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If you're a qualified, trainee, or retired electrician - Which country is it that your work will be / is / was aimed at?
United Kingdom
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Electrical Engineer (Qualified)
My company have fully signed a test certificate in my name on a job that I have not been to, worked on or tested.

The work was done by a 4th year apprentice and tested by him as well. The test certificate was also filled incorrectly.

Is this illegal? And what would you guys do about this?

Cheers
 
I'd speak to them about it. Why have they signed it in your name?
 
I'd speak to them about it. Why have they signed it in your name?
I’m the only qualified electrician in the company and the only one with test and inspect.

Definitely going to speak to them about! But would this be illegal? Technically the job not been checked by a qualified persons
 
I would definitely be speaking to your company, that really isn't on!
Make all correspondence via email so you have a record of your concerns and the answers given, that way you have a paper trail to follow.
If anything happens your name is on that cert as the QS!
 
They forged your signature?

That’s fraud.


all they need to do is put you on the job and get you to test what the 4th year has done. If it’s ok, then sign it yourself.
Otherwise put your foot down. They can’t continue operating if you’re the only one that can test.
 
Thank you, would you say
I would definitely be speaking to your company, that really isn't on!
Make all correspondence via email so you have a record of your concerns and the answers given, that way you have a paper trail to follow.
If anything happens your name is on that cert as the QS!
thank you,
Would you say this illegal? Is anything is wrong I’m done for
 
They forged your signature?

That’s fraud.


all they need to do is put you on the job and get you to test what the 4th year has done. If it’s ok, then sign it yourself.
Otherwise put your foot down. They can’t continue operating if you’re the only one that can test.
We use the niceic online cert, you upload your details to it and just click the person that done the work and it fills it out and puts your signature on it as well
 
What is the point of a personal signature being able to be inserted by anyone?
Kind of defeats the purpose doesn’t it?

You must start a discussion with the company saying you’re not happy.
If something does go wrong on this job, you can show evidence that you knew this was wrong and tried to address it.

How good is this 4th year apprentice? I’ve known some that still couldn’t work out simple 2 way lighting.
 
Would you say this illegal? Is anything is wrong I’m done for
I am no solicitor but if they are signing in your name without you inspecting then it is fraud.

You definitely have to raise this with them and keep your own trail of correspondence just in case. That means something like your own email account (not a company one that can be deleted "by accident").

Having someone else do the work and a qualified person check and verify testing is fine, but forging your approval is very VERY dodgy.
 
What is the point of a personal signature being able to be inserted by anyone?
Kind of defeats the purpose doesn’t it?

You must start a discussion with the company saying you’re not happy.
If something does go wrong on this job, you can show evidence that you knew this was wrong and tried to address it.

How good is this 4th year apprentice? I’ve known some that still couldn’t work out simple 2 way lighting.
Yeah it’s not very fail safe as anyone can fill out the certs

As for the 4th year, I got a phone call while they was working on this job saying him and the plumbers are getting electric shocks from everything they touch, told them to check the houses earthing a bonding and they found the bonding was disconnected, apparently this fixed the issue
 
Sadly I would refer to the fatal accident inquiry that was reported on the IET forum a while back. Here are a copy of the details and why you need to be careful:

"The case relates to the Death of 22 year old Emma Shaw who was the occupant with her 18 child month of a rented 1st floor flat in West Bromwich in December 2007.

The flat was one of new 42 flats that had electrical installation carried out by Anchor Building and Electrical services an NICEIC Approved Contractor in 2006.

The internal walls were constructed of "C" section metal studwork covered with plasterboard. A hall cupboard contained a pressurised water boiler above which was mounted a consumer unit supplied from a distribution circuit from a switch fuse in a an riser cupboard external to the flat. The means of earthing was TN-C-S. None of the circuits in the consumer unit were RCD protected. Circuit No. 3 supplied one of the immersion heaters in the boiler.

The electrical installation had been 1st fixed the plaster board fitted to the metal studding before the installation was 2nd fixed. Circuit 3 supplied a 20A double pole switch at high level which supplied a cable outlet at low level, this in turn supplied the water heater in flex.

The cable to the flex outlet was longer than it should be and when the plasterboard was installed the cable was trapped between the plasterboard and the stud-work. In addition a plasterboard screw passed through the cable clipping the Line and CPC conductors and in to the studwork.

The installation had been energised without any testing and the fault current had blown away part of the screw and CPC. This was verified by forensic examination at the HSE laboratories. This left a high resistance fault from the line conductor to the metal studwork.

18 months later the stat. on the water heater failed and the cylinder over pressurised and the safety valve operated and the safety valve operated and discharged in to a tun dish. The plastic waste pipe from the tun dish had parted because it was not glued and the water spilled on to the floor soaking the carpet. The water soaked under the foot of the wall and in to contact with the live studwork.

Miss Shaw was mopping up the water and had texted her partner to come home telling him the hall was flooded and the "electricity was sparking". he partner texted back to say to turn off the water stop cock sited in the same cupboard as the boiler.

Later she was found kneeling in the cupboard slumped forward and apparently lifeless. Subsequent examination and a Post Mortum determined that she was kneeling in the charged water and received a fatal shock when she touched the earthed stop valve.

West Midlands Police, the ambulance service and the fire service attended the scene. The police commenced an investigation for a suspicious death.

The police later arrested both the QS Hoult and Tomkins the electricians mate and they were interviewed under caution. Tomkins had signed an Electrical Installation Certificate as the Inspector. He admitted he was not qualified or competent to do so. He said he had been taken to the flat by the electrical site foreman and told to do ring continuity and loop impedance testing.He said when he got to the flat the installation was already energised. He did no other inspection and testing. He said that in the site hut they had sat around the table with the site foreman and was told the other tests had been done and he was told what to write on the test certificate.

This EIC was submitted to Anchors offices where a type written certificate was produced. The type written version had differences to Tomkins hand written version. The typed version had "P/P C Tomkins" in the single signature box for design. construction and inspection. Tomkins said in court he had not seen the typed form and he would not have consented to his signature being used. Mr Hoult the QS said that he just checked the figures on the form and signed it as the QS. he did not go to site and was not involved in the testing and inspection. Mr Hoult had known Tomkins for many years and it was alleged he knew about Tomkins status as a mate and his lack of qualifications. "
 
I am no solicitor but if they are signing in your name without you inspecting then it is fraud.

You definitely have to raise this with them and keep your own trail of correspondence just in case. That means something like your own email account (not a company one that can be deleted "by accident").

Having someone else do the work and a qualified person check and verify testing is fine, but forging your approval is very VERY dodgy.
Thank you, didn’t think about using my personal!!

Yes would be happy to go back to the property even tho it’s 5 hours away 👀 and test the place then pass it if correct
 
How good is this 4th year apprentice? I’ve known some that still couldn’t work out simple 2 way lighting.
Sadly I've know far too many qualified and respected sparks who struggle with this if it isn't exactly as the standard.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: nicebutdim
Yeah it’s not very fail safe as anyone can fill out the certs

As for the 4th year, I got a phone call while they was working on this job saying him and the plumbers are getting electric shocks from everything they touch, told them to check the houses earthing a bonding and they found the bonding was disconnected, apparently this fixed the issue
So you have made over the phone dignostics and that allowed the apprentice to fix the fault and this written trail comfirms you took responsibility for him/her for that repair?
 
Sadly I would refer to the fatal accident inquiry that was reported on the IET forum a while back. Here are a copy of the details and why you need to be careful:

"The case relates to the Death of 22 year old Emma Shaw who was the occupant with her 18 child month of a rented 1st floor flat in West Bromwich in December 2007.

The flat was one of new 42 flats that had electrical installation carried out by Anchor Building and Electrical services an NICEIC Approved Contractor in 2006.

The internal walls were constructed of "C" section metal studwork covered with plasterboard. A hall cupboard contained a pressurised water boiler above which was mounted a consumer unit supplied from a distribution circuit from a switch fuse in a an riser cupboard external to the flat. The means of earthing was TN-C-S. None of the circuits in the consumer unit were RCD protected. Circuit No. 3 supplied one of the immersion heaters in the boiler.

The electrical installation had been 1st fixed the plaster board fitted to the metal studding before the installation was 2nd fixed. Circuit 3 supplied a 20A double pole switch at high level which supplied a cable outlet at low level, this in turn supplied the water heater in flex.

The cable to the flex outlet was longer than it should be and when the plasterboard was installed the cable was trapped between the plasterboard and the stud-work. In addition a plasterboard screw passed through the cable clipping the Line and CPC conductors and in to the studwork.

The installation had been energised without any testing and the fault current had blown away part of the screw and CPC. This was verified by forensic examination at the HSE laboratories. This left a high resistance fault from the line conductor to the metal studwork.

18 months later the stat. on the water heater failed and the cylinder over pressurised and the safety valve operated and the safety valve operated and discharged in to a tun dish. The plastic waste pipe from the tun dish had parted because it was not glued and the water spilled on to the floor soaking the carpet. The water soaked under the foot of the wall and in to contact with the live studwork.

Miss Shaw was mopping up the water and had texted her partner to come home telling him the hall was flooded and the "electricity was sparking". he partner texted back to say to turn off the water stop cock sited in the same cupboard as the boiler.

Later she was found kneeling in the cupboard slumped forward and apparently lifeless. Subsequent examination and a Post Mortum determined that she was kneeling in the charged water and received a fatal shock when she touched the earthed stop valve.

West Midlands Police, the ambulance service and the fire service attended the scene. The police commenced an investigation for a suspicious death.

The police later arrested both the QS Hoult and Tomkins the electricians mate and they were interviewed under caution. Tomkins had signed an Electrical Installation Certificate as the Inspector. He admitted he was not qualified or competent to do so. He said he had been taken to the flat by the electrical site foreman and told to do ring continuity and loop impedance testing.He said when he got to the flat the installation was already energised. He did no other inspection and testing. He said that in the site hut they had sat around the table with the site foreman and was told the other tests had been done and he was told what to write on the test certificate.

This EIC was submitted to Anchors offices where a type written certificate was produced. The type written version had differences to Tomkins hand written version. The typed version had "P/P C Tomkins" in the single signature box for design. construction and inspection. Tomkins said in court he had not seen the typed form and he would not have consented to his signature being used. Mr Hoult the QS said that he just checked the figures on the form and signed it as the QS. he did not go to site and was not involved in the testing and inspection. Mr Hoult had known Tomkins for many years and it was alleged he knew about Tomkins status as a mate and his lack of qualifications. "
Why did he not tell her to turn off the C/B first ????
 
So you have made over the phone dignostics and that allowed the apprentice to fix the fault and this written trail comfirms you took responsibility for him/her for that repair?
They couldn’t understand why they was getting electric shocks from “everything they touched” I simply asked the question of have you looked at the property’s earthing. The answer was no and I never heard from them after this point, spoke to the a few days later and got told bonding was missing they connected it and fixed it apparently. And now the jobs signed off in my name and I’ve never been there or checked it.
 
I would go feckin mental at them
I’m not best pleased, gunna give them a chance to remove the certificate or let me go test the property myself or I’m guessing I will have to get the niceic involved
 
Sadly I've know far too many qualified and respected sparks who struggle with this if it isn't exactly as the standard.

One of the best sparks I've ever met can only conceive of 2 way switching wired in a particular manner.
 
Doesn't seem right to me that they are signing your name on a job cert that A you never completed and B you never even worked on the job site

Can you imagine if 6 months down the line someone got a shock and died at the job and the paper trail leads back to the signature on the the cert and you end up in jail for a job you never even did
 

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If you're a qualified, trainee, or retired electrician - Which country is it that your work will be / is / was aimed at?
United Kingdom
What type of forum member are you?
Electrical Engineer (Qualified)

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HELP my company has signed off work I haven’t done in my name
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