Is this forum a good representation of the average electrician?

[HappyHippyDad]

I have now been working in this field for about 3 years (purely domestic) so I have come across a few electricians now, either on site or at the local wholesalers and also seen a reasonable amount of domestic installations.

I'm slowly beginning to think that the majority of electricians do not have a great deal of time for the regulations and just do their work the same way as they have always done it. This thread isn't supposed to be a criticism its more trying to get at the truth.

I suppose on a forum most people would not want to mention certain practises that might be frowned upon so perhaps its normal for a forum to talk about 'best practise' as if thats what normally happens.

I'm not even sure if I'm asking a question! It's just something I've been thinking about and wanted to air it. The tipping point was today when a number of electricians at the wholesalers I was at said they would just clip the meter tails to the outside wall (exiting an outside meter box, up the wall for about 2 meters). I was trying to get some 32mm conduit.

Further bits just off the top of my head:

1. Not installing RCD protection when the regs state you should (i.e mainly when adding bits to a bathroom or perhaps adding a socket (chased in)).
2. Junction boxes (normal ones - not MF) in ceilings (happens all the time).
3. Cables in loft just spread over joists.
4. SY cable without proper gland
5. BW glands used for SWA outside.
6. No certificate issued.
7. Work not notified
8. Crimped joints (which are extending cables) with insulation tape covering them (I have NEVER seen heatshrink used)
9. 16mm T&E used when tails >3m from cut out (6mm CPC used as main earth)

I'm not saying the above are wrong or right, I'm just saying thats what I see and thats what I hear amongst electricians. I'm sure many more practises could be added.

I suppose if I did have a question it would be as in the title of this thread?

 

[Marvo]

If this is a trade type discussion I can move it to the Arms if you like where it won't be public facing and you might get replies that are more honest.

 

[Jay Sparks]

In my job, I have to tell my apprentices to do the job "correctly" when uploading evidence. I know they have been asked to do things that are not "proper" lets say but for their evidence, it has to be spot on, (for example, I don't want to see an apprentice with a main fuse in their hand as evidence) but I bet most, if not all on here have done. I have been asked to work on live DB's on many occasions but I feel competent enough to do it safely, although this is frowned upon by a lot of electricians. I have also seen this sort of thing from many other electricians. On a public forum though, we have to talk about the "correct way" to do things because you any body could be reading it.

I suppose at the end of the day, if the work is done safely and it will stay safe, then it's the electricians call.

Jay

 

[HappyHippyDad]

If this is a trade type discussion I can move it to the Arms if you like where it won't be public facing and you might get replies that are more honest.

Ha
I was just that second thinking the same thing Marvo.
Yes please, move it to the Arms.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

In my job, I have to tell my apprentices to do the job "correctly" when uploading evidence. I know they have been asked to do things that are not "proper" lets say but for their evidence, it has to be spot on, (for example, I don't want to see an apprentice with a main fuse in their hand as evidence) but I bet most, if not all on here have done. I have been asked to work on live DB's on many occasions but I feel competent enough to do it safely, although this is frowned upon by a lot of electricians. I have also seen this sort of thing from many other electricians. On a public forum though, we have to talk about the "correct way" to do things because you any body could be reading it.

I suppose at the end of the day, if the work is done safely and it will stay safe, then it's the electricians call.

Jay

Very good point Jay.
Marvo is moving it to the Arms!

 

[Marvo]

It's in the Arms now so it's not visible to the public.

I think most of the examples you've given are down to quality of workmanship rather that actual electrical compliance. Quality of workmanship requires experience and pride and neither of those can be taught. The latter is simply a personality trait so I think looking at it just as electricians would be somewhat blinkered, it more of a society issue.

 

[Octopus]

I think the saying is "you can't teach an old dog new tricks"!

 

[Jay Sparks]

I think the saying is "you can't teach an old dog new tricks"!

This is a very true saying! Iv'e been trying this same principle on the wife, with no success!!lol

(sorry for dragging the thread down to this level)lol


Jay

 

[Octopus]

I think the reality is that most 15th ed or earlier sparks can't be arsxd about the trivialities of the 17th ed - and probably don't own a copy of the latest regs.

One of my mates, who has been a spark since he left school at 15 can't get his head around the recent updates......... which just about says it all.

One thing in favour of the scams, (it pains me to say this) but they do ask to see the latest regs books - yet nobody asks the "off radar" crew and they represent a great number of people ...... and then there are the East Europeans who .....

 

[HappyHippyDad]

It's in the Arms now so it's not visible to the public.

I think most of the examples you've given are down to quality of workmanship rather that actual electrical compliance. Quality of workmanship requires experience and pride and neither of those can be taught. The latter is simply a personality trait so I think looking at it just as electricians would be somewhat blinkered, it more of a society issue.

Thats an interesting point and I expect you are right Marvo. Society is getting bigger and faster and it may be harder to stick to your principles, or perhaps thats just an excuse. I always 'try' and think to myself that part of my 'payment' is in doing a job that I can look at and feel pleased with. I know that sounds a bit pretentious, but if it makes you happy to see a job you have done well then thats good for your life isn't it!

Christ, I'm living up to my name now!

 

[Jay Sparks]

Most of the lads i visit on site don't have an onsite guide, or even know what one looks like. That's shocking. These are young people, learning the trade and they don't even know what the regs are!!

 

[ImpededLoop]

There is a general lack of understanding of the regulations. People know most of the regulations but don't understand the reasons or theory behind them.

Some recent examples I've come across:

"Plastic capping has to be used as it is mechanical protection."

"The new regs say SWA has to have a separate cpc run alongside it."

"We need to run a 35mm earth to that plastic water main" (becomes copper after the stop cock).

 

[Richard Burns]

I think the forum members here will definitely be trying in most cases to present the compliant methods of working as to do otherwise would be a downgrade of the trade and on a public forum this wouldn't be good.

I am sure many electricians will take short cuts at times, however the better electrician will know when these short cuts may be "acceptable".
If one considers for example the non combustible issue of AMD3, most people realise it is farcical, but I will still comply with this from January, however I will still be prepared to consider a plastic CU in certain circumstances as it will not reduce the safety of the installation and so can be considered a departure (perhaps).
However on the forum I would advocate metal CU's

In the examples you have used above some of them are dangerous in certain circumstances, some of them are poor practice (which we know happens all the time) some of them are allowable.
The thing that annoys me is that these practices happen all the time and do not cause faults in the majority of cases, or at least not until the cheque has cleared! It is only alter that the problems occur, but even then not too often.

Also this forum represents those electricians who do want to get it right and will ask questions, those who do not care and do not ask questions will not be on a forum; or at least will leave soon after joining as they will not like the responses.

 

[Octopus]

Also this forum represents those electricians who do want to get it right and will ask questions, those who do not care and do not ask questions will not be on a forum; or at least will leave soon after joining as they will not like the responses.

^^^ WOT he said - and yes these ones are easy to spot by their replies as they try to justify bodges, digging deeper and deeper holes!

 

[telectrix]

i know. it's bloody terrible the way the trade has gone. on this page alone there are 4 members who can't be bothered to have a signature on their posts. :behead:

 

[Pete999]

It just goes to show how the trade has declined, perhaps a majority of the guys that HHD has come across are either DIYers or the dreaded (not allowed to say) but it ends in wonders, as I am out of the job market now it still saddens me to hear about some of the horrors that are about.

I had a part time job in a well known outlet that had a trade counter that only allowed Sparkies and Plumbers to shop there, wel I had to keep my gob shut most of the time when guys who professed to be Sparkies asked how to do this and that? and what should I use for this particular job? maybe thats why I packed it in after a few weeks, not really, got accused of bullying, so for the first time in my life I told them what they could do with the job. Sorry to go off topic.

 

[andyb]

i know. it's bloody terrible the way the trade has gone. on this page alone there are 4 members who can't be bothered to have a signature on their posts. :behead:

Signature?

 

[Octopus]

i know. it's bloody terrible the way the trade has gone. on this page alone there are 4 members who can't be bothered to have a signature on their posts. :behead:

That's me told off

 

[UNG]

One thing in favour of the scams, (it pains me to say this) but they do ask to see the latest regs books - yet nobody asks the "off radar" crew and they represent a great number of people ...... and then there are the East Europeans who .....

Having a copy of the latest regs is one thing, it doesn't mean you have to read them

I am sure many electricians will take short cuts at times, however the better electrician will know when these short cuts may be "acceptable".
If one considers for example the non combustible issue of AMD3, most people realise it is farcical, but I will still comply with this from January, however I will still be prepared to consider a plastic CU in certain circumstances as it will not reduce the safety of the installation and so can be considered a departure (perhaps).
However on the forum I would advocate metal CU's

I have to agree with you on the plastic CU "non combustible e.g. metal" has a lot to answer for when under the right circumstances installing a plastic CU is not and will not cause a problem but we have to follow that book!! and the whims of those that know!!!. I am quite bemused by the hype that amendment 3 has created on building related trade counters with notices relating to consumer units yet there is no mention of ensuring cables are properly clipped on exit routes I know which I think is more important, one of the reasons I do not like FP is that it's fire integrity and comparison with MI is so misunderstood and so many times it is not fixed in accordance with the manufacturers instructions when used on fire alarms


I think it is fair to say we all have our own methods and materials preferences which should end up at the same result as everyone else which is a safe and compliant installation, the problem is that everyone may and can interpret the regs differently so the actual installed material choices may have a wide variation although the end result works only time and the longevity of the installation will tell how good the overall workmanship is

 

[HappyHippyDad]

i know. it's bloody terrible the way the trade has gone. on this page alone there are 4 members who can't be bothered to have a signature on their posts. :behead:

You know Tel... I thought and thought about a signiature a couple of years back but they all just sounded silly so I gave up!

 

[Spoon]

You know Tel... I thought and thought about a signiature a couple of years back but they all just sounded silly so I gave up!

What do you mean.... Mine is brill...

 

[telectrix]

surely you mean "bwill".

 

[Spoon]

surely you mean "bwill".

lmao... sowwr Tel...

 

[7029 dave]

Em, yes very good question. I started out on the 14th regs edition, and have seen many changes in this industry over the years, but as an professional tradesman on this forum standards to current regs have to be complied to.However over time I feel have the experience, when necessary and certain situations to bow with the breeze when current regs are concerned. Why am I saying this because yes not doing it anymore.?Then again just an observation on this forum with some, folk are almost to scared and not confident with the most basic of tasks.Not any criticism just noticeable.

 

[markc123]

I'm a relative new comer to most of you guys, only starting on the 16th.

Theres a massive difference between bad practice and unsafe practice. I know electricians who are bloody clued up, but their work looks like a dogs dinner ... now i don't actually have a problem with this, as long as its safe and complies with the up to date regulations then thats up to them - and if they have customers who are happy with their work then leave them be. It's when you get to the other end of the spectrum and the down right dangerous works you come across, these are the morons that need there heads banging together.

The JIB has such an easy system for electricians:

1. Technician Electrician
2. Approved Electrician
3. Electrician
4. Apprentice Electrician

Why this isn't compulsory, like the gas safety register, is beyond me. You know where you stand with that list, and who is capable of doing what.

 

[telectrix]

that's far too simple for the powers that be. all has to be fudged under part pee and silly amendments to the regs.