Fixed Appliance RCD Protection

[lozarus]

Afternoon - despite a recent 18th edition pass (all but one right!) I'm having a bit of a moment whilst planning some upcoming works at our site. In reality I should wait, go home, refer to the big book and go from there. But it's playing on my mind and I can be a bit impatient. Also, I guess there may be a bit of a conversation here about existing circuits?

Situation is as thus - need to provide a spur for sign installers to install a backlit sign - all 24v LED stuff - Class 2 transformer, connected to switched fused spur.

Unbelievably (but not altogether unexpectedly), when checking how the land lay, I found a live but unused spur floating around above the suspended ceiling - an old Ashley thing, complete with smashed backbox and a bit of tape on saying "Live" (this isn't unusual in an ex-public building that has had 60 years of various companies and sub-sub-subcontractors doing reactive 'maintenance' classed works with no real records left).

So, traced the FCU - fed in old colour FP200 from a mid 90's Federal board on its own B16 - old plans indicate it used to feed a former Fire Alarm system before it was decommissioned and replaced/relocated 20 years ago. No other appliances on circuit. Zs well within. IR not yet done.

So - do I need to protect any part of this circuit with an RCD? I deduce not, as its not a socket outlet upto 32a - its a fixed appliance. And the circuit itself already exists as installed.

My brain started going down this path because really, all I'm doing is connecting an appliance - the circuit itself is already in situ.

Appreciate there's options here and the obvious thing is to shove an RCD in- source an RCBO for the board; fit an RCD in a DIN enclosure; fit one of the much debated RCD spurs ....but does it really require one? (I can't really see the risk from the appliance perspective - it's more the fixed wiring - but as I say - that already exists).

Apologies for the musing of such a small thing - but just thought I'd throw it out there

 

[loz2754]

I see no particular reason for an RCD to be required in this situation.

 

[Pete999]

Afternoon - despite a recent 18th edition pass (all but one right!) I'm having a bit of a moment whilst planning some upcoming works at our site. In reality I should wait, go home, refer to the big book and go from there. But it's playing on my mind and I can be a bit impatient. Also, I guess there may be a bit of a conversation here about existing circuits?

Situation is as thus - need to provide a spur for sign installers to install a backlit sign - all 24v LED stuff - Class 2 transformer, connected to switched fused spur.

Unbelievably (but not altogether unexpectedly), when checking how the land lay, I found a live but unused spur floating around above the suspended ceiling - an old Ashley thing, complete with smashed backbox and a bit of tape on saying "Live" (this isn't unusual in an ex-public building that has had 60 years of various companies and sub-sub-subcontractors doing reactive 'maintenance' classed works with no real records left).

So, traced the FCU - fed in old colour FP200 from a mid 90's Federal board on its own B16 - old plans indicate it used to feed a former Fire Alarm system before it was decommissioned and replaced/relocated 20 years ago. No other appliances on circuit. Zs well within. IR not yet done.

So - do I need to protect any part of this circuit with an RCD? I deduce not, as its not a socket outlet upto 32a - its a fixed appliance. And the circuit itself already exists as installed.

My brain started going down this path because really, all I'm doing is connecting an appliance - the circuit itself is already in situ.

Appreciate there's options here and the obvious thing is to shove an RCD in- source an RCBO for the board; fit an RCD in a DIN enclosure; fit one of the much debated RCD spurs ....but does it really require one? (I can't really see the risk from the appliance perspective - it's more the fixed wiring - but as I say - that already exists).

Apologies for the musing of such a small thing - but just thought I'd throw it out there

After scrolling through all the answers, need to sort it yourself or get someone in who knows what they are doing, sort the situation out and make it safe, simple really if you are unsure get an expert t in PDQ.

 

[timhoward]

I think he knows what he is doing, and it probably is already safer as he's found the breaker.
My only thought is it would be good to improve on the "floating around on suspended ceiling".

 

[littlespark]

The instructions that come with the sign may include “must be connected to an RCD protected circuit”
If so, then the decision has been made for you.

 

[lozarus]

Sorry if I didn't make myself clear - I didn't mention anything about what I've done post finding this, as I felt the post made it incredibly obvious I'm actually qualified, competent and employed to do this job - as well as my previous contributions to the forum!

I mean if you get non-electrically competent people talking about Zs values and DIN enclosures then that's good stuff - but I thought it was clear im in the trade ?

I've obviously traced and isolated the circuit, I just didn't mention it as I assumed it was obvious I'm competent - I was just floating the idea about how I may go about reinstating it for an alternative use.

 

[lozarus]

The instructions that come with the sign may include “must be connected to an RCD protected circuit”
If so, then the decision has been made for you.

You make it sound so obvious !

 

[littlespark]

Unless the instructions are badly translated from Chinese, then it’s anyone’s guess

 

[ipf]

Presumably, it's not domestic and, as you say, it's not a socket outlet.....and I wouldn't think FP200 is in a wall less than 50mm, anyway.....is it?
From what you say, just replace the FCU and test.

 

[DefyG]

FP200 would have an earthed shielding too so RCD unnecessary unless as said installation instructions require one.

 

[lozarus]

Thanks all. Yes not domestic, FP200 above suspended ceiling. Will review instructions on arrival - it's a violently expensive thing made in England so fingers crossed with the instructions !

 

[loz2754]

FP200 would have an earthed shielding too so RCD unnecessary unless as said installation instructions require one.

Not so, see this post:
Post in thread 'Fire Alarm Circuit RCD Protection TT System' Fire Alarm Circuit RCD Protection TT System - https://www.electriciansforums.net/threads/fire-alarm-circuit-rcd-protection-tt-system.192171/post-1679373

 

[ipf]

FP200 would have an earthed shielding too so RCD unnecessary unless as said installation instructions require one.

Never heard that one. How do you earth that stuff?....except with a bear earth conductor maybe touching it.

 

[DefyG]

Prysmian cable spec - 'Features and Benefits' - 'Full size CPC in direct contact with screen'!

I wasn't suggesting using the screen as a cpc but know from its construction it will provide a pretty reliable earth path in event of a fault, and whilst it isn't specifically listed in 522.6.204(i), [The list isn't all inclusive], its use isn't prohibited and is compliant with 133.5.

 

[westward10]

FP200 Gold would require additional rcd protection in the eyes of BS7671.

 

[lozarus]

Not so, see this post:
Post in thread 'Fire Alarm Circuit RCD Protection TT System' Fire Alarm Circuit RCD Protection TT System - https://www.electriciansforums.net/threads/fire-alarm-circuit-rcd-protection-tt-system.192171/post-1679373

The shield has no connection at either end to earth so I'd always deduce it's not an earthed outer shield

 

[DefyG]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but the spec'n clearly says "In direct contact with the CPC".

Cant say I've tested every one but those cables I have tested have proved to be a reliable connection between the cpc and shield and in my opinion provide adequate protection for compliance to 522.6.204(i)

in the eyes of

Do the 'Eyes' have a reg No.?

 

[westward10]

It is not manufactured to any of the British Standards in the Regulation you have quoted.

 

[Rockingit]

I think he knows what he is doing, and it probably is already safer as he's found the breaker.
My only thought is it would be good to improve on the "floating around on suspended ceiling".

Ah. That time I was nearly killed, you mean? Shop refit, lifted a tile to chase a cable run, laying on top of the tile was the aluminium tumble dryer style hose of a cheap AC job from a nearby vent, rolling around and floppy like it does, it rolled into the curve of my neck/shoulder and bit. HARD, right on all the bits of you that really don't want a belt, on bare sweaty skin. Steps went from under me which interrupted the belt. Later investigation, some absolute ******* had in the past simply snipped a live cable and left it loose up there, the hose had rolled onto it.

 

[DefyG]

Thought the bit that said BS as in BS 7629-1 was British Standard and funnily enough it is listed and recognised on page 434 of the regs.

 

[westward10]

I can't see it on page 434 but that British Standard is the specification for fire resistant cables.

 

[ipf]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but the spec'n clearly says "In direct contact with the CPC".

Cant say I've tested every one but those cables I have tested have proved to be a reliable connection between the cpc and shield and in my opinion provide adequate protection for compliance to 522.6.204(i)


Do the 'Eyes' have a reg No.?

 

[Rockingit]

I can't see it on page 434 but that British Standard is the specification for fire resistant cables.

Isn't this all starting to lose the point? I think we've established that the circuit doesn't need an RCD unless the instructions ask for one??

 

[westward10]

Isn't this all starting to lose the point? I think we've established that the circuit doesn't need an RCD unless the instructions ask for one??

You know what we're like on here drifting off the point?

 

[Rockingit]

You know what we're like on here drifting off the point?

?