To remainers and leavers alike please read for an interesting take on the matter

[The Ghost]

refugee crisis down to the West’s destabilisation of that area. Nothing to do with EU

Have you heard of quotas? If so how can you say Nothing to do with EU. It is the EU orchestrating a demographic change. Have you heard of No Go zones? Have you looked at crime figures throughout the west for the previous twenty (say) years? And if so I would love to hear how you come to the idea of us stupid people being manipulated by fear by the political class (read, more intelligent than us?) I for one am not manipulated by any person in this land. I dare say there are many many like me who are actually more intelligent than you would give us credit for and as fearless as a Lion to boot.

 

[The Ghost]

The advantage of exiting the EU (wwwww!) is that we reclaim our sovereignty and no longer are ruled by some remote unknown shadowy entity. I am not against a common market but I am against governance which is tyranny.

 

[SparkyChick]

For example - Islamaphobia bought on by Middle East crisis bought on by refugee crisis down to the West’s destabilisation of that area. Nothing to do with EU.

The sad thing is, I don't feel able to argue this as to do so puts me at risk of being branded a racist hate monger by the thought police.

Suffice to say, if you believe fearing it makes someone irrational (a phobia is after all an irrational fear), then it is my opinion you don't know enough about it.

 

[FatAlan]

The advantage of exiting the EU (wwwww!) is that we reclaim our sovereignty and no longer are ruled by some remote unknown shadowy entity. I am not against a common market but I am against governance which is tyranny.

Ok, how are they ruling us? What EU laws have been passed against our will?

 

[FatAlan]

Let us rephrase the question; What evidence is there we are a democracy? Do the elected listen and act in accord with the electorate? Do your local council do what you want? Does your MP or local councillor respond to the majority will? My experience is no. For instance a majority voted to leave. In a democratic system that would have been the end of the matter. However it is not is it.
To look at your question, puppet state a meme that does not really capture the state of things. Does the state act independently of the judiciary? Does the judiciary act independently from the state? Have we ceded powers to a foreign entity? I think no, no and yes. We now have an unelected bureaucracy dictating laws and the make up of our country without reference to the sovereign people. We the electorate says what does go on and what does not. But apparently not. Our government is on its' knees to a foreign power begging to be let out of class and like a worm on a hook. Why do not the government just say ta-da pal and get about the business we elected them for which is to leave?

So what would be wrong with a second vote on the issue now that people have had a chance to make a more informed decision?

 

[Baddegg]

How are people now more informed Alan? Are you suggesting the politicians and media are now all of a sudden telling the truth?
Surely if we keep voting on the same thing we are into the realms of Irish politics, for instance when they decided to use the euro.....after 3 votes! The eu got there in the end didn’t they....

 

[mattg4321]

We haven't left yet so how can we be more informed than before?

Maybe another vote in a decade or so.

The votes been and gone. Decided. Finished. We leave, end of story. If not expect massive consequences for the political establishment.

 

[telectrix]

Ok, how are they ruling us? What EU laws have been passed against our will?

1. vehicle emission laws
2. cornish pasties must be made in Cornwall. Cheddar cheese must be made in Cheddar. ( think this one got binned as it was too stupid even for MEPs.)
3. sneaky introducing kilometres instead of miles ( check the blue info. numbers on motorways, exactly 1/2 kilometre apart.
4. piling up perishable foodstuffs till it goes bad, just to keep the price up for inefficient froggie farmers.
5. eu court of human rights mean criminals have more rights than victims.

and cop this little lot. now who says we should remain?????
10 EU laws, rules or directives that could be scrapped after Brexit | Metro News - https://metro.co.uk/2017/03/29/10-eu-laws-that-could-get-scrapped-after-brexit-6541477/

 

[The Ghost]

Ok, how are they ruling us? What EU laws have been passed against our will?

I don't know if you are being devils advocate or really don't understand. You ask what laws. That is nowhere near the point of what has changed legally. This is a legally constitutional matter. Sovereignty has been ceded to foreign powers which is in itself a heinous criminal and political offence. It is treason. This was a criminal offence punishable by hanging by the neck until dead. More and more of the sovereignty has been usurped and traitorously ceded by the people in parliament who have a duty to act lawfully. We are in the position of having an unelected plutocracy ruling all of Europe. From The Reichsbank and Germany and France principally. I would say if you think that is ok go abroad to europe and live there. If you like living in a totalitarian state go live in europe. This is dictatorship undoing the sacrifice of millions to ensure we live in a democracy. So what a waste of life for those people to now see all signs of democracy gone or at least fast going.
All government institutions are no longer crown appointed they are corporations, the police, the courts even the government. They are subservient to Junk and Merkel and latterly now Macron they say jump our elected say how high sir! Can you not see constitutionally this is a massive betrayal of the electorate?
How about thought police, hate speech, selective culling of conservative sites on social media, gender agenda of various levels of deviance. The list could go on, this is what your children have to live with now, is that acceptable to you?

 

[The Ghost]

So what would be wrong with a second vote on the issue now that people have had a chance to make a more informed decision?

What would be wrong with that is the fact that in a democracy when we vote and the ayes have it that is final.
What will you do next, we vote for Mr or Mrs X for prime minister Mr X gets voted in, you want another election? No it does not not not work like that we all abide by the majority vote and get on with it. It is not up for dissection, insulting, patronising and so on the majority vote that is how it works! You lose a game of chess you lost get over it. Bow to the will of the majority.

 

[The Ghost]

Economics rules everything, except maybe the heart. There is no one so stupid who will turn around and say "look I could do a million dollar deal with you but you left the EU so I am not going to" Once an offer is on the table brexit or no brexit they will tear your hand off either side of the channel to get that business. Use common sense!

 

[telectrix]

and for my last post #58, i forgot to mention fishing rights in our territorial waters. after brexit, maybe our fishing industry will come back when the french and spanish have to go back and fish in their own bloody water. rule brittania

 

[FatAlan]

What would be wrong with that is the fact that in a democracy when we vote and the ayes have it that is final.
What will you do next, we vote for Mr or Mrs X for prime minister Mr X gets voted in, you want another election? No it does not not not work like that we all abide by the majority vote and get on with it. It is not up for dissection, insulting, patronising and so on the majority vote that is how it works! You lose a game of chess you lost get over it. Bow to the will of the majority.

As someone that voted to leave based on an under informed opinion (years bent banana and pasty stories) and not really being fully aware of the current relationship with the EU and the serious implications I’d like another vote please. Is that not democratic? Funny also how the first vote was actually only an advisory vote and has been proved in the high court that if carried out under electoral commission rules would be shown as corrupt! Unfortunately they can’t do anything about it as it was unofficial and the government has ploughed on regardless.

 

[Baddegg]

Admire your honesty there Alan, can I ask what has changed your mind specifically?

 

[FatAlan]

I’d been swept along with the fears on Islamaphobia linked in with the Syrian refugee crisis and the concerns over immigration. Funny how most of the Islamic nutters are home grown and have been groomed by our own home grown extremists facilitated by our own social media platforms which are not taking responsibility for policing their content. Under EU rules we do have more control over immigration than we choose to enforce.
Years of peace in Northern Ireland is at risk. We still sit outside the Euro which is good and overal any negotiated deal that we get with the EU post Brexit will mean that to get any good trade deals we will have to comply with EU rules anyway without any say in how they are made. I just can’t see any advantages.

 

[Jim_e_Jib]

I for one am not manipulated by any person in this land. I dare say there are many many like me who are actually more intelligent than you would give us credit for and as fearless as a Lion to boot.

Whether we like it or not, we are all manipulated on a daily basis. Sometimes we are aware as it happens, other times with hindsight but often we are blissfully unaware. This is not related to our intelligence but more often the skill of the people manipulating us and our own predictable human traits.

Those adverts on the television we think are rubbish, aren't rubbish, they're just not aimed at us. The ones we think are clever, funny or relatable, probably are aimed at us and I am certain that we've all been persuaded to buy something because of an advert whether we realise or not.

Politics is no different and there are those of us who will be influenced one way or another by what is essentially clever, or even underhand, marketing from all areas of the political spectrum and in this case both the leave and remain campaigns. For people who had an opinion on what they thought was right beforehand (whichever way that opinion fell) and remain unchanged in that opinion, this 'marketing' will likely have served not to change their minds or opinions but to re-enforce their belief that they are right.

 

[FatAlan]

and for my last post #58, i forgot to mention fishing rights in our territorial waters. after brexit, maybe our fishing industry will come back when the french and spanish have to go back and fish in their own bloody water. rule brittania

Problem Tel is that our fishing industry sells the vast majority of its catch to Europe and I only have fish and chips about once a month We’ve actually sold some of our fishing rights to foreign fleets and the current U.K. industry is less than the turn over of Harrods.

 

[FatAlan]

Economics rules everything, except maybe the heart. There is no one so stupid who will turn around and say "look I could do a million dollar deal with you but you left the EU so I am not going to" Once an offer is on the table brexit or no brexit they will tear your hand off either side of the channel to get that business. Use common sense!

I hope you’re right Vortigen but isn’t that’s what is happening now and by leaving we are just going to add an unnecessary layer of bureaucracy to over complicate matters?

 

[FatAlan]

Whether we like it or not, we are all manipulated on a daily basis. Sometimes we are aware as it happens, other times with hindsight but often we are blissfully unaware. This is not related to our intelligence but more often the skill of the people manipulating us and our own predictable human traits.

Those adverts on the television we think are rubbish, aren't rubbish, they're just not aimed at us. The ones we think are clever, funny or relatable, probably are aimed at us and I am certain that we've all been persuaded to buy something because of an advert whether we realise or not.

Politics is no different and there are those of us who will be influenced one way or another by what is essentially clever, or even underhand, marketing from all areas of the political spectrum and in this case both the leave and remain campaigns. For people who had an opinion on what they thought was right beforehand (whichever way that opinion fell) and remain unchanged in that opinion, this 'marketing' will likely have served not to change their minds or opinions but to re-enforce their belief that they are right.

You are spot on there. After working for several years dealing with people who have lost hundreds or thousands to investment fraud it was interesting that quite a large number refused to believe that they had been conned.

 

[Baddegg]

Just a side note it Abbot has out done herself today! Apparently it’s the British governments fault that Shamima Begum baby died!! Nothing to do with being born in a refugee camp in a country it’s mother chose to live in! The death of any baby is tragic but to use that as political point scoring is an absolute disgrace!

 

[The Ghost]

we are all manipulated on a daily basis.

adverts on the television

leave and remain campaigns.

Maybe and @FatAlan has admitted to that very thing and I suppose by implication you accept you are. I will concede that to a degree in certain matters maybe, just maybe I may be at times. You talk of adverts and leave remain. I was responding to @FatAlan and the chatterati (read politicians) calling us too stupid. In any event the matter for me has nothing to do with leave or remain I never voted ever for Brexit or any councillor or MP. I do not want a ruling class that I have to vote for, I vote for no man. Constitutionally just for the record I am a free man born upon this land and subservient to no man nor answerable to them. I posit that each of you are as well. The fact manipulation has allowed a vast percentage to accept the status quo and let other men rule them I cannot answer for. I agree I am in thrall to the powers that be because I do not have an army to enforce my will as they did. Not that I want one by the way.
But sorry my point is that brexit or not, deal or no deal is all a massive great red herring to entertain the people while demographic changes are taking place that are seismic in their import. But nobody notices those who do are sent to prison. Now that is manipulation. The only point I see about our relations with europe are the constitutional matters I have alluded to. As to the common market Teddy boy promised us to vote for, where is it? We were lied to. I don't mind a common market free trade both ways bring it on. The problem is they never did it was a ruse to allow ceding of sovereignty to foreign powers while we watched their hands and wondered at the sleight of them alas to late.

 

[The Ghost]

I often think of the people who write in to East Enders and Coronation Street to tell so and so character that her husband is cheating on her. Or the guys who beat up one of the actors portraying a gay person as they did not like gays. Or the guys who bombed and shot anyone one with the name El Nino when the great wave El Nino destroyed coastal cities. We have to remember that there are people like that!

 

[snowhead]

We have to remember that there are people like that!

Not forgetting "Free the Weatherfield one" campaign.
Even Politicians got caught up in that.

p.s. some people may need to Google that.

 

[The Ghost]

@FatAlan what is funny? If I may be so bold to ask mmmm.

 

[FatAlan]

@FatAlan what is funny? If I may be so bold to ask mmmm.

I just respect your right as a free man not to vote. Funnily enough I do tend to agree that we are in a time of seismic change and very open manipulation by those in control of the main media outlets etc.

 

[The Ghost]

Free the Weatherfield one

Indeed and of course who can forget the Renault 5

 

[The Ghost]

Final word:If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal - Emma Goldman.

 

[Baddegg]

If voting changes anything they wouldn’t let you do it..
Mark twain

 

[FatAlan]

I think I have broken my dumb record for one thread I think I might have upset Jacob Rees-Mogg's campaign manager in Somerset.

 

[Baddegg]

I think I have broken my dumb record for one thread I think I might have upset Jacob Rees-Mogg's campaign manager in Somerset.

Ha ha I’d take solace in the fact it had nothing to do with electrics Alan!

 

[Silly Sausage]

If voting changes anything they wouldn’t let you do it..
Mark twain

It'll all be over in 19 days time.


HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

This sheet festival is going to run for years.
Half the people on here will be dead and gone before it finally gets resolved.

 

[chrisstocks]

I think I have broken my dumb record for one thread I think I might have upset Jacob Rees-Mogg's campaign manager in Somerset.

Shame there isn't a symbol for idiot.

 

[Kamikaze]

I voted “Remain“, not for political reasons but because my mum’s moved to Spain and I want her to stay there.

 

[FatAlan]

Shame there isn't a symbol for idiot.

In respect of Rees-Mogg?

 

[chrisstocks]

In respect of Rees-Mogg?

In respect of Rees-Mogg?

Not a fan of Ray alan's dummy or any of the alternatives on offer today, in my time tripe hounds were locked in the site box at lunch time.