Should Scottish Government delay new smoke detector law

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Should this be delayed?

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baldelectrician

baldelectrician

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Was contacted by a local paper last week and asked about the Scottish Government smoke alarm requirements coming in on February.

Was mentioned in an article (and even had my good looks used to enhance sales 😃 ), although they spelled my name wrong (Stewart McLintock)

See below

sunday mail scan 01.jpg
 
While I think that proper alarms are a good thing and should eventually be a regulation, this move has been poorly thought through and no provision I know of to support those unable to afford a professional system but unable to manage a DIY.

The weaselly worded cost estimate (based on cheaper alarms and DIY install) is misleading the public about its impact, as is the gov claims it won't be enforced, etc, but maybe insurance will start using it to deny payments, etc. Also the claims it is base on / to avoid another Grenfell Tower tragedy, even though that class of building and the serious aspect of inflammable cladding (still a WTF? for building standards) is utterly different to the vast majority of properties this applies to.

TL;DR Not thought through, should have been based on some aspect where it is managed as part of larger work anyway for non-rental property (e.g. on property sale or rewire job so managed over many years until feasible to force remainder to be upgraded)
 
Last edited:
pc1966 said:
While I think that proper alarms are a good thing and should eventually be a regulation, this move has been poorly thought through and no provision I know of to support those unable to afford a professional system but unable to manage a DIY.

The weaselly worded cost estimate (based on cheaper alarms and DIY install) is misleading the public about its impact, as is the gov claims it won't be enforced, etc, but maybe insurance will start using it to deny payments, etc. Also the claims it is base on / to avoid another Grenfell Tower tragedy, even though that class of building and the serious aspect of inflammable cladding (still a WTF? for building standards) is utterly different to the vast majority of properties this applies to.

TL;DR Not thought through, should have been based on some aspect where it is managed as part of larger work anyway for non-rental property (e.g. on property sale or rewire job so managed over many years until feasible to force remainder to be upgraded)
Click to expand...
The Scottish Building Standards have banned the cladding used in Grenfel for dwellings above 2 floors (unless that cladding is encased in 75mm of concrete), this was changed in 2007 - well before the disaster
 
I can’t see why people say there wasn’t enough advertising about the new legislation.
I’ve seen tv adverts, newspaper, website ads, and AICO sent every home in Scotland a flyer, twice I think.

The only thing I would have an issue with is having to replace alarms that are still in date. You could have one with the replaceable battery, that’s only 3 to 4 year old. It’s powered, the occupants are sensible enough to replace the battery when needed and they’re interlinked.

Never come across it… most of the ones I change are hitting 20 or more years.
 
For me there are a number of aspects, some I agree with and some I do not.

In terms of timescale, we the public have known about this since a few days following Grenfell , the Scottish government made a big deal about enacting legislation making smoke detection in all properties immediately after the fire. This is close to 5 years ago now.
So have the public had sufficient notice - absolutely!! (Do the public realise the sound-bites made by their politicians actually may impact them - certainly not!)

As for cost and impact - total lies by the government who want to make the sound-bite but not suffer the consequence - it isn't even realistic; in practice the vast majority of poorer homes will have old gas or coal fires extracting via old chimneys - so a CO in both downstairs rooms plus the bedrooms above plus the smokes etc so not only are the quantities totally wrong, the actual individual cost is unrealistic as few would be able to do it correctly.

And as for enforcement, why introduce a law that you intend to ignore??
Are we the public to decide which laws are real, and which are pretend - you know those laws just to enable sound-bites??

Locally we have 20mph limits introduced - are these to be ignored as well?

If any law is introduced
1) costs should be supported for the needy
2) it should be fully enforced
3) if the above 2 requirements are not met, it shouldn't be introduced as it isn't intended for the right reasons, but for political gain.

Unfortunately the law was introduced, solely for the sound-bite
 
Julie. said:
And as for enforcement, why introduce a law that you intend to ignore??
Are we the public to decide which laws are real, and which are pretend - you know those laws just to enable sound-bites??
Click to expand...
The apparent lack of public engagement might well be down to this. Why take any notice of a law the government itself says it won't enforce?

One aspect that bothers me is the sound-bite "we must be seeing to do something" aspect of such a move.

The other is the worrying aspect of such non-enforced laws that they will only be enforce when it suits someone to prosecute for other reasons, which could well be political or petty personal grievances with a councillor, etc.
 
We had the 20mph introduced in Scottish Borders a year ago…
“Every town, village and built up area”

Took the council weeks to change the signage from 30 to 20, and 40 to 30 in some places.

Then, 6 months later… they decided some small places didn’t deserve the 20, and reverted them back to 30…. Using brand new signs!
Where was all the old ones?


Famous people on the forum?
That’s Baldy and Lucian both had coverage…

Although I have been in my local for fitting a defribulater for nowt… just don’t talk about it.
 
littlespark said:
We had the 20mph introduced in Scottish Borders a year ago…
“Every town, village and built up area”

Took the council weeks to change the signage from 30 to 20, and 40 to 30 in some places.

Then, 6 months later… they decided some small places didn’t deserve the 20, and reverted them back to 30…. Using brand new signs!
Where was all the old ones?
Click to expand...
The old ones are still up in some places near us.

Approach a road from one direction and it's a 30, Approach from almost all other directions and it's 20!

Then the side roads still have the reduction to 20 from this main (now already 20) road!

It's no wonder people get frustrated, so many miss the 20 sign, then all the indications are it's a 30 as standard and get annoyed at people "only doing 20 in a 30"
 
Interesting to see this thread raising some valuable points.
I won't repeat what has been said before, but i can confirm that I have received multiple requests for quotes to do installations to the new Scottish regs and the last 3 have all been driven by the clients concern over possible problems with insurance claims...rather than just keeping them safe.

My 2 most recent are in flats nearby, which are either 2 or 3 bed, and basically all these flats need the same minimum of a heat and 2 smokes, there being no gas installed and no other fuel-burning appliance. Of course, when installed, the 3 detectors are within 3 metres of each other, and in some cases you can actually see them all!

The residents are all reasonably well-to-do and savvy, and while a raised eyebrow is usual, the basic cost of £255 for Aico units is not an issue. This excludes fitting and commissioning and issuing a certificate, obviously. It's above the much touted figure the Scottish Government have postulated, and the latest 3 bed house i quoted for is coming in at £400 to match the minimum standard. I suggested extras, which I personally would have, but to no avail.

As word spreads throughout this local flatted development I am expecting many more enquiries, and of course they will all expect the same cost.

Thus, I learn now that my usual supplier, Safelincs, now offer these:

www.safelincs.co.uk

Radio-Interlinked Sealed Battery 3 Smoke Alarms and 1 Heat Alarm Kit - Hispec RF Pro Range - £114.62 inc VAT

Buy the radio interlinked sealed battery 3 smoke alarms and 1 heat alarm kit from the Hispec RF Pro Range. 5 year warranty and express delivery.
www.safelincs.co.uk www.safelincs.co.uk

Anyone used them?
I have painted myself into a corner with Aico, as these HiSpec are much cheaper.
If I spec these cheaper ones, my previous clients might be a tad miffed...

On the other hand, I've never had a call back to an Aico unit. Thus, just wondering if any of you have any experience of the HiSpec units. I see availability is far from instant.

My gut reaction is to continue to spec Aico, but give the client the option to choose the cheaper units, and I'll fit them as usual.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
 
I’ve seen those hispec, and I tell customers they are new to market, I don’t have any idea on how reliable they are.

Aico have been around for years, and many of the ones I’m upgrading are already Aico.
And I’m listed as an Aico installer…. So I won’t be changing.

Have already been turned down a couple of times as being too expensive.
 
Thanks @littlespark

I too am listed as an Aico installer, and I too have been turned down as too expensive...but, know what? I'm ok with that...

A 5 year guarantee is only as good as the company behind it...

I'm discussing fitting the HiSpec ones with a friend, and we might go with them to see how they are, but he is a fully clued-up guy and that makes all the difference!


I'll report back...
 
pirate said:
The residents are all reasonably well-to-do and savvy, and while a raised eyebrow is usual, the basic cost of £255 for Aico units is not an issue. This excludes fitting and commissioning and issuing a certificate, obviously. It's above the much touted figure the Scottish Government have postulated, and the latest 3 bed house i quoted for is coming in at £400 to match the minimum standard. I suggested extras, which I personally would have, but to no avail.
Click to expand...
In many ways this is my biggest point of contention, that the gov has lied about the real-world cost of having it done by quoting a DIY price based on the (then) cheaper models like FireAngle.

I can think of a few folk personally who are struggling with fuel price increases and would be lucky to have a spare £50 let alone a few hundred.

Now I want to make it clear I think your £400 is quite reasonable for a professional install, and I am lucky (as probably most of the working folk on this forum are) that I can afford it. But it does ---- me off that this is being imposed on many poor folk by a party that claims to be up for helping those less well off.

pirate said:
www.safelincs.co.uk

Radio-Interlinked Sealed Battery 3 Smoke Alarms and 1 Heat Alarm Kit - Hispec RF Pro Range - £114.62 inc VAT

Buy the radio interlinked sealed battery 3 smoke alarms and 1 heat alarm kit from the Hispec RF Pro Range. 5 year warranty and express delivery.
www.safelincs.co.uk www.safelincs.co.uk

Anyone used them?
I have painted myself into a corner with Aico, as these HiSpec are much cheaper.
Click to expand...
I see "pre-order for 1 Feb" which is tight!

Having had poor results from FireAngel before I would be worried they are going to be cost-saving rubbish from China and have a high failure rate over a couple of years. Thankfully not in the business of installing them professionally so for family I'm going with Aico!

I would be genuinely interested in knowing how well they do.
 
I’d never heard of hispec until this legislation was announced…. In fact, I only recall seeing them the past 6 months or so…

My concern would be they are a flash-in-the-pan get rich quick company that will disappear into the distance after a year or two after the detectors start failing.

Cynical. I know
 
Must say I agree...no track record, so have to be wary. My friend knows this and is happy to be guinea-pig this time round...but I will let you know. Thank you all for your comments..as usual, such help is invaluable.
 
I've just got my third job taking out fire angel detectors and replacing with Aico after less than 2 years.

In fairness they are a fair bit cheaper and compliant but longevity does not seem to be their strong suit.
 
ferg said:
I've just got my third job taking out fire angel detectors and replacing with Aico after less than 2 years.

In fairness they are a fair bit cheaper and compliant but longevity does not seem to be their strong suit.
Click to expand...
In my case it was the "10 year" batteries failing after about 2 years.
 
Worth noting that in England,
if you ask the local fire brigade they will come and fit smoke detectors for free if you are unable to afford them.
 
James said:
Worth noting that in England,
if you ask the local fire brigade they will come and fit smoke detectors for free if you are unable to afford them.
Click to expand...
I think they used to do that in Scotland, at least for the odd battery one in the hall. Don't think they have the budget to do thousands of homes with £200-400 interlinked jobs according to new legislation!
 
One of my local competitors use Hi Spec.
They fitted their mains ones for years and they had a high failure rate. The Hi Spec mains ones sold for about £8

One wholesaler told me they had a 'graveyard' of Hi Spec fails. So bad they stopped getting them in for general sale.

I prefer Aico as they work and don't fail due to their own accord.
 
Mini update: My pal has ordered the HiSpec units, and I hope we will install them in a couple of weeks from now. He is savvy, and knows it's a leap of faith, but is keen to see how they fare...as am I.
I will report back...
 
Stand by for the mad rush... February is only a week away.

I ordered Aico detectors from CEF over the weekend.. Said everything was in stock.

Got there this morning, and the 3x 603 heat detectors that the website said were in stock had been sold. Either sold on saturday morning, and the website hadnt been updated, or they had been sold, before they would have been put aside for me...

Anyway... knackered my plans for this afternoon
 
littlespark said:
Got there this morning, and the 3x 603 heat detectors that the website said were in stock had been sold. Either sold on saturday morning, and the website hadnt been updated, or they had been sold, before they would have been put aside for me...
Click to expand...
I got one 603 from Holland-House early last week. The guy there said they were having issues getting stock in, something like 3 weeks before any more due.
 
littlespark said:
Stand by for the mad rush... February is only a week away.

I ordered Aico detectors from CEF over the weekend.. Said everything was in stock.

Got there this morning, and the 3x 603 heat detectors that the website said were in stock had been sold. Either sold on saturday morning, and the website hadnt been updated, or they had been sold, before they would have been put aside for me...

Anyway... knackered my plans for this afternoon
Click to expand...


Bit better than usual then. Was expecting to read 1/3 out of stock, 1/3 wrong and 1/3 delivered to the wrong site 😁
 
Follow up to my #35 post.

The 603’s CEF had sold even though they were for me… they managed to get some from another branch and I eventually got them on Wednesday.

I was on job 2 when I realised the dates on them were 2031!

CEF website now says available 7th February for any new stock. Even Screwfix is out of stock.
Assuming other wholesalers are same.
 
I ordered several Aico ones from Safelincs, they said 17 february...at checkout they said 1st April. Just had an email saying 17 feb again, except for the COs which is April.
I'm out of commission for 4 weeks anyway, but clients are waiting...
 
I got the last box or two from Elecric Center on Thursday.

I spent most of Thursday checking stock of CEF and Rexel brances and managed to call and persuade them to send me them up by courier.

I now have enough Aico smoke and heat to last me about a week and a half.
 
If anyone is interested I have the following:
1. One Ei3028 without radio link dated 2031
2. Two Ei3028's with radio links dated 2032
3. One Ei3024 with radio link dated2032
 
baldelectrician said:
just checked - not there ..............................
Click to expand...
That’s weird. This is what I see. Maybe it’s different depending on your location.

My local store also have 24 in stock, but I’m in the south east of England

Edit: just realised you’re after the battery 603’s. None showing for delivery and only 4 in stock at local branch here.

1F02A4D4-9265-4916-9350-DBF766AC9C39.png
 
Update.

City electrical are now showing stock on ei603rf and ei650rf heat and smoke detectors being available from 22nd february... It was 12th Feb.
Everyone else is in the same boat regarding stock levels.
Even seen stupid prices on ebay for them... £140 for one!!!, and no guarantee of full 10 years date on them.
 
Update

Important FYI!!

In at CEF the other day and they said they were not sure of the 22nd feb delivery date for the Ei603rf heat detectors… could be 26th now… so I’ve got a van full of battery smokes, but no heats. No point doing half a job and go back just for the heats…

This morning, I was in at Screwfix.. asked the manager there if the “24-48 hour” delivery was right on the EI603rf…. Yes, he said. Should come tomorrow, maybe Sunday. Def Monday.

Ok… best price? Considering they sell them at £84.99…. He knocked enough off each one to a quid less than what city charged me. !

So I got 10 coming for next week.



I’ll wait until I’ve got the 10 and will keep the ones from CEF when I eventually get them.


So, if you’re still waiting for stock, try your local Screwfix, and plead, beg and grovel to get the price.
 
littlespark said:
So, if you’re still waiting for stock, try your local Screwfix, and plead, beg and grovel to get the price.
Click to expand...
I know they have a trade counter for electricians and pumbers but we never bothered with applying, presumably you have that hence the better deal? Might actually be worth it for some cases!
 
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