Advice On Rewire Of Lighting Circuit

[James]

Thought we should bring the temperature down a little

i was just beginning to have fun!

but you are right, i could do with a cold beer. time to put down the book of many words that can be interpreted in many ways.

p.s. gum round the top of the conduit may be acceptable if there are no applicable standards and it is agreed between specifier and installer by special agreement!!!

 

[littlespark]

Peppermint or fruity?

 

[Vortigern]

A well rounded and good argument you convinced me @James, thanks for the input it's certainly food for thought.

 

[Vortigern]

@Pete999, you pressed the more info at my comment re NICEIC. I was just observing you seem to have very high standards and it would make an assessment a ball breaking experience I think. Most men would be crying. But on the bright side at least you would only be certifying top men. Nothing sinister in it, was an attempt at humour.

 

[Vortigern]

Thought we should bring the temperature down a littl

A spirited debate does not mean a high termperature @happyhippydad I did hug a tree before my replies.

 

[SJD]

I realise it is somewhat late to be suggesting this, ... the problem as I understand it is the conduit is round is not going to take 2x 1.0mm2 flat T&E cables (assuming both switches just need 2 cores & earth).

So would using 4-core & earth round cable with solid cores have been acceptable, for example:
https://www.electricaldirect.co.uk/product/prysmian-4-core-and-earth-cable-15mmx100m-red-888110

Plus something to protect the sharp edge at the top of the conduit, e.g. I've used glue-lined heat shrink in the past, folded over and into the conduit (space permitting).

Obviously this cable would need splitting into the two circuits, e.g. at a Wago box somewhere.

 

[Vortigern]

It need five core and earth as it is a two way switch one of them. But yes I agree.

 

[telectrix]

A well rounded and good argument you convinced me @James, thanks for the input it's certainly food for thought.

pity the conduit was not as well rounded. ans as for chewing gum.... YUK. use blu-tac.

 

[James]

A well rounded and good argument you convinced me @James, thanks for the input it's certainly food for thought.

Thank you @Vortigern
I did flick through the book for points to raise, but not just stick a pin in a page and see what came up. Some thought went into the process!!

As you say, it is all food for thought.

 

[Micktw68]

Pete999
Very poor workmanship striping all the mech protection off of the twin cable is very poor the inner cores of the twin, and earth are not designed to be used this way, not a very knowledgeable Electrician, nor is it compliant with the Regulations ( BS7671) PS Did you receive any certification from this so called Electrician? an EIC,
Its not my house Pete. I was commenting on the install.

 

[Master Mech]

Well I did not expect this to create so much debate so thanks to everyone for taking the time to contribute, it really is greatly appreciated.

So am I right in saying that we are all in agreement now that the unsheathed twin & earth cores fed down a metal conduit that is unearthed is not acceptable?

Seems that the junction boxes are not great but not dangerous either? A couple a Wago boxes relevant for the connector type used would solve that problem?

Here is a picture of behind one of the light switches that is fed by the cable drop that has the three core with a twin & earth cable fed down it.

You can see the three core cable going through the rear of the back box to the two gang light switch on the other side of the wall.

 

[Midwest]

Seems a bit busy for a 1 gang 1 way switch. What does the other switch do? Sure he’s not earthed the back box, and so the split conduit (if the correct fittings have been used)?

 

[Master Mech]

Seems a bit busy for a 1 gang 1 way switch. What does the other switch do? Sure he’s not earthed the back box, and so the split conduit (if the correct fittings have been used)?

The switch on the other side of the wall is a two gang switch controlling a pedant & some downlights hence it being two gang.

Because the wires running down the wall are unsheathed he has joined the wires inside the back box & then ran a sheathed piece of three core cable out the back of pictured back box to the other one on the other side of the wall.

The split conduit stops in the wall & does not attach to the back box.

From what I have been told:

The old split tube conduit was never intended to act as a CPC and was never connected back to the MET. In addition, the joints were not of a type where continuity could be ensured.

No idea if this is correct.

 

[westward10]

Agree with @Midwest those back boxes do not appear to be earthed as the cpcs are connected into an isolated push fit connector. They definitely need to be earthed.

 

[Master Mech]

Seems the back box is earthed.

 

[Pete999]

Seems the back box is earthed.

Still a lash up though Nate, good morning

 

[westward10]

Seems the back box is earthed.

Fair enough didn't spot that.

 

[Master Mech]

I know it is really hard to tell off just pictures over the internet but do you still think it would be possible to get five 6181Y wires down that single run of conduit?

That is if it is acceptable to only run one earth wire down & split it between the back boxes?

I have never seen 6181Y in person so no idea how thick the insulation is.

 

[westward10]

I know it is really hard to tell off just pictures over the internet but do you still think it would be possible to get five 6181Y wires down that single run of conduit?

That is if it is acceptable to only run one earth wire down & split it between the back boxes?

I have never seen 6181Y in person so no idea how thick the insulation is.

Difficult to say as you mentioned some of the tubes are flattened. 1mm 6181Y is approximately 4mm diameter but one will have to incorporate a cpc so is slightly larger. As I said before you would have to try each tube before committing to this method.

 

[Master Mech]

Difficult to say as you mentioned some of the tubes are flattened. 1mm 6181Y is approximately 4mm diameter but one will have to incorporate a cpc so is slightly larger. As I said before you would have to try each tube before committing to this method.

Fair enough, at least I have this option open to me now as if you had not suggested it I would never even know this product existed so many thanks for that.

If it is feasible it will be much cheaper than Quinetic switches but again I have them to fall back on if all else fails.

I guess because 6181Y is double insulated it can just be ran to the junction box in the loft?

I can see 6181Y cable listed on the CEF website but cannot find one with a CPC attached, is a different model of cable?

Would it be acceptable to run just another 6181Y 1.0mm cable for the CPC & sleeve it with earth sleeving or is this a no go?

 

[westward10]

Sorry the one with a cpc is 6241Y.

 

[Midwest]

I don’t think replacing the unsheathed 6242y cables with 6181Y cables is a go’er, unless it’s for a single switch. The switch point you’ve posted is an example.

I think you need to raise your concerns with your electrician, to come up with an alternative plan, to the one you have initially agreed to. It might need a little bit of redecorating needs to happen. As to who will fund the alterations, is something you’ll have to discuss; but I think it might be primarily yourself.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Taking into account that the solution that was installed was agreed with the owner, if they do not like the result any alterations now will need to be paid for by the owner.

 

[westward10]

I disagree because it was not a solution, it did not work. He should have stopped and reviewed it with the client, not pressed on regardless.

 

[Mike Johnson]

I think that is where the problem lies with this discussion, that solution did work, we may not like it and it may not conform, but it did work.

 

[Master Mech]

Taking into account that the solution that was installed was agreed with the owner, if they do not like the result any alterations now will need to be paid for by the owner.

Whilst I can see where you are coming from he never asked me if this solution was acceptable to me.

I asked him at the time as I had concerns & he told me there was no issues with it & if he thought there was an issue I would expect him to not carry on with the work. I did not feel comfortable pressing the issue further at the time as I did not know how founded my concerns were.

Hence the reason I created this thread to find out if my concerns were founded. I now know there are issues with a work carried out so can with confidence raise them with the electrician.

Also nice to have options to discuss with him on how to resolve the issues that he himself may not be aware of.

 

[Intoelectrics]

Well he had a good think up in the loft & he came up with the solution we have now, the stripped cables.

I thought this was not "correct" so to speak but as I have said this is not my field so I had no way of knowing if this was acceptable or not so I was not in the position to make the call if there was a problem or not at the time.

Hence the creation of this thread, I am not trying to throw the guy under the bus I just wanted other peoples opinions on the work to see if my concerns had any merit.

Fair enough, I wasn't pointing a finger, but I'm sure you can appreciate that sometimes folk only give you half the story.

 

[Master Mech]

If the conduit is big enough would this cable be suitable to use?

https://www.screwfix.com/p/time-3185y-white-5-core-1mm-flexible-cable-5m-coil/68083

 

[Midwest]

I don’t see a problem with that, as long as it’s suitably sized; indeed I did suggest something similar earlier. The only issue I would have, is that this cable is connected to the fixed wiring with a suitable JB with suitable strain relief, and where it exits the split conduit, a suitable grommet is used.

BS7671 reg 521.9.1 (I think) mention use of flexible cable used in fixed wiring. Only caveat is using heavy duty flex. But in your case I can not see it be subject to any mechanical damage.

 

[Pete999]

I don’t see a problem with that, as long as it’s suitably sized; indeed I did suggest something similar earlier. The only issue I would have, is that this cable is connected to the fixed wiring with a suitable JB with suitable strain relief, and where it exits the split conduit, a suitable grommet is used.

BS7671 reg 521.9.1 (I think) mention use of flexible cable used in fixed wiring. Only caveat is using heavy duty flex. But in your case I can not see it be subject to any mechanical damage.

Good thought Mate, I think the answer is to string the So called Electrician up that Decided to strip the Mech Protection from the cables and thread them down a conduit,and chuck his tools away, do every one a favour and rid the world of these cowboys and stop them poncing on the unsuspecting general public, and hear was I thinking that only suspect car dealers were up to this malarkey.

 

[Master Mech]

So I am still waiting for the electrician to come back, I have heard from him & have not gotten a date from him on when he will return.

I do have another question regarding the grouping factor that will be applied to the three cables he has installed in the conduit. The cables/circuits & MCB's are as follows :

4mm2 T&E - 32 amp MCB

2.5mm2 T&E - 20 amp MCB

1.0mm2 T&E - 6 amp MCB

Am I correct in saying that because the conduit contains three circuits the grouping correction factor would be 0.70?

Then I am totally lost on how to apply this correction factor to these these circuits.

 

[Pete999]

Is this a continuous solid conduit system, or an oval conduit for burying in the wall the use of twin and earth suggests the later, can you confirm please?

 

[Mike Johnson]

That must be a very large conduit to accommodate those three cables and keep within the requirements of BS 7671 and not exceed 45% of the net cross-sectional area.

 

[Master Mech]

Is this a continuous solid conduit system, or an oval conduit for burying in the wall the use of twin and earth suggests the later, can you confirm please?

That must be a very large conduit to accommodate those three cables and keep within the requirements of BS 7671 and not exceed 45% of the net cross-sectional area.

He has used 25mm black conduit that is round, it is on the exterior wall of the house.

 

[Pete999]

He has used 25mm black conduit that is round, it is on the exterior wall of the house.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Ok I will bite, 25mm dia conduit has an internal area of 78.5mm sq, 4mm T&E has a nominal dia of 37mm sq so even without the 2.5 & 1 T&E the 45% space requirement is not maintained.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Sorry should have said "with the 2.5 and 1 the 45% space etc:

2.5mm T&E being 32mm sq and 1mm T&E being 24mm sq.

 

[Master Mech]

So in layman's terms there are to many cables for that size of conduit?

If the 4.0mm2 cable was removed would that compile with the regulations?

I presume this regulation is to prevent the cables from over heating?

 

[James]

So in layman's terms there are to many cables for that size of conduit?

If the 4.0mm2 cable was removed would that compile with the regulations?

I presume this regulation is to prevent the cables from over heating?

Also,to allow cables to be rawn in without damaging them

 

[Mike Johnson]

The cross section of T&E is a bit strange, as the cable is deemed to be the diameter of its major axis when in reality its anything but, so most electricians use a bit of common sense where this is concerned.