into between the Tenant and the Installer?

Does the contract entered into between the Tenant and Landlord allow for the actions taken by the Landlord or his Agent?

If not the OP is claiming off his Landlord

Does the Landlord or his Agent have sufficient expertise to deprive the Tenant of his paid for gods or services? Reasonableness test.

If not the OP is claiming off his Landlord however, this becomes a very messy argument.

Assuming the Landlord has all his ducks in a row and has the contractual right and the expertise, to deprive the OP of his goods or services, another question arises.

Who owns this installation?

Is it the landlord?

Is it the Tenant?

Is it the installer?

This brings us back to the Tenancy Agreement (TA).

If the TA stipulates that all alterations or additions to the fabric of the building become the property of the Landlord, which seems to be implied by the Landlord or his Agents actions, then the OP, although having paid for the work, does not have ownership and therefore has no case in court.

So the OP needs to determine if he has ownership.

If he does, then the LL had no right to deprive him of his goods or services.

He should serve the LL

If he doesn't he has no case.


And, as you rightly point out I an no lawyer yet can see the mess this is.

This is by no means clear cut. I am not prejudging the outcome, unlike yourself, but highlighting the complexity of it.

If you think I am making it unnecessarily complex just think what a real lawyer will do with it.

 

[45140]

GB Damo
I note your response and the underlying tone, and the fact you have clearly been busy Googling, albeit extracting and quoting a whole series of points which are completely irrelevant to the matter in hand, and only contribute to muddying the water.
I have passed comment in this thread based on my work experience as a former Contract Manager, with legal training in that area, and with experience of managing major Contracts, and contractual disputes, including those which resulted in Court Actions. I also have experience of recoveries through the small claims Court and on-line claims process.
You state your occupation to be a domestic installer in your profile, so I take this to be your area of expertise. Whilst you may have some knowledge/experience of Contract Law, you gave some very poor advice in an earlier post that, in my opinion, would have damaged the OPs chances of recovery and indeed would potentially have left them exposed to a claim for defamation. I find that element very telling in respect of your exposure to legal claims work.

In the circumstances I cannot see how any continuing debate with you will add value, and for the benefit of all I suggest we consider the exchange between us closed.

 

[GBDamo]

GB Damo
I note your response and the underlying tone, and the fact you have clearly been busy Googling, albeit extracting and quoting a whole series of points which are completely irrelevant to the matter in hand, and only contribute to muddying the water.

Ok, my tone is a little wanting mea culpa, got my "some bloke on the internet says i'm wrong" head on.

However I do think you have misrepresented what I have said and formed a argument around that misrepresentation, not intentionally but through
misunderstanding.

I'm flattered you think I've been Googling but all I contributed here is from personal experience with Employment Tribunals and various Magistrates Court appearances, seven in total, all wins and all self represented, or representing others.

In a previous life I was trained in Employment Law and learnt a few valuable lessons being taken to the cleaners on behalf of my employer. Every time was procedure and, what you call muddying the waters, is what wins cases.

I have passed comment in this thread based on my work experience as a former Contract Manager, with legal training in that area, and with experience of managing major Contracts, and contractual disputes, including those which resulted in Court Actions. I also have experience of recoveries through the small claims Court and on-line claims process.

I don't doubt any of the above for a minute.

You state your occupation to be a domestic installer in your profile, so I take this to be your area of expertise. Whilst you may have some knowledge/experience of Contract Law,

My current occupation is a little misleading I'll admit.

you gave some very poor advice in an earlier post that, in my opinion, would have damaged the OPs chances of recovery and indeed would potentially have left them exposed to a claim for defamation. I find that element very telling in respect of your exposure to legal claims work.

This is the crux, this is where I think we differ,

Contractually, and very begrudgingly, I'd offer him the opportunity to hire someone competent to do the work stating in the letter your belief he is not competent, attach your list of faults from your LLs assessor."[\quote]

To break it down;-

The OP has to allow the installer the opportunity to make good, without doing so he cannot bring a case before MCOL.

The OP is also contractually obliged by his Tenancy Agreement to his landlord to make sure the works are done to the Landlord or his agents standard.

As the assessment of the works required is already in writing it should be appended to the letter to the initial installer.

The "your" in bold above I think is the contentious bit and should be "your Landlords"

In the circumstances I cannot see how any continuing debate with you will add value, and for the benefit of all I suggest we consider the exchange between us closed.

Fair play, have a goob bank holiday weekend.

 

[freddo]

I'm impressed that the 20A DP switch hasn't melted yet. I hope there isn't 2.5mm from there back to the CU!

 

[45140]

GB Damo
OK thank you for the courteous reply. Lets leave the water behind the bridge.

To explain my reasoning on the competence issue.

If I were the OP I would want to go for the simplest solution through the small claims court with the most basic of claim details, e.g. "I am owed for what needed to be paid to make the work good". I still believe that approach will slide through as there is a high chance that matey boy will do what most do, which is to ignore the various letters, and ultimately the Court papers. Job then is a good one, case in OP favour all to do then is pass to the High Court for enforcement as they will seize goods to the value of, and recover the High Court charge.

If matey boy does seek legal advice I am sure he will be told to offer to come to an arrangement and settle as a first step.

If however we throw in an accusation of incompetence, in my opinion that is likely to do two things. In the Court it will raise a number of questions that the OP really does not want asked because in effect he has engaged what can only be described as a handyman to undertake work that has very serious safety implications. That will not play well with a judge, who could go down the Caveat Emptor route if he is having a bad day.

Matey boy may well also take exception and decide to fight, and were he to do this then it is likely that he may turn it back onto the OP, e.g. "...no I was not competent which is why I got someone in to test, but OP knew that because he wanted a cheap job and therefore should share a portion of the cost for using a non-trained person...... I did my best but I am not an electrician...did not know about the trunking....", etc, etc. The other issue is that Matey Boy could whizz down the DI route, and then say well here is proof I to demonstrate I am competent I have done this sort of work for years and my here is my DI Certificate. Due to family, etc, worries I was obviously having a bad day, etc, etc, ........ and by the way Mr OP my solicitor will be in touch regarding defamatory posts on a website forum. The OP in any case would never be able to get anyone from the landlord's side to put anything in writing to say matey boy is incompetent - they would be bloody fools to do so - leaving OP to explain the basis on which HE is competent to judge competence and good night Vienna all that needs to be done is to decide the number of zeros on matey boys cheque.

I think you appreciate where I am coming from here, now.

Respect to you for having fought employment cases, far too many awful employers out there these days giving two fingers to the law and treating workers like pooh.

Have a good remaining Easter, hope the weather keeps up.