goasis

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Mar 8, 2015
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If you're a qualified, trainee, or retired electrician - Which country is it that your work will be / is / was aimed at?
United Kingdom
What type of forum member are you?
Practising Electrician (Qualified - Domestic or Commercial etc)
Hi, a customers earthing arrangement in TN-S. Main earthing conductor 6mm and clamped (loosely) onto outside of supply cable.
Having spoken to DNO regarding this they email me saying they will send someone to see if PME is available. The email states PME is the ONLY way they provide an earth connection to their network. If its not available it is up to the electrician to sort out.

DNO came out today. Tightened the clamp and changed to 16mm conductor. No PME label. So what am I left with? Its definitely a TN s cutout.

As an aside, the email had the interesting sentence "as the property owner, there are various types of earthing you can choose for you home"
 
DID YOU TAKE A PIC .
 

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now it is TN-S system .
 
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Its always was, have I misunderstood? TN-S and PME? ZE readings were all good (0.2 from memory)
maximum tn-s -0.8 tn-c-s -0.35 TT 0.21
 
 
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No guess work required for this one. It is as @buzzlightyear states TN-S.
 
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No guess work required for this one. It is as @buzzlightyear states TN-S.
Not doubting"buzzlightyear"s expert eye, but just wondered why an easier means of determining the current supply arrangement was, nt made available
 
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Not doubting"buzzlightyear"s expert eye, but just wondered why an easier means of determining the current supply arrangement was, nt made available
Yes agree. Sometimes a supply looks like it is pme as earth cable goes into the cut out, but sometimes it’s TN-S.

not all TN-S supplies are clamped onto the lead sheath.
 
Sorry, I wasn't doubting it was TN-S, just questioning why the DNO told me they only provide PME, but then came and changed the size of the earthing conductor on this supply.
 
Hi, a customers earthing arrangement in TN-S. Main earthing conductor 6mm and clamped (loosely) onto outside of supply cable.
Having spoken to DNO regarding this they email me saying they will send someone to see if PME is available. The email states PME is the ONLY way they provide an earth connection to their network. If its not available it is up to the electrician to sort out.

DNO came out today. Tightened the clamp and changed to 16mm conductor. No PME label. So what am I left with? Its definitely a TN s cutout.
They only provide PME.......but they repair/improve TNS.

Whichever's the easier, I suppose.
 
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Sorry, I wasn't doubting it was TN-S, just questioning why the DNO told me they only provide PME, but then came and changed the size of the earthing conductor on this supply.
No need to be sorry.

we where just having a debate within your thread regarding identifying earthing systems.
as for your original post. I agree it’s a bit strange that they said what they said considering they came out and contradicted this and actually sorted the TN-S loose clamp.

DNOs a law unto them selves.
 
Sorry, I wasn't doubting it was TN-S, just questioning why the DNO told me they only provide PME, but then came and changed the size of the earthing conductor on this supply
now doubting Thomas why did you not see if it was a TNCS obesely the earth would be tagged to the neutral.
 
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No need to be sorry.

we where just having a debate within your thread regarding identifying earthing systems.
as for your original post. I agree it’s a bit strange that they said what they said considering they came out and contradicted this and actually sorted the TN-S loose clamp.

DNOs a law unto them selves.
Thanks, I was questioning my understanding thats all. And I love the idea that homeowners can choose from a variety of earthing systems!!! (I suppose in theory you could 'choose' TT)
 
now doubting Thomas why did you not see if it was a TNCS obesely the earth would be tagged to the neutral.
Obviously, and it wasn't, which is why I said it was TN-S
 
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Thanks, I was questioning my understanding thats all. And I love the idea that homeowners can choose from a variety of earthing systems!!! (I suppose in theory you could 'choose' TT)
Actually I think in the present dropped neutral risks TT may be the safest in future.
 
i have recently tested a property and TNS TO PME just like that has tommy cooper says .
 
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Why is there appears to be no standard policy for DNO's when it comes to earthing.
The two DNO's local to me I'm sure would have replaced the clamp with a constant force spring and used a 16mm earth braid to the main earth terminal
 
Actually I think in the present dropped neutral risks TT may be the safest in future.

Indeed with TT you get rid of the PEN fault risk, but you put alot of reliance on RCDs which also fail (perhaps more offen than PEN faults happen but who knows)

Iv toyed with the idea of changing from PME to TT, as i live in a rural location with seperate overhead lines, so PEN fault risk might be more likely, although I have stayed with PME for now

If you chose TT and then have a heavy reliance on RCDs at least it is within your control (although good for an electrician, but not so much for your average person who I would imagine never even use the test buttons in there RCDs)
 
Indeed with TT you get rid of the PEN fault risk, but you put alot of reliance on RCDs which also fail (perhaps more offen than PEN faults happen but who knows)
It is an interesting question. Which fault occurs most? Would like to have the stats for that one. However, rather than choosing supply type based on "which is less dangerous", what about focusing on how the various supply types might be improved. For instance some European countries use a TT system where the fault loop impedence is low enough to disconnect the OCPD. Why not consider that option?. RCD failing sorted!!
Iv toyed with the idea of changing from PME to TT, as i live in a rural location with seperate overhead lines, so PEN fault risk might be more likely, although I have stayed with PME for now
Why have we not explored an open PEN sensor to operate over the complete electrical installation in the event of an open PEN FAULT?
 
It is an interesting question. Which fault occurs most? Would like to have the stats for that one. However, rather than choosing supply type based on "which is less dangerous", what about focusing on how the various supply types might be improved. For instance some European countries use a TT system where the fault loop impedence is low enough to disconnect the OCPD. Why not consider that option?. RCD failing sorted!!

Why have we not explored an open PEN sensor to operate over the complete electrical installation in the event of an open PEN FAULT?
Yes I would very much like to know how often PEN faults occur, not sure how to obtain that information although

I like your thinking of a good TT system with a very low impedance electrode

South Africa apparently use an RCD BUT before the point where the CPC for the installation is joined to the PEN, so if there is a PEN fault and current is returning via the CPC by a person or extraneous conductive part there will be an imbalance between the line and PEN and disconnection will occur. And in theory a line - earth fault when the PEN is intact should not trip the pen protection RCD as any current returning on the CPC will also go through the PEN, although if there is a line - earth fault but not via the CPC it would trip the whole installation.

Anyway doing this in the UK is prohibited.
(although stop me if I'm wrong but I think some EV chargers are using current clamps around the supply cable in this way, and effectively doing the same thing but only disconnecting the EV)

If you have access to all 3 phases, you can wire 3 resistors in a Y configuration between the phases to give you a virtual star point, then if the voltage is monitored between this virtual star point and the PEN and it goes above 50v then an MCB shunt could disconnect all line conductors and earth within the installation eliminating the risk (this is how the 3 phase version of the matt:e o-pen works I think). obviously, this can't be implemented for domestic at individual houses as most are only single phase but if devices like this were installed in the distribution network it could reduce PEN fault risks, but it would cost a fair bit and I would imagine the reduced copper cost is why we have PME in the first place so doubt the DNO would like to spend more. Also important to note that you must have all 3 phases for the virtual start point to work, but its easy enough to use a voltage sensing relay to disconnect should you lose just one phase etc

I have been thinking of another way to monitor for a PEN fault; would be to have a device performing a Ze or even a loop test between L - N very quickly (every 50ms or so) and if the impedance went up it would indicate a PEN fault, even if the PEN fault is on a balanced 3 phase system the device would then be measuring the impedance through the connected loads on the other phases and therefore there would normally be a higher impedance.
 
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If you're a qualified, trainee, or retired electrician - Which country is it that your work will be / is / was aimed at?
United Kingdom
What type of forum member are you?
Practising Electrician (Qualified - Domestic or Commercial etc)

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