Possible First Solo Big Job - Advice Needed

[SparkyChick]

Hi all,

I went to quote for some small changes this morning mainly lighting (removal of roses and replacement with wall lights, plus some additions and some socket moves). Sounded easy enough, but here's some background:-

• EICR done before the property was purchased, unsatisfactory - No CPCs on original lighting circuits (the one's I'd be working on), possible aluminium cable (although I'm not convinced - I think based on what I saw it's tinned copper imperial), no RCD protection on anything other than showers (40A MCB -> RCD -> One Shower and 40A MCB which supplies a second shower)
• Looks like some of the sockets being moved are spur off spur off spur (possibly with buried ring final connections or hidden JBs)
• No room in CU for RCDs (can't split load it) or RCBOs due to volume of wiring (several MCBs have multiple connections)
• No room around CU for replacement with bigger board due to electricity meter and gas meter locations
• Householder has expressed the view they won't be moving again

Before I even start looking at the lighting changes and socket moves, I need to address the lack of CPCs in the two affected lighting circuits and lack of RCD protection (because I'll be burying cables in walls less than 50mm deep and carrying out major changes to the circuits that supply the sockets so I need to add RCD to comply). The bulk of the existing CU seems to be taken up with lighting, so I'm guessing the issue of a lack of CPCs has bitten the previous owners before.

Possible solutions are:-

• Install a second CU with RCD protection and move circuits I work on to that
• Install a new CU and move everything to that (enclosure where current one is, DIN terminals, trunking to new, wire in singles) and then worry about other possible issues (not convinced the EICR is good, very limited IR testing done with the excuse of sensitive devices and some figures just don't add up)Under either of those, I'm pretty much going to have to rewire the up and downstairs lighting anyway because of the lack of CPC and work out the kinks in the ring final that is supposed to supply the sockets I'll be moving. And then I'd have to do the changes that hadn't been accommodated by the rewire of the lighting circuit.

All in all, neither of those two options gives me a warm fuzzy feeling and I'm not sure I'd be happy sticking my moniker on an EIC for the whole place if I changed the consumer unit. I know it's limited to the CU change, but you've still got to get the rest of the circuits up to snuff and that could be a pain in the posterior (not least because there are 3 unknown circuits - which Mr. EICR left connected for some reason).

The guy who did the EICR recommended a 5 year inspection period and I concur with that, based on what I saw I may well have even said 3 years (by virtue of the fact there are no IR readings, it's impossible to say).

I have one other option. The new owners moved in recently and are blitzing the place, so I could recommend a full rewire, especially as it seems like they aren't planning on moving again and are clearly spending on decorating and furnishing? If it was my place, that's what I would do. If it was family or a friend who'd bought it, that's what I'd recommend.

So the advice I need is mainly around timescales. It's a reasonably sized 4 bed (I think) built in the 50s, so most of it is proper brick and mortar, with real floorboards. CU in garage, looks to me like much of the wiring uses the cavity to get up to the first floor. But, it's been extended and certainly the ceiling of the bathroom on the first floor of the above garage extension is not exactly accessible. Suffice to say it's unlikely I'll be getting into that particular loft void, but it would be easily accessed with cable rods and a bit of fishing. The rest of the loft is boarded which hampers things and there is quite a nice office room up there as well, which further hampers access.

I have no one to help me and I know what a pig cable routing is, so my question is to all you guys who fly solo, how long would you think is reasonable to rewire the place? I know it's very hard without first hand knowledge and I would never quote a customer without seeing the job myself, but I'm just after a rough idea of whether the figure I have in my head is in the right ball park or not before I go back to the customer with their options. Also, would you do this solo? I could potentially get help from a subby, but then I've got the baggage of the CIS (is it?) tax rules and such like, which I have zero clue about.

Sorry for the lengthy post, but figured it best to provide a lot of the background. Also, am happy to be corrected if my assumptions about having to add RCD protection to the affected circuits is wrong.

 

[Midwest]

I think the first question is, how much furniture etc is in the house. Looks as if it's going to be a 'lived in' job, and sounds like it needs a rewire.

A lot of work for one person. I eventually did a rewire of a property on my own last year, that started off as a partial rewire. Took me about two weeks all in all, but the place was empty. I wouldn't take on a lived in rewire, especially on my own.

 

[telectrix]

i'd agree with the full rewire. on a job that size, i'd definitely want a 2nd pair of hands. as it's occupied. i's allow 3 - 4 weeks as a minimum, so around £4000- £5000 + materials.

 

[SparkyChick]

I think the first question is, how much furniture etc is in the house. Looks as if it's going to be a 'lived in' job, and sounds like it needs a rewire.

A lot of work for one person. I eventually did a rewire of a property on my own last year, that started off as a partial rewire. Took me about two weeks all in all, but the place was empty. I wouldn't take on a lived in rewire, especially on my own.

It's by no means fully furnished, especially up stairs as most of the bed rooms having nothing but fitted wardrobes, but yeah, I understand exactly what you're saying.

They are living there and the downstairs rooms looked quite packed in a couple of cases.

 

[SparkyChick]

i'd agree with the full rewire. on a job that size, i'd definitely want a 2nd pair of hands. as it's occupied. i's allow 3 - 4 weeks as a minimum, so around £4000- £5000 + materials.

That's what my head is telling me is the best solution for them, time wise we're in the same ball park as well.

 

[Leesparkykent]

About 1.5hours 1st and 2nd fix per point.

 

[Octopus]

I would talk openly about the options with the client..... If they are planning lots of work and improvements, and staying in the house a rewire makes some sense....

 

[SparkyChick]

About 1.5hours 1st and 2nd fix per point.

Is that 1.5 hours each for first and second or combined 1.5 in total?

 

[telectrix]

1.5 hours for both 1st and 2nd fix together seems reasonable to me. at my age though i'd allow 2 hours. back and knees slow me down.

 

[SparkyChick]

I would talk openly about the options with the client..... If they are planning lots of work and improvements, and staying in the house a rewire makes some sense....

I was just going to email a quote over to them, but I've been sat here thinking about it since I got back and an email is just wrong in this case, so I was planning on arranging a convenient time and going to see them both (wife commissioned the quote, hubby saw me today) with various pricing options, but in all honesty, right now I think the job is too big for me.

 

[Leesparkykent]

Is that 1.5 hours each for first and second or combined 1.5 in total?

Yeah as tel says for both together.

 

[Midwest]

Could ask them to shift their **** (don't forget the loft) and go on a lovely three week holiday somewhere

 

[The Ghost]

I would only do a re-wire on that. From what you describe it does not sound like it could be made right. You will need someone to pull/feed the cables. It can be done solo but takes a long time.

 

[Octopus]

Do you have an "experienced" mate you could team up with .... best way to learn!

 

[SparkyChick]

Do you have an "experienced" mate you could team up with .... best way to learn!

No, if I could afford to employ someone who is far more experienced than me to learn from I would

It's always been my intention to find a local college and set about getting the proper qualifications (2365, NVQ and AM2) to supplement me current boil in the bag collection. But there was no chance of that with the work/travel situation I had, at least now if I choose to take myself off to college one day a week I only have to answer to me. And ideally, I'd like to grow the business and take on a time served spark so I can become the apprentice Except of course without the "You're fired" when I screw up

 

[telectrix]

No, if I could afford to employ someone who is far more experienced than me to learn from I would

It's always been my intention to find a local college and set about getting the proper qualifications (2365, NVQ and AM2) to supplement me current boil in the bag collection. But there was no chance of that with the work/travel situation I had, at least now if I choose to take myself off to college one day a week I only have to answer to me. And ideally, I'd like to grow the business and take on a time served spark so I can become the apprentice Except of course without the "You're fired" when I screw up

you might find it advantageous to take on a semi-retired spark to assist with the bigger jobs. old buggers like me will settle for less than the going rate on a subbing basis.

 

[Midwest]

As much as it's tempting Sparkychick, some jobs you just got to pass by. If they were friends or family members, they might cut you some slack. Even the nicest of customers will become obnoxious, when things don't go to plan. Not worth the stress on your own, IMO.

 

[bigspark17]

Hi all,

I went to quote for some small changes this morning mainly lighting (removal of roses and replacement with wall lights, plus some additions and some socket moves). Sounded easy enough, but here's some background:-

• EICR done before the property was purchased, unsatisfactory - No CPCs on original lighting circuits (the one's I'd be working on), possible aluminium cable (although I'm not convinced - I think based on what I saw it's tinned copper imperial), no RCD protection on anything other than showers (40A MCB -> RCD -> One Shower and 40A MCB which supplies a second shower)
• Looks like some of the sockets being moved are spur off spur off spur (possibly with buried ring final connections or hidden JBs)
• No room in CU for RCDs (can't split load it) or RCBOs due to volume of wiring (several MCBs have multiple connections)
• No room around CU for replacement with bigger board due to electricity meter and gas meter locations
• Householder has expressed the view they won't be moving again

Before I even start looking at the lighting changes and socket moves, I need to address the lack of CPCs in the two affected lighting circuits and lack of RCD protection (because I'll be burying cables in walls less than 50mm deep and carrying out major changes to the circuits that supply the sockets so I need to add RCD to comply). The bulk of the existing CU seems to be taken up with lighting, so I'm guessing the issue of a lack of CPCs has bitten the previous owners before.

Possible solutions are:-

• Install a second CU with RCD protection and move circuits I work on to that
• Install a new CU and move everything to that (enclosure where current one is, DIN terminals, trunking to new, wire in singles) and then worry about other possible issues (not convinced the EICR is good, very limited IR testing done with the excuse of sensitive devices and some figures just don't add up)Under either of those, I'm pretty much going to have to rewire the up and downstairs lighting anyway because of the lack of CPC and work out the kinks in the ring final that is supposed to supply the sockets I'll be moving. And then I'd have to do the changes that hadn't been accommodated by the rewire of the lighting circuit.

All in all, neither of those two options gives me a warm fuzzy feeling and I'm not sure I'd be happy sticking my moniker on an EIC for the whole place if I changed the consumer unit. I know it's limited to the CU change, but you've still got to get the rest of the circuits up to snuff and that could be a pain in the posterior (not least because there are 3 unknown circuits - which Mr. EICR left connected for some reason).

The guy who did the EICR recommended a 5 year inspection period and I concur with that, based on what I saw I may well have even said 3 years (by virtue of the fact there are no IR readings, it's impossible to say).

I have one other option. The new owners moved in recently and are blitzing the place, so I could recommend a full rewire, especially as it seems like they aren't planning on moving again and are clearly spending on decorating and furnishing? If it was my place, that's what I would do. If it was family or a friend who'd bought it, that's what I'd recommend.

So the advice I need is mainly around timescales. It's a reasonably sized 4 bed (I think) built in the 50s, so most of it is proper brick and mortar, with real floorboards. CU in garage, looks to me like much of the wiring uses the cavity to get up to the first floor. But, it's been extended and certainly the ceiling of the bathroom on the first floor of the above garage extension is not exactly accessible. Suffice to say it's unlikely I'll be getting into that particular loft void, but it would be easily accessed with cable rods and a bit of fishing. The rest of the loft is boarded which hampers things and there is quite a nice office room up there as well, which further hampers access.

I have no one to help me and I know what a pig cable routing is, so my question is to all you guys who fly solo, how long would you think is reasonable to rewire the place? I know it's very hard without first hand knowledge and I would never quote a customer without seeing the job myself, but I'm just after a rough idea of whether the figure I have in my head is in the right ball park or not before I go back to the customer with their options. Also, would you do this solo? I could potentially get help from a subby, but then I've got the baggage of the CIS (is it?) tax rules and such like, which I have zero clue about.

Sorry for the lengthy post, but figured it best to provide a lot of the background. Also, am happy to be corrected if my assumptions about having to add RCD protection to the affected circuits is wrong.

How can the previous eicr tester give unsatisfactory and then recommend its not tested for another 5 yrs???!!

 

[SparkyChick]

How can the previous eicr tester give unsatisfactory and then recommend its not tested for another 5 yrs???!!

Because it's a big badge scheme cert which caveats that period with a statement to the effect that C1s will be dealt with immediately (there were none) and that C2s and FIs are dealt with without delay.

 

[SparkyChick]

As much as it's tempting Sparkychick, some jobs you just got to pass by. If they were friends or family members, they might cut you some slack. Even the nicest of customers will become obnoxious, when things don't go to plan. Not worth the stress on your own, IMO.

I had pretty much concluded this before I posted the OP, but was interested in the collective experience of you guys. As much as I don't want to turn it down because it could be a nice earner and if it went well a nice reputation builder in an affluent area of town, at this moment in my companies life, to take on a job of this magnitude would just be irresponsible.

 

[Leesparkykent]

I had pretty much concluded this before I posted the OP, but was interested in the collective experience of you guys. As much as I don't want to turn it down because it could be a nice earner and if it went well a nice reputation builder in an affluent area of town, at this moment in my companies life, to take on a job of this magnitude would just be irresponsible.

I wouldn't be put off rewiring this house if I was you. This is how you gain experience....From what I've seen from your posts you know what your on about and have a good understanding of the regs. Find a route up from the CU, start on the top floor and wire the top floor lighting, top floor flooring up and wire top floor sockets and ground floor lighting, down on to ground floor, flooring up and wire ground floor sockets and kitchen. You've said they are doing the house up so damage isn't really a problem. Get a youngster in to help pull the cables in, decent chaser with vacuum.....Jobs a goodun IMO.

 

[bigspark17]

Because it's a big badge scheme cert which caveats that period with a statement to the effect that C1s will be dealt with immediately (there were none) and that C2s and FIs are dealt with without delay.

That is dangerous in my opinion putting 5yrs on the cu sticker even though report says unsatisfactory, more clients will inly look at the cu sticker not the 7 page condition report. If i test a unsatisfactory installaion i put the sate tested and put "unsatisfactory" in the next test line.

If i were you sparkychick dont turn the job down, price for a rewire and see what they say!

 

[Rpa07]

I agree. Spend a little time trying to find a willing helper. Contacting an independent college (not always one full of 16year olds) that will have a mature learner with some experience behind but needs the opening to proper experience. Talk on the phone to a lecturer and ask if anyone jumps out that would benefit. Just a thought as when I was going through college that offer needed to come in.
You can do this, judging as said by the input you've added to this forum.

 

[Jay Sparks]

I remember taking a rewire job on a 4 bed property a few years ago. It was empty and there was a lot of space under the downstairs floor boards, so seemed a nice and easy job. Two weeks before the job was to start, I broke my foot! As I had already bought the gear, I didn't want to cancel the job so I got in touch with a friend of this very forum. Luckily he was free and that week so offered to help me out. I also roped my then 12 year old son in to help him with the lifting and fetching etc. Of course I was there, sat in my deck chair supervising etc.lol

I obviously had to pay my friend for the job but I still made a few quid and kept my reputation in tact. So see if there is any one on here that might be free to give you hand? They get a wage, customer gets a good job done and you grow your reputation and gain some experiance. Everyone's a winner!

Good Luck

Jay

 

[Midwest]

I had pretty much concluded this before I posted the OP, but was interested in the collective experience of you guys. As much as I don't want to turn it down because it could be a nice earner and if it went well a nice reputation builder in an affluent area of town, at this moment in my companies life, to take on a job of this magnitude would just be irresponsible.

As others have said, if you can get another pair of hands, then it would make sense to give it a go.

The rewire I did last year, on my own, empty house, very little furniture which took me about fourteen working days in all. It nearly killed me, running up and down stairs feeding cables etc. Had thighs like Linford Christie! Worked in the loft at the height of summer, with the itchy stuff, up & down the loft ladder. Initially, my lad said he would give me a hand for a couple of days pulling in cables, but his own work prevented that, from practically happening. Given the same situation, I would probably do it again. But not a lived in one with carpets & furniture.

Done rewires similar as yours, subbying for someone else, but always been 3 or 4 sparks. I think if you did do it on your own, you run the risk of tarnishing your reputation, instead of enhancing it. Its your decision, and personally I think you've made the right one.

 

[SparkyChick]

It's the fact they are in there that is putting me off I think, and obviously I've visited the place and had a pretty thorough look around, attic being boarded makes doing upstairs lights a real pain, ground floor sockets would have to come down from the ceiling void as the floor is solid downstairs.

I know when we had our place done (a housing association/council place), a team of 5 sparks descended on the place, we were here, but we'd had to literally empty the house and put almost everything in storage. 2 days it took them, but you could fit our house in the footprint of about half the place I'm looking at.

Thanks for all the kind words of support. It's not my knowledge or skills that's putting me off attempting it, it's my common sense around the logistics of it not being empty. If it was empty, I wouldn't be worrying about damaging live circuits (as I'd have disconnected the entire install), I wouldn't necessarily have to put boards down at the end of the day, you've got to make sure they have power at the end of each day. That's the side of it that's putting me off.

I'm going to mull it over some more. I guess the issue about getting help is, I'm not registered with the CIS and I'm not set up to be an employer, so there is that side of it to deal with as well as my insurance.

 

[Rpa07]

Could ask them to shift their **** (don't forget the loft) and go on a lovely three week holiday somewhere

I like midwests post. If this were at all possible after a discussion with them, it would make all the difference. Who doesn't want to go on a three weeker nearly paid for by the savings by not being there - it's a no brainer!

 

[Richard Burns]

I do think that a single person occupied rewire could be a long, slow and frustrating process, I would not take it on.
However you are the one to have seen the job and be able to assess what is required.
Imperial stranded PVC cable is now fairly old but does seem to stand up well to the passage of time and so I would not automatically recommend a rewire, but having said that in this case a building renovation is the best time to do it and the cables will probably not last forever. Aluminium cable I would recommend replacing.
Possibly just a provision of 4mm earthing across the lighting circuits may be easier.
RCD protection to changed circuits would be a no brainer really.
Depending on the socket circuit may be it could be repaired with probably some reasonably major work but less than a rewire.
Overall if you think a rewire is required then either get help (possibly independently employed) or arrange to be an assistant to another electrician just for the experience.
Then you can see if you should be bale to take on a similar job on your own later.
The other caveat is if they have already started decorating then all bets go out the window.

 

[SparkyChick]

A good starting point I think is to actually test the socket outlets and get a read on the IR of those (and others actually) because the EICR did not include any IR tests except on a couple of shower circuits.

RCD installation should be dead simple apart from the complete lack of room in the current CU so it's either new CU and move all to it (possible oil drum of worms) or new CU and move modified circuits to it, which could work but somehow feels less than professional.

On the addition of a CPC, my understanding was the new CPC should follow the same cable route as the existing cables. Is that not the case? And to be fair, if you're lifting boards etc. to run in a new cable, might as well do it properly and stick new 1.5mm T+E in as you're going to need to visit each accessory anyway.

I'm going to work out a series of options today and some rough pricing, then I'm off to see them this evening for what will no doubt be a fun filled chat.

Regarding your other caveat, they are working on decorating, but at the moment it seems to be mainly prep, lots of walls with no paper on although they have just had one skimmed and then asked if I could install a socket in... sure I can install a socket without damaging the new plaster, not sure how you expect me to get a cable to it though without the odd hole here and there.

 

[SparkyChick]

So, just thought I'd post a quick update on this...

Went to see them last night, a full rewire isn't out of the question. Asked if they were planning any big holidays soonish to which she replied "oh it doesn't matter, I've roughed it before, I can camp". Got grilled about making good on the lighting changes (when I'd already discussed it with her hubby). It's clear who wears the trousers in the household let me tell you!

Suffice to say, it all comes down to what I recommend, so no pressure. I suggested a logical way forward was to complete the testing the EICR is missing and that would serve as a good indication, she was quick to dismiss that idea with comments about the number of surveys and inspections they'd had (yeah, one electrical which isn't worth the paper it's written on). I get the feeling she's impatient and wants this work done ASAP, so no pressure.

Let's put it like this, I now feel like she's the kind that will come back and bite me if I don't suggest a full rewire and the place goes up in an electrical incident relating to the circuits I haven't touched.

He's a human being and a civil engineer, she I don't know what she does, but whatever it is, she's a real hard a$$... don't want to get on the wrong side of her because in her eyes, everything is a simple job... a phrase that cropped up a few times.

ARGH!!!!!!

So, I did a quick audit of all accessories last night and got a floor plan, so I'm going to price up several options and take it from there, but the less work I do for her the better in my opinion.

 

[Wilko]

Is that a light I see or is it the oncoming train
The "it's a simple job" and "I can camp" imo means a lack of experience (she's never seen a chaser in full attack mode) and empathy ("your job is so easy I could do it") on her part.
Perhaps protect yourself with T&C on your quote? Maybe unrestricted access to work once project has commenced and lost days charged at £day rate. Price to allow you to get in some help for the tough bits. Itemised list of deliverables. Sign off of a marked up plan for locations (I wanted this over there, not here, surely that was clear to you when I explained it...). Allow > 14 days from quote acceptance date till you start or have them sign a "just do it" waiver.

 

[SparkyChick]

Is that a light I see or is it the oncoming train
The "it's a simple job" and "I can camp" imo means a lack of experience (she's never seen a chaser in full attack mode) and empathy ("your job is so easy I could do it") on her part.
Perhaps protect yourself with T&C on your quote? Maybe unrestricted access to work once project has commenced and lost days charged at £day rate. Price to allow you to get in some help for the tough bits. Itemised list of deliverables. Sign off of a marked up plan for locations (I wanted this over there, not here, surely that was clear to you when I explained it...). Allow > 14 days from quote acceptance date till you start or have them sign a "just do it" waiver.

There's some great points in there, thanks @Wilko .

I've never seen a chaser in full attack mode to be fair, but am looking at purchasing one ahead of this job, along with a decent dust extractor/vacuum.

I already have a 14 day cool off in there (which they can escape if they confirm they wish to do so in writing/email). The pricing to get in help, I'm hoping to get some responses to my 'growing my business help needed' post so I can.

In terms of the plan, the instruction is (aside from the changes I have noted already as part of my original visit), where they are now.

The funny thing was, she asked me if I did rewire, would I then have to do more work making the changes she wanted? I'm like, you strike me as an intelligent (if not somewhat hard a$$ed) individual, why on earth do you think I'd not do the changes you want as part of a rewire??

 

[Midwest]

The chaser & vacuum thing; hired two which were absolute pants, and used one from the guy I was subbying for, which was really good, Metabo I think. Hardly any dust. Downside is the price, about £600. Idea if you do a lot of rewires, otherwise I'll just stick to me chaser, dust and loads of face masks etc.

Think your gonna have fun with this one, but as long as you make a good profit, awkward customers are just part of life's rich tapestry

 

[Richard Burns]

Wilko has raised some very good points.
Be prepared to suffer on this one. But I still wish you good luck.
One reason that you may not make the changes she wants during a rewire is that she has not yet told you all the changes she wants! But do not worry I am sure half way through when it is too late you might hear about these new changes.
One method of emphasising a point is to repeat it as a standard phrase during discussion. e.g if she is saying "simple job" then every time you refer to the job state "the extensive work of a rewire" or "this three week rewire", however it can come across as a bit aggressive, so take care. However do be definite about the fact that this is not a simple job or a quick job. Add more time to the quote.
Possibly agree a staged payment arrangement throughout the job so that they are aware of how much it is costing and so that you do get paid.

Good luck, plan well and be prepared to not take it on if it the working arrangement cannot work in your eyes.

 

[baldelectrician]

Although this looks as good experience I see alarms flashing and bells ringing.

I would quote this high and insist on a full rewire (for complete peace of mind), anything less may come back and bite you.

You may get away with not rewiring the shower circuits.

When you do a rewire you could replace the existing consumer unit with a splitter and relocate the consumer unit to a mutually accessible location agreed in advance.
I am doing this next month and there is a cupboard at the front door with the meter and the existing consumer unit. There is no room for a replacement unit there so I am moving it.

I will probably put a 63A double pole MCB in a decent size enclosure and have a 16mm armour feeding the new unit
The new unit will be under the stairs (next to the kitchen and easy trunking runs to the mid floor)

My only bit of advice- follow your gut instinct. If it was to run away unless a full rewire then leave them with a padded quote and wait and see.

I also point out that I am not a plasterer and give the client a number of one I know. I politely point out that as an electrician I specialise in electrics not plastering.

 

[SparkyChick]

I'd forgotten about this thread

The advice about being a spark not a plasterer, that's the exact same approach I take.

In this case, they wanted the CU in the same location but more accessible, the only glitch with that plan was the location of the gas meter and main gas pipe.

But, I looked to sub it out to a local firm and economically it didn't stack up for me (I was going to work for the experience with a more experienced firm) or for the client.

In the intervening time, I've been back (at their request) to fix a broken bathroom fan transformer and guess what... more decorating has been done, more furniture is slowly appearing. I had a brief discussion about pricing and got the distinct impression that a full rewire probably wasn't on the cards.

So I've walked away and with the consent of the company I was going to work with, passed their details on.

I'm missing out on valuable experience, but I just think it would be a nightmare job and I don't need nightmares at this early stage of the companies life.

Thanks for all the advice chaps, learned quite a bit just talking about it