OP
Outspoken
Frequency chap...HV and HF....BAD combination as the heart basically explodes in the chest cavity..
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So as soon I was finally handed my indentures the door was closed to further training was it?
I don’t think so, the learning had only just begun.
I find it both ironic and morbidly comic that a thread which started off by the NICEIC/ECA proudly announcing their intention for electrical marriage has ended in a discussion of the most effective way to kill people with it.
Truth is stranger than fiction and you draw your own conclusions!
Maybe because from day one of this thread, it was clear that these two scheme providers that were proudly ringing the all saints bells of electrical safety, was a complete farce!! When they will eagerly sign up 17 day whizz kids and electrical trainee into their organisations and officially registering them to unsuspecting customers and the general public alike, as being competent. There is always going to be double standards at play with these organisations, where money is the main driving force!! lol!!
A spot on over view of one of the main things affecting the trade.Totally agree, but the starting points then and now are very different, and so is the work. Electrician as a job exists in very few places now. There is very little requirement for an all rounder capable of working on HV/industrial installation, the local chippy's frier, or Mrs Jones hall light. As the jobs description and type of work has become more specialised/restricted so has the training.
I have for instance quite recently worked with two lads who are both time served (apprenticed) electricians in their mid/late 20s. All they had done since then were new build installs. They were very quick, did a tidy job and new their stuff regarding the regs. Neither of them had used an MFT for years, they'd never worked on any three phase stuff and (like most) had a healthy fear/respect for anything involving kv but had never worked with it.
So their 2330 City & Guilds which you pointed out is a lesser qualification to the older 236# is in fact far more than they need to carry out their jobs. Likewise it would be overhorsed for a lot of roles within the industry as it currently is.
Totally agree, but the starting points then and now are very different, and so is the work. Electrician as a job exists in very few places now. There is very little requirement for an all rounder capable of working on HV/industrial installation, the local chippy's frier, or Mrs Jones hall light. As the jobs description and type of work has become more specialised/restricted so has the training.
I have for instance quite recently worked with two lads who are both time served (apprenticed) electricians in their mid/late 20s. All they had done since then were new build installs. They were very quick, did a tidy job and new their stuff regarding the regs. Neither of them had used an MFT for years, they'd never worked on any three phase stuff and (like most) had a healthy fear/respect for anything involving kv but had never worked with it.
So their 2330 City & Guilds which you pointed out is a lesser qualification to the older 236# is in fact far more than they need to carry out their jobs. Likewise it would be overhorsed for a lot of roles within the industry as it currently is.
No it's not!! both 2360 and 2330 are CORE qualifications that ''Every'' electrician should have before calling themselves electricians.
To be frank, your arguments are just about as daft as going back to college, to gain what amounts to a lower standard of the qualification you already held!! And that, just about sums up your points and arguments !!
Outspoken, I do understand, and agree completely that the short courses aren't going to give the training that a '70s/'80s full aprenticeship would.
The thing is, it's not the '70s or '80s, and the type of electrician required then is (sadly I agree) no longer, or only in rare instances, required. The cutting down to areas or specialising has allowed similar cutting down in both pay and training required. The electrical trade is one of the few which covered such a wide range of subject areas that it could be broken down.
I'm sort of in agreement with everyone on this which is awkward - the merits of having 'full' (whatever that is) training to probably go on to work in only a few areas -v- starting out that way to start with and specialising (and I use the term loosely!) in the training.
Here's a thought for us all, though: I'm going to use Tony as an example, and only as an example, not because I'm in anyway trying to take a swing at him.......as I understand it his electrical background (which is significant and to be respected) pretty much centred from the earliest days as an apprentice in heavy industry. How much of his training was spent doing 'light' and buildings related installs, rewiring the burnt-out pub, running in new office lights, ripping up Mrs Jones' floorboards..etc? Because that's almost entirely what mine consisted of - and I couldn't even have told you where the nearest big factory was, let alone a foundry or similar. But both of us spent our time in the classroom, learning the same theories, doing the same maths, wondering who on earth would ever actually need to calculate flux losses in the real world (or whatever was the stupid lesson of the day).
So you've two apprentice trained, experienced sparks (albeit Tony has a few more years on me) with completely different backgrounds and skill-sets. Both equally fulfil the 'time served -v- Electrical Trainee' debate, yet we might just as well be from different planets. And I'd quite like to live on his.
(Tony - hope you know me well enough to get the sense of what I mean!)
Ah your a proper spark then :biggrin5:I’ll tell everyone I’m no bloody good at domestic!
Rock, I don’t mind that at all.
I’ll tell everyone I’m no bloody good at domestic!
I used to get bored!
Make your mind up!
Either the 2330 is a lesser qualification and a waste of my time, or its a core requirement for every electrician.
To be honest I can't be bothered arguing anymore. If anyone has the temerity to take a different view to your own you throw all your toys out of the pram. If they still don't back down you start contradicting yourself in an attempt to prove a point.
Things have moved on, many of us don't think it's for the better or like the changes. Some accept that progress isn't allways good and get on with it. Some moan their faces off on a forum and try to belittle anyone who takes a different view or route to theirs. So you carry on moaning and tilting at windmills, I'll carry on earning a living, and so will the evil training providers and dodgy 5 week wonders.
I'll bet that while all that is going on there won't be a sudden increase in electrocutions, the job of an electrician will continue to have several definitions, society will not come to an end, and the majority of people will carry on with their lives.
I'm sort of in agreement with everyone on this which is awkward - the merits of having 'full' (whatever that is) training to probably go on to work in only a few areas -v- starting out that way to start with and specialising (and I use the term loosely!) in the training.
Here's a thought for us all, though: I'm going to use Tony as an example, and only as an example, not because I'm in anyway trying to take a swing at him.......as I understand it his electrical background (which is significant and to be respected) pretty much centred from the earliest days as an apprentice in heavy industry. How much of his training was spent doing 'light' and buildings related installs, rewiring the burnt-out pub, running in new office lights, ripping up Mrs Jones' floorboards..etc? Because that's almost entirely what mine consisted of - and I couldn't even have told you where the nearest big factory was, let alone a foundry or similar. But both of us spent our time in the classroom, learning the same theories, doing the same maths, wondering who on earth would ever actually need to calculate flux losses in the real world (or whatever was the stupid lesson of the day).
So you've two apprentice trained, experienced sparks (albeit Tony has a few more years on me) with completely different backgrounds and skill-sets. Both equally fulfil the 'time served -v- Electrical Trainee' debate, yet we might just as well be from different planets. And I'd quite like to live on his.
(Tony - hope you know me well enough to get the sense of what I mean!)
The difference being, that he could and did turn his hand to Domestic work, a domestic electrician (which it seems, all we are churning out of our colleges now) would have a hard time turning they're hand too heavy industrial work etc!! Changing times should mean that today's college students should be getting ''Better'' training than the likes of Tony and Myself, not limited, or inferior training...
OK, that's a fine principal, but my point earlier is that his apprenticeship didn't cover the 'cannon fodder' kind of stuff, mine didn't cover heavy industrial but both were equally valid in their own merits. And to play devils advocate, given my other earlier remark, I've not been in a plant environment, none that I know of exist around my area....so had I have been taught those skills back then, by now they would be rusty at best and I'd be a danger trying to use them, therefore what's the point in 'knowing' them?
Its a funny old world this sparky stuff, I served my time in the shipyards, Swan Hunters back in the day,working on merchant and MOD ships, attention to details was a must. As an apprentice we got bounced around 4 yards and worked on different ships. We had to do plant maintenance, fixing the cranes, welding sets,generators, undercutting motors etc. They had there own instrument tech, and we had to work with him and calibrate meters and other equipment. At college we covered domestic aswell as the marine modules.
We had the influx of miners, who our shop stewards got them into the union (eetpu) at the time. This was my first eye opener, They came with there card NUM, it covered everyone, from faceworkers to templights etc. Then some of these said they were electricians through the NUM, and now got full electrician status through the shop stewards,this was a complete slap in the face for lots of sparks at the time.What could you do or say, it was my own union moving the goal posts.
At this point i realised that becoming an electrician, was going to become easier over the years, and any loopholes, through training providers, colleges,employers would be exploited. It is now down to 5 weeks in essence now.
This being said and done, I had a well rounded 4 yr apprenticeship, and would do well on other work like domestics. Redundancies start I move on.
I couldnt get a fix straight away, as a lot of sites wouldnt take yard workers, they thought they were crap, and couldnt wire a plug. I got a fix on a site, and applied for a JIB card, took 3 yrs before they granted me my approved. Then I see an old school mate, who was a posty, done 2 yrs city and guilds courses, got his brother in law who was the contracts manager and he got a JIB card, and was deemed a electrician.
So from early 80s, and had seen two ways of people getting electrician status. Other than doing an apprenticeship and getting there indentures.
These fast track ways have always been there in one shape or another, its just now its more openly promoted, and is backed by governing bodies. As Craftsmen/tradesmen/technicians/engineers. We have only our selves to blame. It is us that have lowered the bar, it is us who have let them get away with it.
I used to be quite proud of calling my self a time served electrician, now that does not seem to matter anymore.
Im sure there is some relevance in my post somewhere.
I have had a recent conversation regarding this from a very very reliable source. Just to really pee you off, to get onto this register you will need as a minimum to have served a recognised apprenticeship, hold the latest 17th edition qualification, hold both C&G 2394 and 2395 or equivalent, hold 2391 but have a plan in place to get 2394 and 2395. The industry is out to kill the cowboys, but how many good sparks with grandfather rights will be killed in the process?
Cheers.............Howard
I have had a recent conversation regarding this from a very very reliable source. Just to really pee you off, to get onto this register you will need as a minimum to have served a recognised apprenticeship, hold the latest 17th edition qualification, hold both C&G 2394 and 2395 or equivalent, hold 2391 but have a plan in place to get 2394 and 2395. The industry is out to kill the cowboys, but how many good sparks with grandfather rights will be killed in the process?
Cheers.............Howard
So who is going to run this utopian scheme?
Don’t get me wrong Howard it would be a good move, but only if divorced from the existing schemes and the JIB.
As I see it only government intervention could get this implemented. As I said earlier, it would need a charter to give it teeth.
I have had a recent conversation regarding this from a very very reliable source. Just to really pee you off, to get onto this register you will need as a minimum to have served a recognised apprenticeship, hold the latest 17th edition qualification, hold both C&G 2394 and 2395 or equivalent, hold 2391 but have a plan in place to get 2394 and 2395. The industry is out to kill the cowboys, but how many good sparks with grandfather rights will be killed in the process?
Cheers.............Howard
I haven't read this whole thread, yet, so apologies in advance ...... To nail my colours to the mast ..... I'm possibly what many on here would term a Electrical Trainee (except that my course was spread out over 24 months of home study with training/assessment weeks rather than as an intensive course - That's by the by though, I think). I'm what I'd describe as a reasonably intelligent 50 year old, who spent most of my life in IT. Way back when, I was taken out of school as a 15 year old by my Dad and started work as an apprentice fitter - I lasted 18 months - I hated it and, if I'm honest, I was crap, so I quit and went back to school. BUT in my time in this firm .... I very much understood the value of apprenticeships, the honesty of work, the respect for those who know more than you do (they're not ALWAYS older by the way!) and the value and importance of turning out the highest quality work you can to the best of your ability............You know reading these posts it looks like Electrical Trainee v Timed Served but that's not how I see it looks to me the problem is the ever growing monster that basically must be fed and it does not care where it gets its money from and yes I mean the Schemies who in my view have saturated and diluted the trade. Now I realise that apprenticeships are no longer going about and there are guys wanting to enter the trade as mature trainers fine but the current environment where people have no hope with regards to jobs are saying thats it I am going to change my life and all the schemes are bothered about is selling them courses and registering them.
Now that premise sounds ok but the problem we have is the title electrician so in my view the Scheme system can be good as say a modern apprenticeship system were an Individual does 6 months training and then are grade as Domestic electricians with supervision from the Scheme.
Personally I don't feel there's an issue with people doing short "fast track" courses that are limited in scope - as long as the people taking them know their own limitations and these limitations are known to the public.
The problem is that in many, many cases, the Electrical Trainee as they "like" to be called here will take a short course, pass the required exams and will do jobs they are not prepared for - dangerously.
Poor old competent spark (whether they are timed served or not) gets undercut and poor old Joe Public gets a false sense of security on a dangerous install.
If you don't have an issue, you dam well should!! And if for nothing else for the very reasons you give in your post!!
Limited scope is what the plumbers and kitchen fitters have, NOT the 17 day/Electrical Trainee fast track guys. They can undertake any domestic work they choose!! ...And that only relates to Domestic, so these wannabees can undertake any commercial and or industrial work they want to, as they don't have any restrictions in these areas, except for the word ''Competent''!! Far too many actually think they are fully qualified, and as such competent too. You get these guy's coming on here stating that they will only take on work within their limitations, ...personally i don't believe a word of it!!
The public have no idea who they are employing, as these scheme providers tar all it's registered members with the same make believe title of ''Domestic Installer''. I believe the public has been taken for as much of a ride, as the trained electricians have, with this Part Pee crap and the rise of the training centres that basically serve to boost the revenue of the scheme providers....
No we have to put an end to these fast track training centres, and as soon as feasibly possible too!!
What should the public look out for or ask when they are looking for a person to do some work on their house? I dont fully know...
While you're on the subject on training & education in Britain, check this out...
BBC News - Heavy metal degree is a 'waste of time' claim campaigners !
I mean, come on, the whole thing is becoming a total farce!!!
Thanks for the reply Eng54 but it was a genuine question.
So people. What do you think the general public should look out for and ask when wanting an electrician?
There is not much point in us saying that the public dont know what to do if we are not going to teach them.
I know, and so was my reply.
Other than asking the electrician straight out and hoping for an honest answer, not much else, as far as i can see. You could i suppose ask to see his qualifications and note the numbers and the dates, but i'm not sure how many electricians would wear that!! lol!!
As i say the public have been sold a pup, as much as the qualified electrician has by the scheme providers, and their laughing all the way to the bank!!
I guarantee you, 100%, that if a job is outside my comfortable ability to understand, action and test, I won't take it on.If you don't have an issue, you dam well should!! And if for nothing else for the very reasons you give in your post!!
Limited scope is what the plumbers and kitchen fitters have, NOT the 17 day/Electrical Trainee fast track guys. They can undertake any domestic work they choose!! ...And that only relates to Domestic, so these wannabees can undertake any commercial and or industrial work they want to, as they don't have any restrictions in these areas, except for the word ''Competent''!! Far too many actually think they are fully qualified, and as such competent too. You get these guy's coming on here stating that they will only take on work within their limitations, ...personally i don't believe a word of it!!
The public have no idea who they are employing, as these scheme providers tar all it's registered members with the same make believe title of ''Domestic Installer''. I believe the public has been taken for as much of a ride, as the trained electricians have, with this Part Pee crap and the rise of the training centres that basically serve to boost the revenue of the scheme providers....
No we have to put an end to these fast track training centres, and as soon as feasibly possible too!!
I guarantee you, 100%, that if a job is outside my comfortable ability to understand, action and test, I won't take it on.
I applaud you if you stick to that resolution.
I’d be happier if you were legally bound to it.
There are far too many that think they can tackle the world, they need legally restraining!
I applaud you if you stick to that resolution.
I’d be happier if you were legally bound to it.
There are far too many that think they can tackle the world, they need legally restraining!
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